On a political spectrum, the term libertarian should relate to anti-authoritarian. So, I can see how the case can be made against socialized healthcare for them. It's not really about true freedom or liberty. And in the US anyway, it's largely just facade co-opted by the fascist [authoritarian and wealthy] right wing, ironically.
The word "Libertarian" in US has less relation to the dictionary definition than "Republican" and "Democrat". These are names of parties over here, even if they have a namesake of governmental mechanisms.
Examples:
Ron Johnson said in a single breath that he was a libertarian and opposed the legalization of marijuana.
Find the average "libertarian" policy position on border policies.
US politics is unfortunately entrenched in tribalism rather than searching for the right tool to match a job or solve a problem and maximize outcomes, the libertarians over here are no exception.
Big L little l.
Big L is the party - and yeah, it's just Republicans in a different T-shirt.
Little l is the ideology, which in many ways matches up with what I think, but to get there you need so many social programs to put people on even ground that we should have but don't. Universal healthcare being only one of so, so, so many.
Edit: And just to add, I think Rand was just a precursor to the Big L Libertarians, and little to nothing to do with the little l. You can have true individual liberty without the protections and support to enable those liberties.
What's your definition of liberty here? Just the absence of constraints? As in to be free from sth., opposed to being free to do sth.?
If it is, then sure you can have individual liberty. It's just (almost) utterly useless. Or do I not get your point here?
I think you're missing my point, yes.
Equality in the law, freedom of association, civil liberties, etc., etc. while technically in the US we "have" these freedoms, in reality we do not - we are subject to capitalism with regulatory capture, fines that unfairly punish the poor, so on. I'm on a phone, so I'm not typing out a dissertation.
Probably the best reference would be libertarian socialism or libertarian communism. The right wing Libertarian movement (which is dominant in the US) is really anarchi-capitalism, which is the complete opposite direction of left libertarianism (which is anti-capitalist).
Anyway, yes, there are a variety of ways freedoms are limited by simply being unable to afford things, or even being put into a position where you don't have the time to dedicate to those things. To me, that's fundamentally wrong.
That's what I summarised, aside from the us-centric references. I still don't quite understand the emphasis on "true individual liberty", what that should entail and the meaning of it for the discussion. I agree with everything else you said, that part just isn't clear to me.
It’s not really about true freedom or liberty.
I think the terms that you are instead looking for are positive and negative liberty. Libertarianism, generally, aligns with negative liberty. Universal healthcare is an example of positive liberty.
And in the US anyway, it’s largely just facade co-opted by the fascist [authoritarian and wealthy] right wing, ironically.
An unfortunate outcome that should be resisted.
That categorization is really helpful for understanding this mindset, thanks!
You are welcome 🙂
On a political spectrum, the term libertarian should relate to anti-authoritarian
Sure, but we're not on a political spectrum. Political names are codified as part of a propaganda campaign advanced by the original party leaders. Democrats, Republicans, Greens, Libertarians, Constitution Party, Reformers, Socialists (both National and International) are - at their heart - marketing taglines, fully divorced from the beliefs and policies of their constituencies.
Ron Johnson said in a single breath that he was a libertarian and opposed the legalization of marijuana.
He's only the latest iteration. I might send you back to Murray Rothbard and Ludwig Von Mises, the OG American Anarcho-Capitalists, both of which had some bizarre theories about what constituted "small government" from the perspective of a Washington DC insider.
Marijuana consumption, much like miscegenation and immigration and unionization, might seem at first glance to be a consequence of independent human agency. But they all carry potential social consequences, particularly against individuals with claim on private property.
By getting high, you're turning yourself into a public nuisance - possibly even a violent threat - to your landlords. By crossing international borders, you are acting as a member of an invading army and threatening the economic livelihood of prior landed gentry. By unionizing, you are forming a labor cartel - almost certainly crafted through the violent agitation of wicked foreign governments employing the mind-altering ideology of Marxist-Leninism. By miscegenating, you are robbing me of the commodity of a virginal daughter to be traded on the open market.
All of these are acts of violence that threaten the property and security of the rightful landed man. We must rely on the good, honest, well-trained battalion of law enforcement officers in order to uphold the security of that property.
