Eh... There are a variety of end-runs around this mechanism.
Hiring politicians on as lobbyists or allowing friends and family to sit on private run boards and trusts can create a back channel for money to flow into a politician's pockets. Public money can be funneled into private profits for which the supporting politicians are also stockholders. And politicians can receive discounted/free services from friendly private sector constituencies. FOX News, the classic example, is a multi-billion dollar network dedicated to running Republican-friendly media. But when corporate lobbyists and political strategists can be found everywhere from the boards of NPR/PBS to the guest chairs of MSNBC to the editorial rooms of the WaPo/WSJ/NYT, there's really no safe spaces left.
You can mitigate the direct "bag of cash for favors" effect that, say, John Boehner cutting tobacco lobbyist checks on the floor of the House has produced in the past. But you can't keep public sector administrators from finding ways to receive kickbacks via private sector channels unless you completely divorce these institutions.
Eh… There are a variety of end-runs around this mechanism.
There are any number of hypothetical end-runs around just about anything you can think of, that doesn't make protections, mechanisms, controls, or safeties useless.
In the US, political bribery is nearly 100% legal. I'd rather have some hoops for corrupt officials to jump through. We don't even make them break a sweat in this country.
There are any number of hypothetical end-runs
Not even hypothetical. We just had the SCOTUS kick down the door on legal bribery in Snyder v United States.
I’d rather have some hoops for corrupt officials to jump through
I mean, if we've got a magic lamp I can do better than a few hoops. But the system is of the corrupt, by the corrupt, for the corrupt.
At some point, you're forced to recognized the farce of democracy at work.
IIRC, people were talking about places in this thread that aren't the US.
As stated, political bribery in the US is nearly 100% legal. You can even study it in school and make a career out of it.
The Canadian system has it's own share of corruption and bribery. Just check out Rob Ford, ffs.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that even discussing real or hypothetical measures to reign in corruption is inherently worthless because you can sometimes get around some of them.
I hate the US "either we solve everything, or nothing is worth doing" mindset that's pervasive in this country, and the only reason I responded is because you're providing a good example of it.
I hate the US “either we solve everything, or nothing is worth doing” mindset
I'm not a big fan of people wish casting naive solutions and then getting hostile when they hear the solutions aren't viable.
You can make this same, tired, ultimately invalid argument about anything you look to improve.
You can't prevent the spread of all communicable disease, so why bother taking any precautions?
Someone could build their own gun, so why bother preventing a convicted felon from buying an oozie?
Someone could evade a line item tax by hiring a fancy lawyer and setting up bespoke legal structures around themselves as an entity, so why bother looking at closing any of the existing tax loopholes?
The answer is that because it's not fucking all or nothing. Sure, someone could hypothetically do lots of things to evade any precaution that you put in place around dangerous or bad things, but that doesn't mean it's completely ineffective. If it's too much of a hassle, some people won't bother. Some people will actually get caught. Hell, with the existing lax corruption laws and lazy ass enforcement in the US people are still sometimes found in violation of them.
It isn't a "if you ain't first you're last" situation. Reasonable safeguards, laws, standards, practices, and the like save and improve lives.
ultimately invalid argument
This isn't about arguing. The arguments we make don't impact public policy.
Agreed, so why squabble with people pointing out that the US is more corrupt than other countries? It is.
And it's more corrupt because not only are we more accepting of corruption, but "we" (like you) largely don't believe in incremental change or taking small measures to problem reduction...we largely believe in our version of "superman" arriving...I dunno what your thoughts actually are...maybe some gay space communism revolution that'll never occur?
I gotta tell ya at this point we're much more likely to get full, mask-off fascism complete with gas chambers than we are to get any kind of communist revolution in the US.
why squabble with people pointing out that the US is more corrupt than other countries?
I started out illustrating instances in which politicians could end-run a simple bribery ban and it got dismissed as a uniquely American problem.
