You can do almost anything with a website that you could do with an app. The only reason they are pushing the apps so hard is because they can collect a lot more data than a website can.
As Cory Doctorow put it, "An app is just a web-page wrapped in enough IP to make it a felony to add an ad-blocker to it."
The cloud is many things, but most of all, it's a trap. When software is delivered as a service, when your data and the programs you use to read and write it live on computers that you don't control, your switching costs skyrocket. Think of Adobe, which no longer lets you buy programs at all, but instead insists that you run its software via the cloud. Adobe used the fact that you no longer own the tools you rely upon to cancel its Pantone color-matching license. One day, every Adobe customer in the world woke up to discover that the colors in their career-spanning file collections had all turned black, and would remain black until they paid an upcharge:
The cloud allows the companies whose products you rely on to alter the functioning and cost of those products unilaterally. Like mobile apps – which can't be reverse-engineered and modified without risking legal liability – cloud apps are built for enshittification. They are designed to shift power away from users to software companies. An app is just a web-page wrapped in enough IP to make it a felony to add an ad-blocker to it. A cloud app is some Javascript wrapped in enough terms of service clickthroughs to make it a felony to restore old features that the company now wants to upcharge you for.
I legitimately want to scream sometimes as I feel the continual death of local computing and actual software, and it depresses me to no end how few businesses or users see it for what it is.
And it's exactly this: a trap. A trap users people are racing into, and they have no idea, at all, how bad it's going to get when the doors close behind them.
The rest of us are left with little recourse. Looking at the difference between Outlook and New Outlook is genuinely depressing because that's the future we're all being shepherded into against our will. I swear, in like 10 years, Windows will mostly just be a kiosk for Edge.
Windows will mostly just be a kiosk for Edge.
I think for the vast majority of average users this has been true for a long time.
I'm with you 100% up to the "little recourse," I think there's more options now than there have ever been. Open source (including linux and self hosting) are about the only tech-future things I'm genuinely excited about.
There's still a learning curve and progress to be made, for sure. However, anecdotally, I've seen programming and hosting become vastly more accessible in the last 15 years. Also, not everyone needs to self host, people just need to know someone who is willing and able to set them up.
Not saying it's a guarantee, but it's a possible way out, at least. And being here on lemmy, reading and writing about these issues is a good sign there's movement in the right direction.
I agree with you on everything, other than
I legitimately want to scream sometimes as I feel the continual death of local computing and actual software
...it seems to me that it's never been better, there's free software for everything, osm data for mapping, it's just that our expectations have shifted.
This is the main reason why I seldom install anyone's "app".
Most of these apps aren't true apps anyway, they're just customized browsers that lead you to a website and are free to collect as much data from you and your phone as they want.
I'll go on your website first if I have to and 9 / 10 I get what I want. Besides, I'll only ever visit the service once or twice so I don't need to install a permanent app on my phone for that.
Also desktop mode to circumvent those phone detection systems and trying to force an app.
Desktop mode plus zoom out on iOS, sometimes… then over to a desktop browser app when that falls. Sigh
I wish. Every fucking bank has their own shitty app for 2FA instead of just using standardized and proven TOTP, no way around that.
Same about school apps the article mentioned since it's connecting to their (one of many) proprietary system, no website for that.
And recently got into the home automation rabbit hole. Lots of devices that require their fucking app, sometimes with mandatory cloud account, just to connect! And people in reviews even praise how easy it is, it's infuriating! I don't need light bulbs connecting to the internet, thank you very much.
Ha, sucker, you think your non-Internet-connected lightbulbs make you safe? My Internet-connected lightbulbs have sent my online-car to wardrive your neighbourhood and sniff your Zigbee network!
…if you see my car please tell it to come back to me, I need to go to the shops…
Joke's on you - I can't even reach my Zigbee devices in the next room, your car won't have a chance from the street. That'll make it easier to convince it to come back home though.
That's because you don't have enough zigbee devices. They have to be everywhere so that they can mesh. Have you considered a zigbee carpet? It's great to link rooms together and it can share data with the zigbee vacuum cleaner.
I get emails from school, with a link that opens a 3rd party app, which only displays a link that opens in the default browser. I've asked the school to just send me direct links to the announcements, but they say they can't. The site doesn't require authentication, but the URLs have UUIDs so I can't just guess what the link would be. The app is quite literally just a data exfiltration layer that does everything it can to make sure you can't bypass it. Good luck getting any other parents to give a shit though.
Good luck getting any other parents to give a shit though.
That's the big one, sadly.
All of the banks I've used in the past utilize email or SMS for 2FA, which isn't the must secure, but doesn't require an app.
They need to switch to Webauthn. SMS-based 2FA should’ve been big 10+ years ago, not today. I don’t really understand why this old style 2FA has been just now becoming popular lately.
I returned a bunch of smart outlets I got at Home Depot after I got fed up with waiting for the app to launch just to turn a light on or off.
I also don't want to have to talk to it, so switching to Home Assistant with Zigbee button remotes has made my experience so much better. And on the plus side, everything still works when the power or Internet goes out because I've got it on battery backup.
I also don't want to have to talk to it, so switching to Home Assistant with Zigbee
That's what started it all for me. I have some Hue lights for TV backlighting and started looking for alternatives when Philipps first threatened making their cloud account mandatory.
Threw out the bridge, works like a charm and I have been buying new devices and return everything I cannot setup locally but it's annoying because they don't always tell about their crappy app and cloud accounts on the product info.
The number I remember seeing was that on average, app users are seven times more profitable than web users. Sorry, no citation.
I suspect there's some selection bias in that regular/loyal users of a particular product or service are more likely to install the app, but it also affords the company greater access to send notifications and collect data. On the rare occasion that I install some random company's app for a specific benefit, I remove it when I'm done.
Around here, Target (department store chain) will let you order stuff through their app and pick it up in the store parking lot. If you order through the web you have to wait around inside the store to get it. I still won't install the app but this issue annoys me.
And then there's guys like me. I don't announce when I'm coming. I grab the items myself, and then I pay in cash. Nonsequential bills. I'm like a ninja! I can't be traced! Shashasha!!!! Pocket sand!
Then on the way home, if I see someone following me home, I make 3 left turns. If they're STILL following me? I turn around, and I shoot them........a dirty look!
What? I'm not a psychopath. I just don't like being followed.
they're still fingerprinting and tracking devices, pairing that data to facial rec and movement tracking from cameras, and all that to register transaction data.
Target is full of video cameras and apparently they can ID people almost instantly now. Although I wear an N95 mask in the store, so maybe that helps. Main reason for wanting parking lot pickup is to stay out of the store, as infection prevention. I do go in when I have to, but try to get out quickly. I find it is quicker to get the stuff in the store and pay at self-checkout, than to order online and then wait around for them to show up at the service desk, so I mostly don't do the latter any more.
I recently ordered something from Walmart (I try to avoid it, but I could not find this one thing elsewhere) and you get a link in your email to notify them when you're in the pickup bay. The link goes to their app. I tried going to the website through Chrome, to no avail. It kept sending me to try to download the app. I did not. I don't shop there often enough to justify it. I drove to the pickup bay and lo and behold, the sign had a phone number you could call; a very pleasant person answered, asked my name, and I had my order in a few minutes.
I do have a couple grocery store apps for 2 reasons: 1 - there are some extremely low prices that you can only get by "clipping a coupon" within the app, and 2 - loyalty points do turn into cash back.
Safeway (a west coast grocery chain) has implemented it in the worst way possible, though. They had a physical loyalty card which you scanned at checkout/self checkout, which let you access lower prices. But now they have even lower prices only through the app. The app, however, 1 - does not let you enter your old loyalty card number, combine points and cleanly separate from the old method and 2 - you cannot use the damn thing at self checkout. You have to have a checkout clerk scan your barcode in the app, which is insane. I'm just glad Safeway is not my main grocery, because if it were I would have to change to some other grocery.
I was thinking about that a while back. There's got to be some sort of upper limit to collecting data being useful. I mean at some point it becomes more economical to just buy the data from one other thousands of companies data mining phones rather then going to all the trouble of building and maintaining your own data mining app.
