I guess Switzerland is usually not on the right side of history.
You can be critical of many things Israel does but banning Hamas doesn't seem like a terrible move to me
Are you really saying that Israel really needed Switzerland's help when they've been running an open air prison for decades? They've never needed help against Hamas.
Which part of my statement makes you think I'm saying that? All I said is banning terrorist party = good.
The thing is: Hamas is the only organization actually doing anything for the Palestinian cause (remember 2021). I also find the designation terrorist group pretty biased towards the US (the attack's details are still up in the air, and otherwise they're using questionable means to fight an occupier), but either way "ban Hamas" does nothing but reaffirm the status quo. Anyone designating Hamas as a terrorist group has to do the same for Israel, because they do everything Hamas is criticized for doing, only on a larger scale and with a lot more dead people.
Are you seriously questioning the designation of Hamas as a terrorist group?
What. The. Fuck. Is. Wrong. With. You?
Israel is occupying Palestine. Netanyahu's government is implementing collective punishment. The IDF have killed 10x as many civilians as Hamas. And Hamas is a terrorist organization.
AFAIK Hamas has mostly been doing rocket attacks since 2006, which are pretty questionable but have a clear military purpose.
I wouldn't say "clear."
Yes, missiles are weapons more associated with military operations than terrorism.
But Hamas doesn't perform "military operations" AFAIK. They don't "advance" on areas or take cities or any other goal I associate with military offensives.
The strategy, from what I can tell, is to launch missiles at civilians in order to terrorize Israel. It's just terrorism with missiles.
(And yeah, while the IDF does appear to have more traditional military operations, it is also clear that terrorizing Palestine is a specific goal. They also deserve the title.)
Yes, missiles are weapons more associated with military operations than terrorism.
But Hamas doesn’t perform “military operations” AFAIK. They don’t “advance” on areas or take cities or any other goal I associate with military offensives.
The missiles force Israel to use the iron dome, which makes sense from an attrition perspective. Also they sometimes use large amounts of them to get concessions out of Israel (see: 2021). They're basically what gives Hamas teeth in this conflict.
Hamas rips up pipe to make rockets, and steals construction supplies to make tunnels.
The pipe and supplies that are supposed to help Palestinians live and survive without disease.
So that Hamas can apply pressure to ISRAEL for the Palestinian conditions?
Myself and literally everyone I know want to support the Palestinians. And it's impossible to support them while Hamas (or another jihadist organization) is there.
Myself and literally everyone I know want to support the Palestinians. And it’s impossible to support them while Hamas (or another jihadist organization) is there.
What's preventing you from supporting Palestine is Israel, who wants to keep Palestinians divided so they can claim there's no representative of the Palestinian people and therefore they can't negotiate for peace. For context, Gaza was first blockaded in 2005, before Hamas's election.
Also another question: Then what about the West Bank? The PNA, which has denounced nonviolence for 30 years, is the one in charge there, yet they're still being ethnically cleansed. That's how Hamas got in charge.
You're correct on most things.
Thanks for thinking for yourself.
Hamas has singlehandedly set back the prospects for a Palestinian state for years, maybe decades. It's really ironic that you believe they do anything to help Palestinians. Also they are the ones who have the biggest interest in getting as many Palestinian people killed by Israel as they possibly can. They do so by preventing them from leaving and using them as human shields for their military installations.
Hamas has singlehandedly set back the prospects for a Palestinian state for years, maybe decades.
They've been set back since Netenyahu got elected in 1996. That's the moment when peace failed; everything that came after was farces, and the result of that was Hamas winning the election in 2006.
You can go back and forth, decade for decade to the creation of the state of Israel and infinitely point fingers at either side on why palestinian statehood never became a thing. Fact is, it won't be a thing in the foreseeable future and the good will and sympathy that the people in Gaza had with many Israeli probably suffered a lot as well. And no one in their right mind can argue that the Palestinians in Gaza wouldn't be better off if they were governed by literally anyone else than a terror org that is functionally an Iranian proxy.
it won’t be a thing in the foreseeable future and the good will and sympathy that the people in Gaza had with many Israeli probably suffered a lot as well.
Does goodwill that doesn't translate into action even matter? I mean the only time they elected a guy who was willing to solve the whole thing he was assassinated and Netanyahu came in his place. This is like saying the Irish lost the British's sympathy because of the troubles, which is like yeah I guess but unless that goodwill generates action it doesn't matter. Important historical context here is that Israel never came to the negotiation table without use of force by Palestinians. Even the Oslo accords only came by because of the first intifada.
That is to say, Hamas's approach doesn't have good odds of success, but it's good a much better shot than whatever the PNA is doing in the West Bank, and Israel has created a situation where only these two options exist.
Hamas literally ran politically as MODERATES. They've gone full jihadist. Without democratic process to keep the structure honest no party can be trusted.
What? Idk what the specifics of their platform were, but Hamas's general platform was "10 years of peace and we got nothing, 5 years of fighting and we freed Gaza".
I guess Switzerland is usually not on the right side of history.
You can be critical of many things Israel does but banning Hamas doesn't seem like a terrible move to me
Are you really saying that Israel really needed Switzerland's help when they've been running an open air prison for decades? They've never needed help against Hamas.
Which part of my statement makes you think I'm saying that? All I said is banning terrorist party = good.