And it’s more corrupt because not only are we more accepting of corruption
I don't think the US voter base is any more accepting of corruption than any other constituency. The courts are more accepting of corruption, but that's largely because they are insulated from any kind of oversight or accountability.
I gotta tell ya at this point we’re much more likely to get full, mask-off fascism complete with gas chambers than we are to get any kind of communist revolution in the US.
We've had periods of mask-off fascism in the US going back centuries. From Indian Reservations to Jim Crow to Japanese Internment to Gitmo detention to kids stuffed into concentration camps on the US/Mexico border. But there are plenty of Americans who have lived through these periods and never really acknowledged it. That's what allows fascism in the US to infest the body politic and to endure from generation to generation.
Meanwhile, we've inoculated ourselves against any kind of mass labor movement with the most hysterical media and legal response to organized workers. Every AES state is a deplorable hell-hole, because some industry unionized or popular local leader took the reins from a failing foreign corporate interest. Every domestic labor movement is simultaneously described as a bunch of entitled greedy idiot teenagers, a gaggle of uppity minorities with drug problems, and a fifth column of foreign infiltrators trying to bring down the American economy.
So I don't doubt the next step will be towards another round of brutal, blood-drenched fascism. But the end result will be the further deterioration of the American project and the ultimate crack up of our unified economy. The only thing that can save America from itself is a new socialist turn. Without that, we're headed for balkanization, further deindustrialization, and ultimate colonization from abroad.
I don’t think the US voter base is any more accepting of corruption than any other constituency.
Counterpoints: the US voter base re-elected Nixon (and largely wanted him to stay in office)...elected and then re-elected Reagan (despite him openly admitting to lying to the American public and exchanging guns for hostages)...elected Trump in the first place, cast more votes for Trump in 2020 than they had in 2016, and now look like they might just go ahead and put the corrupt gasbag right back in there despite the fact that he's openly corrupt, brags about it, and will likely get more corrupt in any second term.
The only thing that can save America from itself is a new socialist turn.
So there's your version of superman. Within the current political environment, I just don't see this happening without another depression or similar (so perhaps even decades more of what we currently got). I also am decidedly not someone in favor of eliminating democracy in favor of purportedly "temporary" one-party rule (that never fucking ends).
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/party-financing lots of countries limit how much can be given to politicians
Eh... There are a variety of end-runs around this mechanism.
Hiring politicians on as lobbyists or allowing friends and family to sit on private run boards and trusts can create a back channel for money to flow into a politician's pockets. Public money can be funneled into private profits for which the supporting politicians are also stockholders. And politicians can receive discounted/free services from friendly private sector constituencies. FOX News, the classic example, is a multi-billion dollar network dedicated to running Republican-friendly media. But when corporate lobbyists and political strategists can be found everywhere from the boards of NPR/PBS to the guest chairs of MSNBC to the editorial rooms of the WaPo/WSJ/NYT, there's really no safe spaces left.
You can mitigate the direct "bag of cash for favors" effect that, say, John Boehner cutting tobacco lobbyist checks on the floor of the House has produced in the past. But you can't keep public sector administrators from finding ways to receive kickbacks via private sector channels unless you completely divorce these institutions.
There are any number of hypothetical end-runs around just about anything you can think of, that doesn't make protections, mechanisms, controls, or safeties useless.
In the US, political bribery is nearly 100% legal. I'd rather have some hoops for corrupt officials to jump through. We don't even make them break a sweat in this country.
Not even hypothetical. We just had the SCOTUS kick down the door on legal bribery in Snyder v United States.
I mean, if we've got a magic lamp I can do better than a few hoops. But the system is of the corrupt, by the corrupt, for the corrupt.
At some point, you're forced to recognized the farce of democracy at work.
IIRC, people were talking about places in this thread that aren't the US.
As stated, political bribery in the US is nearly 100% legal. You can even study it in school and make a career out of it.