They just sell the data. If they need user data (beyond basics) they might buy it from a data mining company.
This is almost completely true, but I would add the caveat that PWAs (progressive web apps) are not as easy to discover and less familiar to install as an app in an app/play store. It might also be because it's in Apple and Google's best interest to not streamline that. But it's still an obstacle nevertheless.
My favorite part of the 30 day dumb phone challenge I did recently: I couldn't install your crappy app even if I wanted to.
A little over halfway through the challenge, was paying for my order at a local eatery, and the cashier started plugging their new app and rewards points and digital coupons and shit. I was like "I'm gonna stop you right there: flip phone." and pulled it out of my pocket and brandished it like I was the sheriff of Luddite-ville.
Kinda like this, but "Flip phone!"
I just tell them 'no'.
That's what I used to do, but a good portion of the time they'd continue their spiel to try to change my mind. Have only had to brandish the dumb phone once, but so far it's got a 100% shut down success rate.
I just tell them I don’t have a phone. Even if I’m still holding it in my hand. Most don’t want to engage. They likely figure they’re not payed enough for that.
Same.
Cashier: "What's your phone number?" (For the store tracking/rewards/whatever)
Me : "Don't have one!" (As I remove the credit card from the case on the back of myphone)
Nobody has questioned it once. They don't want to ask in the first place but are forced to.
Huh. Doesn't happen often I guess but typically when I'm asked for a phone number or email I refuse or say I don't have one and it really throws people off and they usually refuse to complete the form or do whatever the hell it was they were doing.
Might vary by locale? Around here (South US) it seems like every single store has their own rewards/discount/whatever system that requires your phone number but it's not necessary for the transaction... It's just an extra info grab.
Sometimes the user facing POS/credit card reader will let you handle it (enter/skip) but many places rely on the salesperson to ask and then enter it or skip.
But, I also don't get around much so my experience is limited.
Just say 'no thank you'
and sounds like more fun!
Not gonna lie, it was. lol. That's one of several reasons I decided to keep it as my daily driver. It's technically a smart phone, though, I just had all the smart stuff disabled for that challenge. I've since enabled those back, but it still looks enough like a dumb phone that I can convincingly bluff with it.
Which phone is it? Might have to check it out.
Cat S22 Flip. Not without it's quirks, but I like it well enough. Had to digital detox, and it was great for that.
What apps do you have on it? Maybe some stuff like email or messaging app like Signal?
Thunderbird beta (email), Schildichat (Matrix), bank app, several local web apps (home assistant, etc), Mucke (music), key mapper, Aegis (totp authenticator), Organic Maps, Etar (Calendar), DAVx (contact/calendar sync), traditional T9 (keyboard), MALP and Snapcast (home audio)
Damn that's actually a good chunk
Lol, yeah. Covers pretty much all of my needs and most of my "wants". Even have a Lemmy app (web based) on there.
That's what I used to do, but a good portion of the time they'd continue their spiel to try to change my mind.
Where are you shopping where you are routinely encountering cashier's that are this pushy about the apps? The overwhelming majority of cash register attendance are underpaid employees that are just trying to get you through the line. They said the line because they have to say the line, but most have no intention of really trying to sell you on it.
Once upon A time, these things were just rewards programs, with the key ring bullshit. Were you signing up for each and every one of them too?
Yeah........try that in CVS.
"No no, I'd rather NOT have a reciept that's 3 miles long, because I bought a candy bar....."
But we already cut down 3 trees just for you!
"No."
"Oh, you're taking this irrelevant slip of paper! We have armed guards to make sure you do! There is a world war 2 tank outside that will crush you, and blow up your car! I know it's not really a war worthy tank, and in that sense it's obsolete, but it can still more than handle your toyota geo. Now then....take....the....reciept!
NEVER!!!!
GUARDS!!!!
And then a Kill Bill-esque fight scene breaks out. You know, like when she fought the crazy 88s. Except instead of a group of ninjas headed by a 14 year old Japanese girl, it's a group of swat team members headed by a 17 year old CVS register worker wearing a red CVS vest that he uses as a choking hazard on you in the fight.
Your goal is to dodge bullets, matrix style, while disarming one guard to shoot the rest of the guards dead, so you can fight this CVS employee one on one, as wave after wave of reinforcements constantly change the dynamic of the battle.
Finally, after defeating all the guards, you return to your car to return home, and as you make your turn onto the main road, thats when you see it. A world war 2 era tank firing mortors at you, as you're forced to weave all over the road. Other cars exploding, you're all over the road, a helicopter has joined the chase. Suddenly the helicopter is firing air to surface missles, and as you dodge them, they blow up the tank.
The helicopter then lands right in front of you on the highway. As you prepare for the final battle, the door opens it's your wife. You both embrace, and take off in the helicopter. Forever on the lamb. Always running from the threat of CVS employees that can strike at any time.
I don't go to CVS because they make the whole experience exhausting.
May I introduce you to RadioShack? Where they used to prompt you to sign up for a credit card, ask to record your personal info on a RadioShack loyalty card system (that nobody seems to remember), and one time, the lady asked me to impregnate her. I'm unclear if that was RadioShack policy, or if she was just itching. Either way it was kind of messed up, because I was 14. I looked and sounded older, but I was 14. She was like 30ish.
Gonna just leave us hanging on this one?
I stopped going to Radio Shack when they made purchasing a hassle too. Loved them as a kid in the 80s when I was doing build your own electronics.
What on earth are you people talking about?
I go to CVS all the time for random things, I've never once been pushed to use an app, nor have I ever encountered anyone that is legitimately pushing you to do anything after a simple no.
Really? You never used kung-fu to disarm swat teams, killing dozens with their own guns, while never taking damage yourself? You never sped through your local streets as tanks shot mortors at your toyota geo?
You're telling me your wife never saved you with rockets fired from a helicopter in a high speed highway chase?
Yeah........you didn't read a single sentence of the comment you replied to, did you? Aw hell. What makes me think you'll read THIS far into the message??? Tiktok is just what this generation has been needing. An entire generation of kids who don't waste their time reading!
I was like "I'm gonna stop you right there: flip phone." and pulled it out of my pocket and brandished it like I was the sheriff of Luddite-ville.
I...is the implication you would have no other choice but to install their app if you didn't have a flip phone?
I'm baffled by these comments. Who the hell is actually listening to these people and installing apps on their phone just because a cashier mentioned it?
It's not that they're going to convince me, it's that it's annoying they keep trying (likely by management)
TBH I dont use an app for anything that can be done in the browser, especially when mobile websites ask me tl get their app.
I'm the same way. The less apps there are on my phone, the better. Also, using the web app is the only way to block ads on certain sites such as Instagram or Twitter.
then there are companies like yelp who disable their mobile site and make their desktop site as shitty as possible on mobile to force you to the app.
Doesn't really sound like a company that I would want to do any business with then.
What’s that other shitty company that constantly pesters you to download the app every time you average the site? Teddit?
For reddit, just type in old.reddit.com and those nags disappear.
true but also old reddit is awful to navigate on mobile.
Eh, I prefer it to new Reddit on mobile, especially with all the nags.
Huh, is that why I haven't used yelp in years?
I wish for a browser addon to just block those app download requests when it smells them. The answer's only gonna be no for all that, dawg.~
I only have the Starbucks app so my fancy Sunday coffee is done right and they don't call me Corey Sangeetha or Coarse Kangaroo.
I recently re-downloaded the Michaels app while I was in the Michaels checkout line just so I could apply a $5 coupon that the register failed to read from the app anyway.
There's your problem right there.
Does this author not understand how dumb this makes him look? You downloaded an entire app, in the checkout line, for a $5 coupon on something you were likely overcharged for in the first place?
Even when you’re lacking in a store-specific app, your apps will let you pay by app. You just need to figure out (or remember, if you ever knew) whether your gardener or your hair salon takes Venmo, Cash App, PayPal, or one of the new bank-provided services such as Zelle and Paze.
If only there was a universal form of payment that you could keep in your pocket and pull out to use anytime with very minimal interaction. Maybe a card or something.