@100_percent_a_bot @Phanatik Funny how Israel's terrorist party is getting a pass
Is this terrorist party in a room with us right now?
@100_percent_a_bot https://www.wsj.com/video/airstrike-hits-convoy-of-gaza-civilians-fleeing-south/3F735CB9-1162-4304-A1B0-FF4232A38AD7
Is this something about a terrorist Israel party in Switzerland? No? OK then
@100_percent_a_bot https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-disciplines-israeli-minister-who-voiced-openness-hypothetical-nuclear-2023-11-05/
Clearly you've been distracted by something shiny. This is the issue at hand.
Bro you have brain worms. It's OK, things will be fine when current thing is over and next thing comes around
@100_percent_a_bot No, you're just ignorant of the situation and willfully so. You'll get it eventually.
I'm well aware of the messed up shit that Israel is doing, are you at all aware of what Hamas is doing to its own people?
@100_percent_a_bot Tell us what you're aware of about Israel as you haven't shown any more awareness than a rock
The thing is: Hamas is the only organization actually doing anything for the Palestinian cause (remember 2021). I also find the designation terrorist group pretty biased towards the US (the attack's details are still up in the air, and otherwise they're using questionable means to fight an occupier), but either way "ban Hamas" does nothing but reaffirm the status quo. Anyone designating Hamas as a terrorist group has to do the same for Israel, because they do everything Hamas is criticized for doing, only on a larger scale and with a lot more dead people.
Are you seriously questioning the designation of Hamas as a terrorist group?
What. The. Fuck. Is. Wrong. With. You?
Israel is occupying Palestine. Netanyahu's government is implementing collective punishment. The IDF have killed 10x as many civilians as Hamas. And Hamas is a terrorist organization.
AFAIK Hamas has mostly been doing rocket attacks since 2006, which are pretty questionable but have a clear military purpose.
I wouldn't say "clear."
Yes, missiles are weapons more associated with military operations than terrorism.
But Hamas doesn't perform "military operations" AFAIK. They don't "advance" on areas or take cities or any other goal I associate with military offensives.
The strategy, from what I can tell, is to launch missiles at civilians in order to terrorize Israel. It's just terrorism with missiles.
(And yeah, while the IDF does appear to have more traditional military operations, it is also clear that terrorizing Palestine is a specific goal. They also deserve the title.)
The missiles force Israel to use the iron dome, which makes sense from an attrition perspective. Also they sometimes use large amounts of them to get concessions out of Israel (see: 2021). They're basically what gives Hamas teeth in this conflict.
Hamas rips up pipe to make rockets, and steals construction supplies to make tunnels.
The pipe and supplies that are supposed to help Palestinians live and survive without disease.
So that Hamas can apply pressure to ISRAEL for the Palestinian conditions?
Myself and literally everyone I know want to support the Palestinians. And it's impossible to support them while Hamas (or another jihadist organization) is there.
What's preventing you from supporting Palestine is Israel, who wants to keep Palestinians divided so they can claim there's no representative of the Palestinian people and therefore they can't negotiate for peace. For context, Gaza was first blockaded in 2005, before Hamas's election.
Also another question: Then what about the West Bank? The PNA, which has denounced nonviolence for 30 years, is the one in charge there, yet they're still being ethnically cleansed. That's how Hamas got in charge.
You're correct on most things.
Thanks for thinking for yourself.
Hamas has singlehandedly set back the prospects for a Palestinian state for years, maybe decades. It's really ironic that you believe they do anything to help Palestinians. Also they are the ones who have the biggest interest in getting as many Palestinian people killed by Israel as they possibly can. They do so by preventing them from leaving and using them as human shields for their military installations.
They've been set back since Netenyahu got elected in 1996. That's the moment when peace failed; everything that came after was farces, and the result of that was Hamas winning the election in 2006.
You can go back and forth, decade for decade to the creation of the state of Israel and infinitely point fingers at either side on why palestinian statehood never became a thing. Fact is, it won't be a thing in the foreseeable future and the good will and sympathy that the people in Gaza had with many Israeli probably suffered a lot as well. And no one in their right mind can argue that the Palestinians in Gaza wouldn't be better off if they were governed by literally anyone else than a terror org that is functionally an Iranian proxy.
Does goodwill that doesn't translate into action even matter? I mean the only time they elected a guy who was willing to solve the whole thing he was assassinated and Netanyahu came in his place. This is like saying the Irish lost the British's sympathy because of the troubles, which is like yeah I guess but unless that goodwill generates action it doesn't matter. Important historical context here is that Israel never came to the negotiation table without use of force by Palestinians. Even the Oslo accords only came by because of the first intifada.
That is to say, Hamas's approach doesn't have good odds of success, but it's good a much better shot than whatever the PNA is doing in the West Bank, and Israel has created a situation where only these two options exist.
Hamas literally ran politically as MODERATES. They've gone full jihadist. Without democratic process to keep the structure honest no party can be trusted.
What? Idk what the specifics of their platform were, but Hamas's general platform was "10 years of peace and we got nothing, 5 years of fighting and we freed Gaza".
They are on the side of money. Nazis had money, Israel has money, Palestine has no money. They just fancy hillbillies
Hey look! Here's proof! A tunnel that we built decades ago! See? There's no proof anyone was in there, but still... A tunnel! Nefarious, isn't it?
That's what being neutral means.