Same. And it’s happened enough that there’s no way I can attribute it solely to bad decision making.
And that's where I disagree.
These people having financial problems haven't had some crazy emergency happen (that I know of), but they do have obvious, expensive hobbies and habits. Some of them use tobacco products (cigs and dip), some collect expensive board games, most eat out a lot, and they drive late model cars. Compared to me, they have fewer kids, live in a similar area, and are often dual-income family (we're single income), so the glaring difference is lifestyle. I also look at other coworkers who are more similar to me (single-income, kids, etc), and they have been able to buy a house.
If I do some back-of-the-napkin math, the spending delta is tens of thousands more vs me. So to me, it's more a question of priorities than means, which would constitute "bad" decision making if they're not meeting their goals.
Same, though I had access to down payment assistance.
An FHA loan only requires 3-5% down, and non-FHA loans can often be as low as 10% with PMI. Houses in my area are pretty expensive now, many running $500-700k for something near-ish to work (mine isn't). At 10%, that's $50-70k, which is a lot, but people in my office should be making six figs, so saving $10-20k/year should be feasible (so 3-5 years saving). But that's a lot harder if you're paying $500+/month on a car payment (or worse, multiple car payments), eating out multiple times per week, and spending hundreds/month on hobbies.
Some of them knowingly made poor choices that led to their current struggles, but more often they were dealt one major blow or a series of minor blows at a time of high risk.
Agreed, and I certainly intend to. The issue is, most people don't like to talk about finances, even with people they know very well. I would love to lend an objective second pair of eyes (completely free) to help spot areas they may have missed in their budgeting.
Here are my plans (please critique/provide more if able):
volunteer/apply at a charity that does this sort of thing
build an app that helps with this sort of thing (I'm a SW dev)
start my own non-profit to do this sort of thing
::: spoiler My ultimate gold standard
Be involved with a non-profit/charity that:
provides free personal finance resources to the public
helps individuals develop and stick to a budget
provides low-interest loans for debt consolidation (based on 2, not credit score)
loan interest helps fund the next person's loan
If the org is a credit union, there are a lot more options, and my research shows that a credit union may only need a few hundred thousand dollars to get started.
:::
::: spoiler What I've already done
I actually started working on something like this w/ a family member, the plan was to pull money from customer's accounts and lock it away until they meet their goals. If they withdraw early, they'd lose whatever transaction fees I charged, which would be waived if they meet the target.
I would invest the money at rest to recoup the transaction fees and fund any cash bonuses. Once I got that working, I wanted to open an individual consulting part that would offer loans after a budget review, so this app would feed that non-profit.
But after I had a POC, the transaction processing org I was working with changed their pricing and made it non-viable for small transactions. I thought about releasing it w/o the bank account link, but that wouldn't be particularly interesting as an initial product.
:::
people who are struggling have never been able to make that choice meaningfully
I'd like to remove the "able" part of this, which is often an excuse. Yes, some people legitimately get stuck in a negative feedback loop, but a lot of people (perhaps most) could make meaningful changes to free up some cash flow. The difference between people who get out of bad situations and those that don't often comes down to discipline, not luck, yet so many people blame luck.
There are some things we could (and should) do as a society to make upward mobility easier (e.g. I'm in favor of something like UBI), but waiting for that is a fool's errand for those currently struggling and they should evaluate things based on their current situation. That means their choices are:
cut lifestyle to free up cash to break the poverty cycle (hard)
continue w/o changes
So when posting online, I always assume there's an opportunity to get out, and I go into any discussions with that assumption in mind.
to avoid these in the first place, you’d have to have perfect view of the future.
No, that's a defeatist perspective.
What you need is to learn from your past. Mistakes happen, what matters is what changes you make going forward to avoid those mistakes in the future. For example, let's say your car gets repo'd, the solution isn't to do better at making payments on the next car, the solution is to buy a cheaper car or go without (bus, bike, etc). Cleaning up the mess would probably require some uncomfortable changes, but it is usually possible.
Having a “doo doo plan” is great, if you have multiple options to begin with.
The "doo doo plan" isn't necessarily having a backup job offer, it's just whatever your backup is if the primary plan falls through. A signed offer letter and a start date isn't a job, you only have a job when you actually start. Some ideas:
negotiate relocation costs - backup: negotiate as an advance on your first paycheck, which doesn't need to be repaid if the job falls through
commute to that job the first week - maybe you get a hotel, or maybe you can drive there (even if it's super long, like 2+ hours)
negotiate a contract severance so you get reimbursed if they don't hold up their end of the deal
continue applying through the first week or two of the new job (i.e. until your first payday)
A legitimate company will never require any form of payment from you for a job, whether that's equipment, uniforms, etc. If you see that, it's a fraudulent job offer.
nobody has ever gotten married truly thinking that they didn’t know their spouse well
Sure, but plenty of people get married while ignoring advice from family and friends. Yes, family and friends can be wrong, but they can also see things you don't. In any case, you can always continue courtship until you're comfortable with the other person.