Apps are all around us now. McDonald’s has an app. Dunkin’ has an app.
Why are you using them?
Every chain restaurant has an app. Every food-delivery service too: Grubhub, Uber Eats, DoorDash, Chowbus.
Why are you using all of them??
Every supermarket and big-box store. I currently have 139 apps on my phone. These include: Menards, Home Depot, Lowe’s, Joann Fabric, Dierbergs, Target, IKEA, Walmart, Whole Foods
Why the fucking hell do you need any of these?!
This is literally the 2024 equivalent of your mother having a dozen toolbars in Internet Explorer because she kept clicking on coupons.
Just go to the place, pull out your credit card, pay the cashier, and leave. How the hell does any functioning adult blame the technology when they have this little self control?
People who are proud of getting a good deal via an app break my heart. Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash. They just like the feeling of getting a bargain. They don't consider that the prices are artificially inflated. They don't need the sale item. And in the long run they'll probably end up paying more when the stores know their purchasing habits and have A/B tested them enough to know how to provide as little as possible while charging as much as a customer can stomach.
If a coupon requires an app, I don't by that item. Especially when it comes to groceries. When it comes to store cards, most let you use a phone number instead of scanning the card. So plug in a random number at checkout. You can often get a hit on the first try. Then pay in cash. Dirty up someone else's data and give these stores nothing on you. Seriously, if people keep giving in, it's guaranteed to get worse. First the store card, then the app, what's next?
Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash.
Whoa. What group do you run in? Literally everyone I talk to on a daily basis is.
I actually just thought through an average day, and the people I talk to regularly. I've had conversations with each and every one of them over the past few months about how we've had to make major changes to our lifestyles in one way or another because the money is going out faster than it's coming in. We're all solidly middle-class, for whatever that means anymore.
So what circles are you in where not everyone is looking for every possible discount they can get? Saving $5 on groceries means I can afford another gallon and a half of gas. I can't afford to be principled about privacy when those are the stakes. But it doesn't mean I have to like it.
I think age / location / profession have a lot to do with what socioeconomic circles people run in.
Not to mention luck of the draw.
For sure, but like...I'm a middle-aged software engineer in a low cost-of-living area. My parents always had enough on one income, but we're struggling on two.
I'm similar, but probably a bit younger. I make a good salary now (I'm in a leadership position), but the people on my team are a bit more "average." Software engineering will have a higher than average salary, but I'm talking $80-120k for the people who work for me in an area where the median income is $70-80k ($80-120k), and most are single or single-income.
There's a pretty stark difference between those who are financially stable and those who... aren't. I don't have everyone's salary, but here's what I see:
financially stable - drive older car, own house, wardrobe is simple, hobbies are inexpensive, no extravagent trips
financially unstable - drive late model car, rent, nicer clothes, more expensive hobbies, yearly international trips
Notice I didn't say anything about income. Some of the financially unstable people have a much higher income (probably double the range above), and some of the financially stable people have a much lower income (e.g. one of my employees is single and just bought a house in a pricier area, while being at the bottom of the income range).
I obviously don't know your income or situation, but I think most people can do much better than they are without changing their income. And the more financially stable you can be, the more "quiet" confidence you get (i.e. you're not distracted by when payday is), and the more likely you are to get that promotion or better paying job. Success tends to breed success.
Check out The Millionaire Next Door, which gives lots of examples about how wealthy people tend to be frugal and careful with money. There's not really any secret sauce here, just delayed gratification and discipline. Obviously a $100k salary will go a bit further than a $50k salary, but even a median income can rocket you to an upper-middle class/lower-upper class retirement if you manage it carefully. I'm happy to walk through a scenario if you like, but that's a bit off-topic for this community and is probably better for one of the PF communities.
I have a rule of thumb for financial stability.
Level 1 - just buy groceries and pay for them without stressing
Level 2 - don't worry about when payday hits
Level 3 - don't worry about getting laid off
That makes a ton of sense. To add some numbers to it:
$1k in the bank - should be enough for any one emergency
1 month e-fund - no longer impacted by payday being late
3 month e-fund
Getting to step 1 can be very difficult, especially for the lower class, but $10 or $20 at a time can get there. But it needs to be intentional, and that's really hard when working two (or three) jobs, so many just don't put in the consistent effort needed to get there. But once that first buffer is there, the rest becomes a lot easier since you're no longer getting pushed backwards.
I disagree strongly that $1k is enough for any one emergency. My healthcare deductible is higher than that. The last two times I've needed car repairs, the bill was $2-3k to get the thing back on the road. If one of our appliances breaks down, we might be able to replace it for $1,000 if it's the dryer or the dishwasher, but if it's the fridge, that's not close to enough.
$1,000 was plenty when I was in college back in the mid-00s, but I was single with no kids. That's just not a realistic emergency fund in 2024, and even less so if you have a family.
$1k is enough for any one emergency
I never said it would definitely cover all emergencies, but it should cover most emergencies. For example:
car issue - usually $400-1000 - my last FE strut replacement cost $800-900, and that's on the more expensive end (certainly wouldn't handle engine work though)
washing machine/dishwasher/refrigerator dies - new one costs a few hundred, maybe slightly more (my fridge this year cost ~$1300, cheaper options exist)
surprise funeral of a loved one - plane tickets/gas and a hotel for a couple nights should be under $1k
It's not going to solve everything, but it's a nice milestone that means you can weather most emergencies, provided they come one at a time. The goal here isn't to guarantee that you're safe from everything (nobody should stop at this step), but to protect you from most of the small things that would otherwise go to debt.
If we raise the bar too high, people will get discouraged and give up. $1k is a pretty decent goal and can do a lot of good.
And it fucking SUCKS in the beginning, because for a very long time it keeps getting wiped out by emergencies. But the more emergencies you weather, eventually the fewer you'll have, and your buffer will grow.
Emergency funds are the most important tool for financial stability (after securing a living wage).
Exactly. Just take solace in knowing that each emergency that wipes out your e-fund could have been devastating debt, and the e-fund is doing its job.
Honestly, what you see isn't familiar to me at all. The people I know are very good at being frugal and wringing the last out of every dime, not being extravagant or frivolous, etc. We have no car payment on our ten-year-old minivan, own our home, and haven't been clothes shopping in years except to replace things that wear out, that sort of thing.
The problem isn't budgeting; we have a budget, and we stick to it pretty well. There are very few things we could cut, and doing so might save us a hundred or so dollars per month. The problem is that inflation has eaten up every dollar from my paycheck we used to have in surplus. The problem is that my salary hasn't kept up with inflation and nobody else around here is hiring.
Yes, you can budget yourself from the top of one financial class into the bottom of another one; and you can manage money poorly enough to drop from anywhere to the bottom of the heap. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a significant financial crunch happening for most people in the world right now.
Seems like everyone has their own preferred explanation as to why that's happening (corporate greed vs. government overreach), but the fact that it's happening seems pretty clear.
my salary hasn’t kept up with inflation
Yes, that certainly is a problem. Salary increases tend to lag inflation a bit, so you'd either need to switch jobs or wait to get caught up.
That said, wage growth has exceeded inflation for the last year and a half or so, so hopefully you'll get a yearly salary bump to help out. Our salary bump was higher than usual last year (about 5%), but still below inflation (8-9%), and I hope our salary bump this year will fix that (4% would be enough to catch back up).
But the fact that you've been able to stay financially stable despite high inflation means you're probably closer to "The Millionaire Next Door" than the average Joe drowning in credit card debt. If you can stay out of debt and put money away for retirement every month, you'll be doing fine in your 60s when you're looking at retirement.
you can budget yourself from the top of one financial class into the bottom of another one
Sure, if you follow the average advice (save 10%), then yeah, one bump-up is essentially expected. But if you're more aggressive, jumping up more than one level should be feasible.