US politics is unfortunately entrenched in tribalism rather than searching for the right tool to match a job or solve a problem and maximize outcomes
The US is focused first and foremost on the claim to private property and the fruitful extraction of wealth from that property. Libertarianism, as an ideology, revolves around defining the extent to which individuals can go in defending that property from evil foreign aggressors and corrupted domestic residents. It endorses a state solely for the upholding of this ideology.
On a political spectrum, the term libertarian should relate to anti-authoritarian. So, I can see how the case can be made against socialized healthcare for them. It's not really about true freedom or liberty. And in the US anyway, it's largely just facade co-opted by the
fascist[authoritarian and wealthy] right wing, ironically.The word "Libertarian" in US has less relation to the dictionary definition than "Republican" and "Democrat". These are names of parties over here, even if they have a namesake of governmental mechanisms.
Examples:
Ron Johnson said in a single breath that he was a libertarian and opposed the legalization of marijuana.
Find the average "libertarian" policy position on border policies.
US politics is unfortunately entrenched in tribalism rather than searching for the right tool to match a job or solve a problem and maximize outcomes, the libertarians over here are no exception.
Big L little l.
Big L is the party - and yeah, it's just Republicans in a different T-shirt.
Little l is the ideology, which in many ways matches up with what I think, but to get there you need so many social programs to put people on even ground that we should have but don't. Universal healthcare being only one of so, so, so many.
Edit: And just to add, I think Rand was just a precursor to the Big L Libertarians, and little to nothing to do with the little l. You can have true individual liberty without the protections and support to enable those liberties.
What's your definition of liberty here? Just the absence of constraints? As in to be free from sth., opposed to being free to do sth.?
If it is, then sure you can have individual liberty. It's just (almost) utterly useless. Or do I not get your point here?
I think you're missing my point, yes.
Equality in the law, freedom of association, civil liberties, etc., etc. while technically in the US we "have" these freedoms, in reality we do not - we are subject to capitalism with regulatory capture, fines that unfairly punish the poor, so on. I'm on a phone, so I'm not typing out a dissertation.
Probably the best reference would be libertarian socialism or libertarian communism. The right wing Libertarian movement (which is dominant in the US) is really anarchi-capitalism, which is the complete opposite direction of left libertarianism (which is anti-capitalist).
Anyway, yes, there are a variety of ways freedoms are limited by simply being unable to afford things, or even being put into a position where you don't have the time to dedicate to those things. To me, that's fundamentally wrong.
That's what I summarised, aside from the us-centric references. I still don't quite understand the emphasis on "true individual liberty", what that should entail and the meaning of it for the discussion. I agree with everything else you said, that part just isn't clear to me.
I think the terms that you are instead looking for are positive and negative liberty. Libertarianism, generally, aligns with negative liberty. Universal healthcare is an example of positive liberty.
An unfortunate outcome that should be resisted.
That categorization is really helpful for understanding this mindset, thanks!
You are welcome 🙂
Sure, but we're not on a political spectrum. Political names are codified as part of a propaganda campaign advanced by the original party leaders. Democrats, Republicans, Greens, Libertarians, Constitution Party, Reformers, Socialists (both National and International) are - at their heart - marketing taglines, fully divorced from the beliefs and policies of their constituencies.
He's only the latest iteration. I might send you back to Murray Rothbard and Ludwig Von Mises, the OG American Anarcho-Capitalists, both of which had some bizarre theories about what constituted "small government" from the perspective of a Washington DC insider.
Marijuana consumption, much like miscegenation and immigration and unionization, might seem at first glance to be a consequence of independent human agency. But they all carry potential social consequences, particularly against individuals with claim on private property.
By getting high, you're turning yourself into a public nuisance - possibly even a violent threat - to your landlords. By crossing international borders, you are acting as a member of an invading army and threatening the economic livelihood of prior landed gentry. By unionizing, you are forming a labor cartel - almost certainly crafted through the violent agitation of wicked foreign governments employing the mind-altering ideology of Marxist-Leninism. By miscegenating, you are robbing me of the commodity of a virginal daughter to be traded on the open market.
All of these are acts of violence that threaten the property and security of the rightful landed man. We must rely on the good, honest, well-trained battalion of law enforcement officers in order to uphold the security of that property.
The US is focused first and foremost on the claim to private property and the fruitful extraction of wealth from that property. Libertarianism, as an ideology, revolves around defining the extent to which individuals can go in defending that property from evil foreign aggressors and corrupted domestic residents. It endorses a state solely for the upholding of this ideology.