The tricky thing is that hormones go crazy for the first few weeks and sometimes months of a relationship, and those hormones can blind you to the faults of the other person. Ideally, you marry someone for more than just "love" (however you define that), and you need to be capable of listing personality defects as well as positives so you can decide if there are any deal breakers. You need to assume the other person won't change the flaws you see, and you need to be okay with that. Essentially, approach it like a business contract (i.e. are you getting a fair exchange), but one where both parties currently like each other.
Of my friends, most of those that got divorced did so because of flaws others close to them pointed out, but they ignored, or assumed the other person would fix. One almost got divorced due to a flaw, but they were able to work through it and rescue their marriage. Those that didn't get divorced either got lucky (fairly common) or did their due diligence before getting married. I've had friends and family end a relationship after considering engagement because they decided those flaws would become deal breakers down the line. Unfortunately, most people don't do that, and for some people, it takes multiple failed relationships to figure that out.
In this case, I think he was taken advantage of.
That's certainly possible, and maybe he can seek recourse (lawsuit) depending on what they promised and what they actually delivered.
That said, the thing I think your friend could've done better is to find someone in the business and ask them about the training program. Most of them are complete crap, and a competent FE dev could tell you that you can't just learn to do their job in 6 weeks or whatever. Part of my job position is interviewing and hiring software engineers, and I see a lot of these applicants. Most of the time, their portfolio is only the work they did in that course, and they show zero initiative in exploring beyond it. I'm happy to recommend someone for an internship if they show that initiative (and we have hired a couple that worked out), but so many think completion implies there's a job waiting for them.
I think the problem with my finances lies in historic inflation, a global pandemic, and corporate greed.
pandemic - I lost my job due to it, so I totally understand; but it also created opportunities (remote work)
corporate greed - has always existed, this isn't new; I don't even think it has meaningfully increased
It can take a while for salaries to adjust to inflation, so hopefully the issues with your finances are resolved, or close to resolving. Mine hasn't yet caught up to inflation, but I think I'll be there this raise season.
I think we understand each other, and disagree. And that's fine. I don't need to convince you. Though I would suggest that you start from a more neutral perspective (at least outwardly) when interacting with someone who needs assistance in the future.
Anyway, I don't think I have anything more to add to the conversation that hasn't already been said, so I'll wish you luck.
Thank you for your calm and level-headed discussion. Those are frustratingly rare online. I look forward to talking with you again.
You as well.
And yeah, when someone asks for assistance with finances (almost always online), I definitely wait until I see the details before pointing the finger at where the issue is. But when talking about generalities, it's really not something I can reasonably do, because there's no hard data to actually look at.
And that's where I disagree.
These people having financial problems haven't had some crazy emergency happen (that I know of), but they do have obvious, expensive hobbies and habits. Some of them use tobacco products (cigs and dip), some collect expensive board games, most eat out a lot, and they drive late model cars. Compared to me, they have fewer kids, live in a similar area, and are often dual-income family (we're single income), so the glaring difference is lifestyle. I also look at other coworkers who are more similar to me (single-income, kids, etc), and they have been able to buy a house.
If I do some back-of-the-napkin math, the spending delta is tens of thousands more vs me. So to me, it's more a question of priorities than means, which would constitute "bad" decision making if they're not meeting their goals.
An FHA loan only requires 3-5% down, and non-FHA loans can often be as low as 10% with PMI. Houses in my area are pretty expensive now, many running $500-700k for something near-ish to work (mine isn't). At 10%, that's $50-70k, which is a lot, but people in my office should be making six figs, so saving $10-20k/year should be feasible (so 3-5 years saving). But that's a lot harder if you're paying $500+/month on a car payment (or worse, multiple car payments), eating out multiple times per week, and spending hundreds/month on hobbies.
Agreed, and I certainly intend to. The issue is, most people don't like to talk about finances, even with people they know very well. I would love to lend an objective second pair of eyes (completely free) to help spot areas they may have missed in their budgeting.