This video talks about economic classes, and the portion I linked shows how you can go from $65k/year salary (middle middle class) to lower upper class by age 50 by just investing 10% of your income. So this is essentially middle middle-class to lower-upper class. If you do 40 years instead of stopping at 50, you'd have $3M by retirement age. If we account for 2% inflation, you'd have about $1.7M in today's dollars, which is almost to upper upper class. If you bump to 15% of your income, you end up with $2.6M after taking inflation into account, which is in that upper upper class range. So with just a median household salary, you can have an upper upper class retirement.
My circle of friends are also not strapped for cash. I’m confused as to how that’s so baffling to you. We’re very much NOT upper class.
We’re very much NOT upper class.
I kinda think that not being strapped for cash is being upper-class.
Upper-class: Always having enough
Middle-class: Always having almost enough
Lower-class: Never having enough
"Class" is determined by income, "enough" is determined by spending habits. You could make $50k and have positive cash flow, or you could make $400k and always be strapped for cash. The higher your income is, the more options you have, but also the more exposure you have to more ways to waste your money.
lower class ($34k median income, $3400 net worth) - ~25% of population - these are those who truly struggle with emergencies, and flirt w/ the federal poverty line; net worth is pretty much nothing (often negative!); main goal is get an emergency fund to break the cycle of poverty
middle class - three categories (lower, middle, upper)
lower ($44k median income, $71k net worth) - ~20% population - identify more with middle-middle class and tend to get into more debt than necessary by keeping up with the Joneses, and could be financially stable w/ some discipline
middle ($81k median income, $159k net worth) - ~20% - financially stable, most of assets are in home
upper ($117k median income, $307k net worth) - ~20% - passive income and compound interest supplement income; some live paycheck-to-paycheck due to lifestyle inflation, but some can do really well with investments
upper class - two categories (lower and upper)
lower ($189k median income, $747k net worth) - ~10% - specialized professions; most people can get into the lower upper class with discipline (10% savings rate on $65k salary => $787k investments by age 50); little pressure from everyday expenses
upper ($378k median income, $2.5M net worth) - ~5% - some college grads working as employees, but a lot of these are business owners
At each level, I see two types of people:
lower class
savers - those who scrimp to be able to cover emergencies that would otherwise screw them over; these can move up to the middle class
"normies" - those who get screwed over and over and stay in the lower class
middle class
savers - less scrimping here, but need to budget and avoid "keeping up with the Joneses"; some discipline can establish a solid retirement
"normies" - debt payments prevent any kind of progression, and workers are terrified of job loss because the house of cards could come tumbling down
upper class
savers - become really wealthy (upper upper class)
"normies" - some upper class folks are "strapped for cash" because they can't keep their spending in check, but most have enough income to recover from even the worst mistakes
By this metric, not being strapped for cash is possible for pretty much anyone in the lower-middle class and above, and even those in the lower class could get there by stabilizing their finances so they can take some risks to increase their income (i.e. night school, quitting a bad job for a better job, getting CDL and financing a truck, etc). On the flipside, being strapped for cash is also quite possible at pretty much any income level, and I've heard plenty of stories about lawyers and doctors having trouble keeping up with debt payments because they got caught trying to keep up with those wealthier than them.
So I don't think "strapped for cash" is a good metric for economic class, income is, because you can make choices that can cause you to be paycheck-to-paycheck at almost any income level, as well as choices to maintain stability at almost any income level.
Add the 1% there. Generational wealth people. Private jets, multiple mansion homes, etc. They're far above the upper class. Totally different plane of existence from everyone else.
not being strapped for cash is possible for pretty much anyone in the lower-middle class and above, and even those in the lower class could get there by stabilizing their finances so they can take some risks to increase their income (i.e. night school, quitting a bad job for a better job, getting CDL and financing a truck, etc).
It's easy to say "stabilize your finances!" but on a practical level it's almost impossible to do when there's no wiggle room. You can't stabilize any finances if you're taking out payday loans in order to pay rent every month. It's not like there's any money to be put into savings if you're making $2,000 a month but putting $1,000 toward rent, since most people rather like to eat.
I'm thankful to not be in that situation, personally, but it's not something you can just wish your way out of. Even your examples require a certain level of financial breathing room that people don't tend to have when every dollar is spoken for. You can't finance a truck if your DTI is already high. You can't take CDL training or night school if you have to work two jobs just to keep food on the table.
I've heard plenty of stories about lawyers and doctors having trouble keeping up with debt payments because they got caught trying to keep up with those wealthier than them.
But if you get into that scenario, you can just sell the supercar or downsize your house or whatever. That's not really an option for people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck.
So I don't think "strapped for cash" is a good metric for economic class, income is,
I think income divided by local cost-of-living could be, maybe.
At the end of the day, irresponsibility with money is still a problem for sure. And keeping-up-with-the-joneses is probably a problem for some people. I'm not one of them, and none of the people I know are either, but I suppose some people have that issue. In my experience, though, most people who are struggling financially are not in those situations. They're just trying to keep their heads above water.
You can’t stabilize any finances if you’re taking out payday loans in order to pay rent every month
Oh, I 100% agree. But in many cases, taking payday loans is a symptom of other serious problems in someone's spending patterns and not necessarily an income problem. Maybe the car payment is too high, or perhaps they're paying too much for food. Whatever it is, that needs to get fixed to end the need for emergency cash.
If you're in the lower middle class or higher, there's no excuse for it IMO. If you're in the lower class, you'll need to get creative (government assistance, co-living, etc).
you can just sell the supercar or downsize your house or whatever
You say that, but in many cases, they still end up net worth negative. The problem here isn't with income, but spending, and you're not going to sell your way out of a spending problem.
I think income divided by local cost-of-living could be, maybe.
Certainly. Economic classes are very much location-dependent. If you live in NYC or SF, you'd need to adjust the numbers a bit, likewise if you live in rural Mississippi or something. And there are calculators available online to help with that.
most people who are struggling financially are not in those situations
Pretty much everyone will say that though, because people are pretty bad at noticing the excesses in their own spending. If you're not standing out as being "weird" for spending so little, then you're probably "keeping up with the Joneses," because the average American is pretty irresponsible.
This is a pretty broad brush stroke to be sure, and I'm sure there are plenty who are legitimately struggling despite a conscious effort to cut costs. I'm just saying that many, if not most, people who aren't "financially stable" could make room in their budget to get financially stable, but instead end up throwing a ton of money down the drain due to interest.
Do you actually know anyone who's in this situation?
In my experience, it's not a choice they've made. Some people are bad with money, to be sure. I'm related to a few. But they don't typically just decide they're going to blow August's grocery budget on a new wardrobe; they have a job opportunity dry up after they already moved for it, or they had a messy divorce because their spouse was abusive, or they poured a ton of money into some career training that turned out not to give them any real, marketable skills. Some bad choices, some unavoidable occurrences, some terrible luck, but nothing that crosses the line to them being frivolous.
Thirty years ago, a family could weather one or two of those, no problem. My dad got laid off not too long before I was born, and he was the sole earner for our family. He got hired fairly soon after, but in the meantime we were fine.
I don't live a whole lot different than my parents did then. We have more kids than they did, but I'm in a higher earning potential career than he was. Plus, my wife and I are both employed. Yet if either of us were laid off, we would not last long on savings.
One thing I've learned as I get older: yeah, people are irresponsible. But the generations are pretty much the same, and trying to pretend otherwise is a good way to get clicks on your article but a bad way to actually get any meaningful insight about people. So if our generation is having more widespread problems than our parents' generation did at this age, it's probably not because we aren't as responsible as they are. Something systemic probably changed.
Do you actually know anyone who’s in this situation?
::: spoiler Those I know personally
myself - parents paid my tuition, I paid everything else (rent, food, books, etc) by working through school making a little over minimum wage (I'm long past this stage)
close cousin - single income social worker w/ 4 kids; they own a house, and while they haven't shared income info, they probably make median income or so and live a lower-middle to middle-class lifestyle
other cousins (not as close) - work in the trades (plumbing), drive trucks, teachers, etc
in-laws - immigrants w/ three kids who have lived in a 2BR apartment since moving here, never really getting ahead
Both sides of my family are generally fairly successful (middle class and upper middle class), with most of my cousins having completed a 4-year degree. My family is quite close, vacationing together almost every year, renting large houses in the middle of nowhere so we can spend time together (e.g. this year we had ~20 people in one house in nowhere Idaho).
