France votes to ban ‘forever chemicals,’ exempting frying pans

MicroWave@lemmy.world to World News@lemmy.world – 577 points – France votes to ban ‘forever chemicals,’ exempting frying pans
politico.eu

The French National Assembly on Thursday unanimously adopted a bill aimed at restricting the manufacture and sale of products containing per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances — also known as PFAS or “forever chemicals.” The MPs, backed by the government, voted to exclude kitchen utensils from the scope of the text.

Thanks to an intense lobbying push, manufacturers of frying pans and saucepans — including the SEB group, which owns Tefal — are exempt from this ban under the proposed law penned by French Green MPs.

Majority groups initially tried to delay the ban on kitchen utensils until 2030 — a timetable refused by the French Green MPs who instead suggested an exemption until 2026.

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Actually it's in a lot of food wrappers.

And those aren't as durable as cooking utensils. If you don't scratch your pan with a metal fork and don't use it for two decades, it's apparently somewhat safe. Not according to the companies, I'm not shilling, Last Week Tonight had a point about it on their episode about PFA's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W74aeuqsiU

I'd personally love to not consume any fucking PFAS, but I also understand that this French thing is still a massive step forwards for regulations on the matter.

Tldr it's still a win

That stuff sticks to (aka reacts with) literally nothing. That's the point of it. The whole innovation of nonstick cookware was the fact they got it to stick to something. It’s not even dangerous if you ingest it, it doesn’t react with anything so it just comes back out.

What IS dangerous is the by products and intermediate products, as well as the stuff that comes off if you overheat it. (And also, like you said, when they get old)

This whole movement against non-stick is alright, but so many people do it for the wrong reasons. If you have nonstick, just use it and don’t buy nonstick next time. Throwing away perfectly fine cookware like that is like boycotting charmin by flushing down all your remaining rolls in one go and going to the store to buy new toilet paper from another brand.

so it just comes back out.

Eh... does it?

https://www.businessinsider.com/chart-how-long-hazardous-forever-chemicals-pfas-stay-in-blood-2023-3

It can take five hours for your body to filter half the amount of caffeine or alcohol you've consumed from your blood. LSD is a bit faster at three hours.

BPA has a similar half-life to caffeine and alcohol, but arsenic can take up to 10 hours.

Toxic metals like lead or radioactive polonium, take months to halfway leave your blood.

But PFAS surpass all of these other substances. Some of the PFAS that have been studied — PFOA, PFOS, and PFHS — can take over seven years to reduce by half in your bloodstream. It's no wonder they're called "forever chemicals."

I still use my non-sticks, but like you said, I'm gonna buy non-PFAS cookware the next time I need to. I'm in no panic about my pans. What people probably should pay more attention to is PFAS in clothing. This might be a tad sensationalist as The Guardian often is, but eh, with a grain of salt: https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2023/jul/02/fashion-chemicals-pfas-bpa-toxic

Yes, the final product comes back out. The final product is PTFE, not PFAS. PTFE is harmless unless degraded or overheated (which is why you shouldn’t do that with non-stick cookware).

To produce PTFE, PFAS are used (or are intermediaries in the process), which is why the production is dangerous, but the product isn’t.

#Some of the PFAS that have been studied — PFOA, PFOS, and PFHS — can take over seven years to reduce by half in your bloodstream. It's no wonder they're called "forever chemicals."

There’s no PTFE in that list.

So?

We're not talking excretion, we're talking blood half-life.

Too complex a distinction for a corporate shill?

Hey, it’s me, your friendly neighbourhood corporate shill, telling you to not buy any more nonstick cookware because I love Tefal so much. More for me!

But seriously, I’m not disputing that the chemicals you listed are bad, just that the coating itself doesn’t affect you.

PFAS bad, but only there during production. PTFE fine, and that’s what’s on your pan. PTFE does not get into your blood. Any PTFE you consume comes back out, because it is not PFAS.

TL;DR: use pan until pan bad, then buy pan with no PTFE.

Do you understand the difference between excretion and half-life?

Do you understand that anything that has a half-life of SEVERAL YEARS in the blood and is fairly novel and hasn't been studied for long term effects of exposure on humans, should be something which you avoid having in your blood?

It's like when tobacco companies put asbestos in cigarettes to "filter" them.

https://www.asbestos.com/products/cigarette-filters/

But yeah, tldr I can agree with

You haven’t shown the half-life of PTFE lol

PFAS is a group of substances, not a substance.

PTFE is Teflon. Weird how someone would shill for DuPont, right?

https://theintercept.com/2015/08/11/dupont-chemistry-deception/

People like you fucking disgust me. Either you're willfully ignorant or maliciously so. Both are equally pathetic.

Wait up, I just checked and you’re technically right - PTFE is definitely a PFAS. Dunno if it’s dangerous or frequently breaks down into dangerous PFAS, but FWIW I’ve long suspected that nonstick pans can’t be good for you. I’ve never seen a nonstick pan that doesn’t have a single scratch in anyone’s kitchen before.

You could probably stand to improve the clarity of your arguments though haha

People like you fucking disgust me. Either you're willfully ignorant or maliciously so. Both are equally pathetic.

Not gonna get very far talking to people like that. Lucky for you I empathize with your intentions,

I hate to step in here, because I fear you're not interested in a discussion, but chemistry is very sensitive to small changes. You can't just notice that two chemicals are related or similar and assume they behave similarly in all situations. It literally takes a degree in chemistry to look at a molecule and start making guesses about its properties.

Then we throw in the fact that we're interested in how these chemicals behave inside your body and it becomes a whole other level of complex. Guessing is practically out the window, as far as I'm concerned, unless you've got some key functional group that stays consistent and exposed whose interactions you already understand. Your body has so many different chemical systems you just plain can't assume similar chemicals will have similar behavior.

Hate to step in here, but you both think PFAS is a substance. It's a group of substances that INCLUDES PTFE.

You'd have better luck of "uhm actuallying" a sixth third grade lesson.

Yeah that's a good point, that's my bad. Polymers isn't my specialty.

[...] and don't use it for two decades, [...]

You mean that a pan has to age? Or is it a burn.

My point was that when the pan gets old and the non-stick parts starts going, you shouldn't still keep it for 10 years afterwards.

It's a pretty common thing I've seen, people not bothering to buy new pans when old ones get worn out.

So if one is trying to avoid exposure, keep your pans in good shape

Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

It read like we should age the pans before use like a fine wine. But this makes way more sense.