Here are my plans (please critique/provide more if able):
::: spoiler My ultimate gold standard Be involved with a non-profit/charity that:
If the org is a credit union, there are a lot more options, and my research shows that a credit union may only need a few hundred thousand dollars to get started. :::
::: spoiler What I've already done I actually started working on something like this w/ a family member, the plan was to pull money from customer's accounts and lock it away until they meet their goals. If they withdraw early, they'd lose whatever transaction fees I charged, which would be waived if they meet the target.
I would invest the money at rest to recoup the transaction fees and fund any cash bonuses. Once I got that working, I wanted to open an individual consulting part that would offer loans after a budget review, so this app would feed that non-profit.
But after I had a POC, the transaction processing org I was working with changed their pricing and made it non-viable for small transactions. I thought about releasing it w/o the bank account link, but that wouldn't be particularly interesting as an initial product. :::
I'd like to remove the "able" part of this, which is often an excuse. Yes, some people legitimately get stuck in a negative feedback loop, but a lot of people (perhaps most) could make meaningful changes to free up some cash flow. The difference between people who get out of bad situations and those that don't often comes down to discipline, not luck, yet so many people blame luck.
There are some things we could (and should) do as a society to make upward mobility easier (e.g. I'm in favor of something like UBI), but waiting for that is a fool's errand for those currently struggling and they should evaluate things based on their current situation. That means their choices are:
So when posting online, I always assume there's an opportunity to get out, and I go into any discussions with that assumption in mind.
No, that's a defeatist perspective.
What you need is to learn from your past. Mistakes happen, what matters is what changes you make going forward to avoid those mistakes in the future. For example, let's say your car gets repo'd, the solution isn't to do better at making payments on the next car, the solution is to buy a cheaper car or go without (bus, bike, etc). Cleaning up the mess would probably require some uncomfortable changes, but it is usually possible.
The "doo doo plan" isn't necessarily having a backup job offer, it's just whatever your backup is if the primary plan falls through. A signed offer letter and a start date isn't a job, you only have a job when you actually start. Some ideas:
A legitimate company will never require any form of payment from you for a job, whether that's equipment, uniforms, etc. If you see that, it's a fraudulent job offer.
Sure, but plenty of people get married while ignoring advice from family and friends. Yes, family and friends can be wrong, but they can also see things you don't. In any case, you can always continue courtship until you're comfortable with the other person.
The tricky thing is that hormones go crazy for the first few weeks and sometimes months of a relationship, and those hormones can blind you to the faults of the other person. Ideally, you marry someone for more than just "love" (however you define that), and you need to be capable of listing personality defects as well as positives so you can decide if there are any deal breakers. You need to assume the other person won't change the flaws you see, and you need to be okay with that. Essentially, approach it like a business contract (i.e. are you getting a fair exchange), but one where both parties currently like each other.
Of my friends, most of those that got divorced did so because of flaws others close to them pointed out, but they ignored, or assumed the other person would fix. One almost got divorced due to a flaw, but they were able to work through it and rescue their marriage. Those that didn't get divorced either got lucky (fairly common) or did their due diligence before getting married. I've had friends and family end a relationship after considering engagement because they decided those flaws would become deal breakers down the line. Unfortunately, most people don't do that, and for some people, it takes multiple failed relationships to figure that out.
That's certainly possible, and maybe he can seek recourse (lawsuit) depending on what they promised and what they actually delivered.
That said, the thing I think your friend could've done better is to find someone in the business and ask them about the training program. Most of them are complete crap, and a competent FE dev could tell you that you can't just learn to do their job in 6 weeks or whatever. Part of my job position is interviewing and hiring software engineers, and I see a lot of these applicants. Most of the time, their portfolio is only the work they did in that course, and they show zero initiative in exploring beyond it. I'm happy to recommend someone for an internship if they show that initiative (and we have hired a couple that worked out), but so many think completion implies there's a job waiting for them.
Let's look at each of those:
It can take a while for salaries to adjust to inflation, so hopefully the issues with your finances are resolved, or close to resolving. Mine hasn't yet caught up to inflation, but I think I'll be there this raise season.
I think we understand each other, and disagree. And that's fine. I don't need to convince you. Though I would suggest that you start from a more neutral perspective (at least outwardly) when interacting with someone who needs assistance in the future.
Anyway, I don't think I have anything more to add to the conversation that hasn't already been said, so I'll wish you luck.
Thank you for your calm and level-headed discussion. Those are frustratingly rare online. I look forward to talking with you again.
You as well.
And yeah, when someone asks for assistance with finances (almost always online), I definitely wait until I see the details before pointing the finger at where the issue is. But when talking about generalities, it's really not something I can reasonably do, because there's no hard data to actually look at.