My in-laws, however, are the opposite. My MIL completed a chef certification, but other than that, neither has completed formal education beyond K-12. They drive nicer cars, wear nicer clothes, and go to nicer restaurants than I ever did growing up (we thought the "cheap Chinese" place was a special treat). Both of them work, while I grew up in a single-income family. I don't know details about their financial situation, and I'm honestly preparing our finances so we can support them when they can no longer supplement their SS income.
My family is largely quite successful (siblings are professor, accountant, actuary, and software engineer), I work in a field with a lot of successful people, and my neighbors are largely fairly successful (mostly middle middle class to upper middle class). That said, I've had neighbors have cars repossessed, coworkers struggle w/ credit card debt, and people making more than me struggle with a house down-payment (and I bought in my late 20s making much less than I do now), and the reason for each is pretty obvious from the outside (they spend way more than me on hobbies, cars, and other lifestyle items).
:::
That said, I do admit I have limited personal experience with people in this situation. However, I personally choose to live like I'm a level below my means so I have a cushion in case something goes wrong. And one of my life goals is to leave my career early to actively help people with spending problems at all income levels to break that cycle, hence why I'm so interested in this.
they have a job opportunity dry up after they already moved for it, or they had a messy divorce because their spouse was abusive, or they poured a ton of money into some career training that turned out not to give them any real, marketable skills
At the risk of sounding callous, this sounds like symptoms of the same underlying problem: lack of diligence. And no, I'm not saying they didn't "work hard enough" or they should "pull themselves up by their bootstraps," I'm saying they could have mitigated these problems by making different decisions:
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
Seneca
::: spoiler Breakdown of those problems you mentioned
job opportunity dry up - always have a backup plan; as The Money Guy host likes to say, make sure to include a "doo doo plan" in your projections (i.e. what you'll do if the plan doesn't work out)
messy divorce - don't just marry for love, make sure your goals align and you truly know who you're getting involved with; divorce can still happen, but you can usually avoid abusive people by listening to advice from family and friends (i.e. those who aren't blinded by hormones)
career training - look at expected outcomes from whatever the training is, not just the handful of success stories; as in, don't blindly trust what the people giving the training claim, verify it by looking at market data or asking someone in the business
:::
I fully appreciate that many people don't have the training or experience to avoid manipulation by others, which is a common thread here, so we absolutely need to improve our education system. But blaming others for your choices is a recipe for failure and isn't going to help you move forward.
I have made my fair share of mistakes, some of them have cost me a lot. But I refuse to blame others and instead choose to point the finger back at myself, and I think that has made all the difference. And that's what I'm getting at here: you can't change your present, but you can make choices to change your future.
Thirty years ago, a family could weather one or two of those, no problem. My dad got laid off not too long before I was born, and he was the sole earner for our family. He got hired fairly soon after, but in the meantime we were fine.
::: spoiler Personal anecode about losing my job
And that's the same today. I lost my job at the start of COVID right after my daughter was born (she was born in March, 2020, so we saw lockdowns come into effect while we were in the hospital). So I had a ton of medical expenses, few opportunities for work (I was a consultant at the time), and an uncertain economic future. But what I did have was 6-12 months expenses in cash. So we were fine, and it took me most of a year to find a new job because companies had frozen hiring (ended up w/ W-2 position because I couldn't network due to lockdowns).
:::
That set us back a couple of years, but we were already ahead because we were living below our means. Fast-forward to today and we're back to being ahead because we continued to live below our means.
The authors found that household liabilities rose relative to income and real interest rates mostly declined from 1995 to 2010, which led them to suggest that an increase in loan supply relative to loan demand happened during that period.
I read this as: debt got cheaper, so people got more debt. So people are in more debt today, but they're paying about the same to service that debt. So people are spending more than they used to, but they're able to do that because borrowing rates are lower.
The solution, then, isn't necessarily that people don't have enough income, it's that their expectations of what that income can buy is out of whack. In my experience, people largely paid for things w/ cash 30 years ago, whereas today paying with credit is a lot more common. People don't save up to buy things as much, and instead buy now pay later. So the real issue here is discipline, at least for those in the middle class and above.
Something systemic probably changed.
My argument is that systemic change is access to credit, which has gotten a lot easier in the last 10-20 years where you can get a new CC or personal loan on your computer instead of actually having to go talk to someone at a bank. That means being irresponsible with money is easier, which I think encourages more people to do it.
So I do think younger generations (including my own, I'm a millennial) are more irresponsible with money and have higher expectations of what that money can buy than previous generations. Over the last 30+ years, real wages have increased consistently (i.e. after taking inflation into account), and we're back to the peak of the early 70s before the stagflation of the 80s. Yet people claim we're getting poorer, so I have to take that as people having unrealistic expectations instead of an income problem.
You and I have had remarkably similar lives, actually.
myself - parents paid my tuition, I paid everything else (rent, food, books, etc) by working through school making a little over minimum wage (I'm long past this stage)
Same. I was a cashier and then a pharmacy tech.
Both sides of my family are generally fairly successful (middle class and upper middle class), with most of my cousins having completed a 4-year degree.
Close. I think about half of my cousins have a degree; the other half went into trades.
My family is largely quite successful (siblings are professor, accountant, actuary, and software engineer), I work in a field with a lot of successful people,
—same, but—
and my neighbors are largely fairly successful (mostly middle middle class to upper middle class).
Here's where we differ. My neighbors are not poor, but the neighborhood is not yet completely gentrified. We have some K12 teachers, some construction workers, a few military people, alongside some people in more white collar high-earning-potential professions.
That said, I've had neighbors have cars repossessed, coworkers struggle w/ credit card debt, and people making more than me struggle with a house down-payment
Same. And it's happened enough that there's no way I can attribute it solely to bad decision making.
(and I bought in my late 20s making much less than I do now),
Same, though I had access to down payment assistance.
That said, I do admit I have limited personal experience with people in this situation.
Thank you for being honest about this. I would personally suggest that you talk with some people who are in situations like you're talking about. Some of them knowingly made poor choices that led to their current struggles, but more often they were dealt one major blow or a series of minor blows at a time of high risk.
However, I personally choose to live like I'm a level below my means so I have a cushion in case something goes wrong.
I say this without malice: many (if not most) people who are struggling have never been able to make that choice meaningfully. I'm glad to have been able to, but it's not common.
And one of my life goals is to leave my career early to actively help people with spending problems at all income levels to break that cycle, hence why I'm so interested in this.
I wish you luck in that, I truly do. Please consult with people who have been in the situations you're talking about before you draw up a wonderful, shiny plan for their finances.
At the risk of sounding callous, this sounds like symptoms of the same underlying problem: lack of diligence.
Sometimes, maybe. But the point I'm making isn't that no one ever makes mistakes. It's that one or two such mistakes can end up catastrophically for people who don't have far to wiggle. A person who is generally attentive to their finances but makes a couple of bad calls before they have a safety net can end up on the back foot for the rest of their life.
And no, I'm not saying they didn't "work hard enough" or they should "pull themselves up by their bootstraps," I'm saying they could have mitigated these problems by making different decisions:
Hindsight being 20/20, you're always going to say you'd make different decisions when you have perfect vision as to the outcomes of the bad outcomes. But to avoid these in the first place, you'd have to have perfect view of the future.
job opportunity dry up - always have a backup plan; as The Money Guy host likes to say, make sure to include a "doo doo plan" in your projections (i.e. what you'll do if the plan doesn't work out)
I've been in a position several times where the job opportunity I accepted was the only one I was offered. Having a "doo doo plan" is great, if you have multiple options to begin with.
messy divorce - don't just marry for love, make sure your goals align and you truly know who you're getting involved with; divorce can still happen, but you can usually avoid abusive people by listening to advice from family and friends (i.e. those who aren't blinded by hormones)
I agree with this to a point, but (hyperbole) nobody has ever gotten married truly thinking that they didn't know their spouse well. Even family and friends can be wrong.
career training - look at expected outcomes from whatever the training is, not just the handful of success stories; as in, don't blindly trust what the people giving the training claim, verify it by looking at market data or asking someone in the business
The case in point that I'm thinking about for this one was a person who entered a front end web development training program with the promise of job search assistance upon graduation. Reviews of the school were good, personal anecdotes from graduates were good. It was only after the program that my friend discovered the cracks in the process (as he was falling through one). Due diligence was done, to the satisfaction of most reasonable people. In this case, I think he was taken advantage of. Speaking of which...