The Canadian system has it's own share of corruption and bribery. Just check out Rob Ford, ffs.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that even discussing real or hypothetical measures to reign in corruption is inherently worthless because you can sometimes get around some of them.
I hate the US "either we solve everything, or nothing is worth doing" mindset that's pervasive in this country, and the only reason I responded is because you're providing a good example of it.
I'm not a big fan of people wish casting naive solutions and then getting hostile when they hear the solutions aren't viable.
You can make this same, tired, ultimately invalid argument about anything you look to improve.
You can't prevent the spread of all communicable disease, so why bother taking any precautions?
Someone could build their own gun, so why bother preventing a convicted felon from buying an oozie?
Someone could evade a line item tax by hiring a fancy lawyer and setting up bespoke legal structures around themselves as an entity, so why bother looking at closing any of the existing tax loopholes?
The answer is that because it's not fucking all or nothing. Sure, someone could hypothetically do lots of things to evade any precaution that you put in place around dangerous or bad things, but that doesn't mean it's completely ineffective. If it's too much of a hassle, some people won't bother. Some people will actually get caught. Hell, with the existing lax corruption laws and lazy ass enforcement in the US people are still sometimes found in violation of them.
It isn't a "if you ain't first you're last" situation. Reasonable safeguards, laws, standards, practices, and the like save and improve lives.
This isn't about arguing. The arguments we make don't impact public policy.
Agreed, so why squabble with people pointing out that the US is more corrupt than other countries? It is.
And it's more corrupt because not only are we more accepting of corruption, but "we" (like you) largely don't believe in incremental change or taking small measures to problem reduction...we largely believe in our version of "superman" arriving...I dunno what your thoughts actually are...maybe some gay space communism revolution that'll never occur?
I gotta tell ya at this point we're much more likely to get full, mask-off fascism complete with gas chambers than we are to get any kind of communist revolution in the US.
I started out illustrating instances in which politicians could end-run a simple bribery ban and it got dismissed as a uniquely American problem.
I don't think the US voter base is any more accepting of corruption than any other constituency. The courts are more accepting of corruption, but that's largely because they are insulated from any kind of oversight or accountability.
We've had periods of mask-off fascism in the US going back centuries. From Indian Reservations to Jim Crow to Japanese Internment to Gitmo detention to kids stuffed into concentration camps on the US/Mexico border. But there are plenty of Americans who have lived through these periods and never really acknowledged it. That's what allows fascism in the US to infest the body politic and to endure from generation to generation.
Meanwhile, we've inoculated ourselves against any kind of mass labor movement with the most hysterical media and legal response to organized workers. Every AES state is a deplorable hell-hole, because some industry unionized or popular local leader took the reins from a failing foreign corporate interest. Every domestic labor movement is simultaneously described as a bunch of entitled greedy idiot teenagers, a gaggle of uppity minorities with drug problems, and a fifth column of foreign infiltrators trying to bring down the American economy.
So I don't doubt the next step will be towards another round of brutal, blood-drenched fascism. But the end result will be the further deterioration of the American project and the ultimate crack up of our unified economy. The only thing that can save America from itself is a new socialist turn. Without that, we're headed for balkanization, further deindustrialization, and ultimate colonization from abroad.
Counterpoints: the US voter base re-elected Nixon (and largely wanted him to stay in office)...elected and then re-elected Reagan (despite him openly admitting to lying to the American public and exchanging guns for hostages)...elected Trump in the first place, cast more votes for Trump in 2020 than they had in 2016, and now look like they might just go ahead and put the corrupt gasbag right back in there despite the fact that he's openly corrupt, brags about it, and will likely get more corrupt in any second term.
So there's your version of superman. Within the current political environment, I just don't see this happening without another depression or similar (so perhaps even decades more of what we currently got). I also am decidedly not someone in favor of eliminating democracy in favor of purportedly "temporary" one-party rule (that never fucking ends).