I fully appreciate that many people don't have the training or experience to avoid manipulation by others, which is a common thread here, so we absolutely need to improve our education system.
100% agree with you here.
But blaming others for your choices is a recipe for failure and isn't going to help you move forward.
I apologize, I was unclear about this. None of the people I've mentioned are complaining or blaming others for their current state. Every single one of them is actively working to improve their situations. I'm saying, as a person who watched the trajectory of their lives from the outside, they weren't the primary cause of their financial troubles.
I realize that it sounds like I'm leaving myself out of that, and I suppose I am blaming others here. But to be clear, I'm probably the most well-off of the people I'm talking about. In comparison to the people I'm talking about, my concerns are very minor. We'll be ok, and we're already working on improving our situation. And even I am not blaming any one person; I think the problem with my finances lies in historic inflation, a global pandemic, and corporate greed.
I have made my fair share of mistakes, some of them have cost me a lot. But I refuse to blame others and instead choose to point the finger back at myself, and I think that has made all the difference. And that's what I'm getting at here: you can't change your present, but you can make choices to change your future.
...if you know what the future holds.
[Ok, Lemmy is saying that this is too long, so I'm going to try to split my reply up.]
[1/2]
[2/2]
I lost my job at the start of COVID right after my daughter was born (she was born in March, 2020, so we saw lockdowns come into effect while we were in the hospital).
Again, same. Though for me, it was December of 2019 and a son, and I was laid off in late January. Wild times.
But what I did have was 6-12 months expenses in cash.
We had carved away at our cash reserves building a house that our larger family could actually fit in, and they hadn't built back up yet. It was a calculated risk to do that rather than buy, and I wouldn't have changed the calculation in hindsight, but the one-two-three-four punch of house-child-layoff-pandemic within the span of a few months isn't really something you expect when you're doing the numbers.
That set us back a couple of years, but we were already ahead because we were living below our means. Fast-forward to today and we're back to being ahead because we continued to live below our means.
I'm glad for you. And also: your situation is not normative.
Here's an interesting article about household debt over time, which goes back to 1995 (so almost 30 years). [...] debt got cheaper, so people got more debt.
A couple of things to note:
Those numbers end in 2010, which means that they're actually almost as far away from today as the beginning of that study is from the end of that study. A lot has happened in the last 14 years.
Those numbers also end right as the country was digging its way out of the 2008 financial crisis, which was largely caused (as I'm sure you recall) by debt mismanagement (specifically subprime mortgages). Those numbers, in and of themselves, are signposts of the very institutional and systemic changes I'm taking about.
It's impossible to disentangle the chicken and the egg here. Were people in more debt in 2010 because rates were low? Or were rates low because the economy was burning, largely because more people were in bad debt situations?
In my experience, people largely paid for things w/ cash 30 years ago, whereas today paying with credit is a lot more common.
My parents used credit in the 90s. We had car payments and a mortgage (and their mortgage rate was in the double digits, no less—but it was still a smaller percentage of their single monthly income than my 2.8% mortgage is today, in a better field, with a second income.
People don't save up to buy things as much, and instead buy now pay later.
Again, the chicken and the egg: do people not save up because they don't want to? Or because they can't? If our car dies, I can't save up to buy another. I have to buy now and pay later.
So the real issue here is discipline, at least for those in the middle class and above.
With your caveat, I'm amenable to entertaining your argument for a significant portion of the population. I just don't recognize it in practice.
being irresponsible with money is easier, which I think encourages more people to do it.
I just don't see the numbers bearing that out. And anecdotally, it might be easier to sign up for a credit card online, but I was getting junk mail about credit cards on the day I turned 18, in 2003. One of my first jobs included trying to pitch a private label grocery store credit card to everyone who walked in. When I got to college (also in 2003), a credit card company had a booth there and was offering students free pizza if you signed up for a credit card. I didn't bite, but there was a substantial line at that booth. So it might be quicker now, but I haven't received a mailer for a credit card in years.
So I do think younger generations (including my own, I'm a millennial)
Me too. I think we might be the same person. This is honestly kind of weirding me out.
[...] are more irresponsible with money and have higher expectations of what that money can buy than previous generations. Over the last 30+ years, real wages have increased consistently (i.e. after taking inflation into account), and we're back to the peak of the early 70s before the stagflation of the 80s. Yet people claim we're getting poorer, so I have to take that as people having unrealistic expectations instead of an income problem.
Thanks for chatting with me about this. It's a really interesting topic.
Same. And it’s happened enough that there’s no way I can attribute it solely to bad decision making.
And that's where I disagree.
These people having financial problems haven't had some crazy emergency happen (that I know of), but they do have obvious, expensive hobbies and habits. Some of them use tobacco products (cigs and dip), some collect expensive board games, most eat out a lot, and they drive late model cars. Compared to me, they have fewer kids, live in a similar area, and are often dual-income family (we're single income), so the glaring difference is lifestyle. I also look at other coworkers who are more similar to me (single-income, kids, etc), and they have been able to buy a house.
If I do some back-of-the-napkin math, the spending delta is tens of thousands more vs me. So to me, it's more a question of priorities than means, which would constitute "bad" decision making if they're not meeting their goals.
Same, though I had access to down payment assistance.
An FHA loan only requires 3-5% down, and non-FHA loans can often be as low as 10% with PMI. Houses in my area are pretty expensive now, many running $500-700k for something near-ish to work (mine isn't). At 10%, that's $50-70k, which is a lot, but people in my office should be making six figs, so saving $10-20k/year should be feasible (so 3-5 years saving). But that's a lot harder if you're paying $500+/month on a car payment (or worse, multiple car payments), eating out multiple times per week, and spending hundreds/month on hobbies.
Some of them knowingly made poor choices that led to their current struggles, but more often they were dealt one major blow or a series of minor blows at a time of high risk.
Agreed, and I certainly intend to. The issue is, most people don't like to talk about finances, even with people they know very well. I would love to lend an objective second pair of eyes (completely free) to help spot areas they may have missed in their budgeting.
Here are my plans (please critique/provide more if able):
volunteer/apply at a charity that does this sort of thing
build an app that helps with this sort of thing (I'm a SW dev)
start my own non-profit to do this sort of thing
::: spoiler My ultimate gold standard
Be involved with a non-profit/charity that:
provides free personal finance resources to the public
helps individuals develop and stick to a budget
provides low-interest loans for debt consolidation (based on 2, not credit score)
loan interest helps fund the next person's loan
If the org is a credit union, there are a lot more options, and my research shows that a credit union may only need a few hundred thousand dollars to get started.
:::
::: spoiler What I've already done
I actually started working on something like this w/ a family member, the plan was to pull money from customer's accounts and lock it away until they meet their goals. If they withdraw early, they'd lose whatever transaction fees I charged, which would be waived if they meet the target.
I would invest the money at rest to recoup the transaction fees and fund any cash bonuses. Once I got that working, I wanted to open an individual consulting part that would offer loans after a budget review, so this app would feed that non-profit.
But after I had a POC, the transaction processing org I was working with changed their pricing and made it non-viable for small transactions. I thought about releasing it w/o the bank account link, but that wouldn't be particularly interesting as an initial product.
:::
people who are struggling have never been able to make that choice meaningfully
I'd like to remove the "able" part of this, which is often an excuse. Yes, some people legitimately get stuck in a negative feedback loop, but a lot of people (perhaps most) could make meaningful changes to free up some cash flow. The difference between people who get out of bad situations and those that don't often comes down to discipline, not luck, yet so many people blame luck.
There are some things we could (and should) do as a society to make upward mobility easier (e.g. I'm in favor of something like UBI), but waiting for that is a fool's errand for those currently struggling and they should evaluate things based on their current situation. That means their choices are:
cut lifestyle to free up cash to break the poverty cycle (hard)
continue w/o changes
So when posting online, I always assume there's an opportunity to get out, and I go into any discussions with that assumption in mind.
to avoid these in the first place, you’d have to have perfect view of the future.
No, that's a defeatist perspective.
What you need is to learn from your past. Mistakes happen, what matters is what changes you make going forward to avoid those mistakes in the future. For example, let's say your car gets repo'd, the solution isn't to do better at making payments on the next car, the solution is to buy a cheaper car or go without (bus, bike, etc). Cleaning up the mess would probably require some uncomfortable changes, but it is usually possible.
Having a “doo doo plan” is great, if you have multiple options to begin with.
The "doo doo plan" isn't necessarily having a backup job offer, it's just whatever your backup is if the primary plan falls through. A signed offer letter and a start date isn't a job, you only have a job when you actually start. Some ideas:
negotiate relocation costs - backup: negotiate as an advance on your first paycheck, which doesn't need to be repaid if the job falls through
commute to that job the first week - maybe you get a hotel, or maybe you can drive there (even if it's super long, like 2+ hours)
negotiate a contract severance so you get reimbursed if they don't hold up their end of the deal
continue applying through the first week or two of the new job (i.e. until your first payday)
A legitimate company will never require any form of payment from you for a job, whether that's equipment, uniforms, etc. If you see that, it's a fraudulent job offer.
nobody has ever gotten married truly thinking that they didn’t know their spouse well
Sure, but plenty of people get married while ignoring advice from family and friends. Yes, family and friends can be wrong, but they can also see things you don't. In any case, you can always continue courtship until you're comfortable with the other person.
The tricky thing is that hormones go crazy for the first few weeks and sometimes months of a relationship, and those hormones can blind you to the faults of the other person. Ideally, you marry someone for more than just "love" (however you define that), and you need to be capable of listing personality defects as well as positives so you can decide if there are any deal breakers. You need to assume the other person won't change the flaws you see, and you need to be okay with that. Essentially, approach it like a business contract (i.e. are you getting a fair exchange), but one where both parties currently like each other.
Of my friends, most of those that got divorced did so because of flaws others close to them pointed out, but they ignored, or assumed the other person would fix. One almost got divorced due to a flaw, but they were able to work through it and rescue their marriage. Those that didn't get divorced either got lucky (fairly common) or did their due diligence before getting married. I've had friends and family end a relationship after considering engagement because they decided those flaws would become deal breakers down the line. Unfortunately, most people don't do that, and for some people, it takes multiple failed relationships to figure that out.
In this case, I think he was taken advantage of.
That's certainly possible, and maybe he can seek recourse (lawsuit) depending on what they promised and what they actually delivered.
That said, the thing I think your friend could've done better is to find someone in the business and ask them about the training program. Most of them are complete crap, and a competent FE dev could tell you that you can't just learn to do their job in 6 weeks or whatever. Part of my job position is interviewing and hiring software engineers, and I see a lot of these applicants. Most of the time, their portfolio is only the work they did in that course, and they show zero initiative in exploring beyond it. I'm happy to recommend someone for an internship if they show that initiative (and we have hired a couple that worked out), but so many think completion implies there's a job waiting for them.
I think the problem with my finances lies in historic inflation, a global pandemic, and corporate greed.
pandemic - I lost my job due to it, so I totally understand; but it also created opportunities (remote work)
corporate greed - has always existed, this isn't new; I don't even think it has meaningfully increased
It can take a while for salaries to adjust to inflation, so hopefully the issues with your finances are resolved, or close to resolving. Mine hasn't yet caught up to inflation, but I think I'll be there this raise season.
We make a decent amount, but we’re priced out of buying a home right now. We have a solid amount of savings and stocks, and our only debt is my partner’s student loans which aren’t a ton. We just don’t think about money day to day.
If we want something, we just get it. But we don’t really want things, so we mainly just spend money on food and booze. And Steam games, but only if they’re 50% off or more.
We’re probably lower-middle to middle-class. Lower now, maybe mid-mid when we finally can buy a house.
People who are proud of getting a good deal via an app break my heart. Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash. They just like the feeling of getting a bargain. They don’t consider that the prices are artificially inflated.
Thats why Prime Day is such a big deal.
People think they are getting awesome deals cause its 50% off, are not going and checking price trackers to see the item had a HUGE price spike a week before Prime Day.
But they think they got 50% off and that gives them that massive dopamine rush, and that encourages more spending.
The Lowe's app is actually really handy. You can look up any item and it will tell you the exact isle and bay it's in for your store. No more wandering around or hunting for an employee to ask. It's the only store app I actually keep on my phone.
The point is it's bullshit that's not available on the Lowes website.
It actually is available on the website, but like most stores their mobile web experience isn't great.
Honestly, if there were a simpler way to sell their personal data to retailers for people who want to do so, that probably would be more appealing for the users.
This just in: Author/professor/CEO whose books/classes/company are about manipulative technologies… voluntarily installs manipulative technologies.
Why the fucking hell do you need any of these?!
Yup, I have none of them, and I still get a pretty good deal.
Most of my spending is at Costco, and they send me a paper ad once/month, which I'll go through and add relevant stuff to my list (in a separate app). But even if I don't get a discount, their prices are still better than most (e.g. eggs are normally $2.50 or so per dozen, whereas the grocery sells them for $4+). If I'm going to spend more than normal, I'll check a few sites before going out (or ordering online), and sometimes I'll ask the store clerk to price match to avoid multiple stops. The one place I have an app for is on my old phone, and it's for Target because they actually have decent sales sometimes. I don't check very often, but I will when I'm going to go buy a bunch of gifts for birthdays or holidays or whatever (and again, I'll check multiple sites first), and I use the 5% off w/ the Target debit card.
I literally don't bother with any loyalty programs. My grocery store's loyalty program isn't needed for discounts, it's only for a discount on gas at some gas station I don't go to (and isn't even next to the store). There's another with a better loyalty program (they have their own gas stations), but they're further away and it would cost me more in gas to go there than I'd save.
So if we need something, we'll look for coupons or whatever before setting out, we don't use an app or loyalty program. I'm pretty sure we end up wasting a lot less money this way.
I stopped reading the article after it just became a list of apps. Felt like a thinly veiled ad, and if not, annoying af.
tiktok brain
Sorry, I don't know what that means, I don't have Tiktok. I'm talking about the whole article being vapid, just multiple paragraphs that are lists of apps:
It could be Class Dojo, Brightwheel, Bloomz, or TalkingPoints. It could be ClassLink, SchoolStatus, or PowerSchool.
Is it like brand name dropping to keep people's attention or something?
A huge number of apps these days are web sites compiled into an app, and it shows. For example, an app should be able to remember your address and payment information without signing into an account, yet so many don't. Almost like they want to force you into signing up. Why might that be?
Just give me a mobile web page if you're going to do that shit.
I have an app for my sprinkler system and it's a fucking nightmare. Not only is it basically just a web API, it's so transparently just a glorified browser with access to exactly one site that frequently my phone thinks that app will work for whatever else I'm trying to open.
Document? Sprinkler app.
Web Page? Sprinkler app.
Installing from a source other than Google? Oh you better believe the sprinkler app can do that.
Doing anything takes longer to load than it would take me to walk from anywhere on my property to the fucking box and hit whatever button I need to hit.
It frequently forgets what I entered for preferences. I can tell it a week ahead what days I want it to skip but if I do that more than 24 hours on advance I might as well not have done it at all.
Oh you want to make a payment online? Let your sprinklers do that for you.
YouTube video? Sprinkler app.
YouTube video about fixing your fucking sprinkler system? Sprinkler app.
Apparently the one thing it can't do is effectively manage my water usage. It's ONE job
shit that's amazing
Document? Sprinkler app. Web Page? Sprinkler app. Installing from a source other than Google? Oh you better believe the sprinkler app can do that.
Android apps tell the system which URLs they can open. If you click a Google Maps link, it can prompt you to open it in the Google Maps app. It sounds like whoever created the sprinkler app misconfigured the app and it's saying that it can open all URLs, not just the URLs it cares about. They probably read a tutorial about how to make a webview in Android and didn't know what they were doing :)
Almost certainly. If the guy who was making yandere simulator was tasked with a sprinkler app, it wouldn't be much worse than it currently is.
I don't know shit about fuck when it comes to programming, but I know bad programming when I see it.
I don't know shit about fuck when it comes to programming, but I know bad programming when I see it.
Thanks for this! I often wonder if non-programmers can see this. Such horrible programmers. And embarrassingly low bar for company outsourced it.
Some find it scary that AI might take programmers’ jobs. I like to think that it’s these type programmers being replaced, and I’m kinda keen on having that.
Is it actually opening up the Sprinkler app for all those other purposes, or giving you a choice dialog? If it's actually opening up the app, maybe installing Intent Intercept would at least make it a choice dialog, as it also tries to open everything (just to show information about the request; it's a dev tool).
I have never actually tried, it's just suggesting it as an app that can do those things.
So, giving you what I called the choice dialog. That makes sense. Intent intercept wouldn't help then, it would just give you one more basically irrelevant choice to do all the things (although it's useful for developers).
I'm sure it can't actually do any of those things, but it would be nice if it would stop suggesting that it could when I try to open up certain things
Just give me a mobile web page if you’re going to do that shit.
There's some apps that just load a site, but the site refuses to load if you load it in a regular browser? Why?? Spoofing the user-agent would probably work around that, but I haven't tried.
Even pretty basic websites will remember filled out data without an account, it's just pure laziness if a full on app doesn't do it.
If the apps wouldn't be slow React Native or whatever "multiplatform framework" crapware, then I'd actually say that well designed, native Swift UI (iOS) or Material (Android) apps can enhance the user experience for a lot of services that are otherwise offered via website. Native integrations with shortcuts, widgets, fully supporting accessibility features of the OS etc.
The problem is most apps are just low-effort web app conversions.
The problem is most apps are just low-effort web app conversions.
If only that. Web apps are relatively well sandboxed. Most dedicated apps (that should be websites) are designed to harvest as much data as they can and spam you with notifications/ads.
Hell I use my garden diary selfhosted service via a webapp (hortusfox).
Just put a direct link on my homescreen. With the included favicon it almost looks like a native app.
Yep! Most of my "apps" are just web app shortcuts or self hosted PWAs
I just go without.
the overwhelming majority of apps are nothing but websites wrapped in apps that strip away all the privacy and protections anyway, and demand far to many permissions for shit that are completely irrelevant to their purpose (because they want to siphon literally everything out of your phone and monetize the information).
I'd rather miss a deal, a sale, or whatever, than to deal with that shit.
well it is not just that, websites stopped working properly. I almost always run into a problem trying to book a ticket from an airline company's website.
I recently had a rather baffling experience trying to preemptively avoid this by downloading the stupid app right away, only to discover I needed the website version anyway.
I was attempting to add my Known Traveler Number to an already booked trip with Southwest Airlines, booked by someone else. I was able to link the trip to my account right away in the app, no issue. And I could see the KTN field for my ticket sitting there, empty, greyed-out, and not interactible. I opened up the moble version of their website, completely unsurprised to find it was identical to the app, except for the detail that the KTN field there was functional. Put in the information, changes reflected in the app instantly, and I was in the TAS-pre line that afternoon.
Why did the two versions obviously built from the same codebase have two different sets of capabilities? Why was the website the more capable of the two this time? I have no clue. All I know is I never want to be a developer at a corporation where I'd have to be responsible for this flavor of trash.
When the app is prompting you to accept cookies
Used get my haircut at one of those "no appointment needed" haircut chains. Then they got an app, and every time I went it was "Why aren't you using the app? You need to use the app. Next time use the app. Download the app on your phone. It's gonna be an hour wait because you didn't use the app."
Now I just go to a local place.
I just cut my own hair.
But yeah, this trend is frustrating. When I get food from Jimmy Johns or a handful of other quick meal places, they bring up the app every single time. Yeah, I could get a free sandwich or whatever occasionally, but I really don't want yet another app on my device. If that choice resulted in a worse experience, I'd find a different service.
This is what CalDAV is for. We don’t need apps. We don’t need Calendly or Google Calendar or some BS.
As someone who needs to let other people schedule time on my calendar without wanting to give them every detail about my personal life I find Calendly to be incredibly useful. But I direct everyone to their website instead of the app, which I've never used.
You can break those up into private vs. public calendars
Great, now I have two calendars to manage.
I mean most calendar apps like the default in LineageOS & ikhal aggregate calendars & have a simple selection + coloring for the two calendars. It isn’t rocket surgery.
Okay, now how do I get that second calendar's availability to someone who isn't using CalDAV so we're not playing email ping-pong trying to find a time to meet?
Why assume everyone else has Google?
I don't. Most of the people I have to deal with actually use Exchange. Either way, the question stands: How do I share my availability across systems without giving them details about my other meetings?
Microsoft is the same as the corporate Google overlord. Both entirely evil to the core.
You either create new calendars or you share meetings ad-hoc thru ICS files manually. This probably depends on the type of work you do tho. This would not affect me since I don’t need folks randomly scheduling meetings with me for this to be a thing—instead the “Are you free X?” conversation is quick & painless.
Just yesterday, Mrs. Warp Core was trying to enroll with an online service. The self-service email confirmation link refused to function correctly in Firefox on a desktop operating system (Windows in this case). It worked flawlessly on Firefox+iOS. Said link also shuttled the user straight off to the phone app.
I'll add that nearly ever other aspect of their public facing web, including the online chat support, worked flawlessly everywhere I tried it. This all just reeked of hostile design.
When asked about why this is, I simply said:
The browser provides good security and choice for the user. Apps provide good security and control for the vendor.
Open source social media app: 30MB full size.
Privative social media app: 300MB install + 500 MG data full size 700MG
Go figure.
I could have thousand of apps. If they were not packed with intrusive software to get all my data and to lock the company IP.
I use the Voyager Web App lol, only gotta store browser cache and cookies. Take that private social media!
I legitimately do not have enough space on my phone to install all the crappy bloatware of all the stores I go to. They quite literally ask the impossible of me.
I have yet to see an app that does something a website could not do...
Harvest data more efficiently for our corporate overlords :)
most apps are just containerized websites.
You know why?
Cause browsers do a lot to protect your data from invasive sniffing.
but if you containerize it in an app, you can remove all those pesky safety measures Which lets you turn a customer into a product by siphoning up all their data and information.
I work in a manufacturing environment. A few years ago they decided they needed a company social media app. They hired, or more likely were sold the idea by Salesforce and built this stupid ass website, then went on a fucking War campaign to get people to install the app on their phone.
They demanded. They begged. They removed functions of HR to the app exclusively. When we protested they simply said no, no room to negotiate, no give. You will use the app or you will not have access to certain information required to do your job. When they closed the plant one day and posted it on the app, they threatened to write up an entire shift that showed up to work anyway without knowing any better.
Because apparently, when you get up at 4 am the first thing you're supposed to do every day is check an app on your phone to see if you have work that day.
They used to just push out a robo call.
When we have committee meetings with HR they go something like this.
HR: how can we get you guys on the app
Committee: how can we retrieve these functions from the app
HR: you can't
Committee: that's your answer.
There have been at least 6 versions of this meeting that I have been a part of.
Most of my coworkers are older than me. Few of them have fancy phones, generally the most basic phone you can get. A number of my coworkers are on parole or work release and have limited access to smart phones for one reason or another and literally have no access to the app.
I was chatting with one of the IT gals recently and apparently resistance to the app is pretty widespread. When I said "venture capital IT firm" she gave me a high five.
They want everyone using this thing and maybe 15% of the company has it. Then they switched to Workday.
It hasn't gone well.
I'm surprised you guys havent started the push of "If you are going to force us to have this app for essential day to day work, then you need to provide us with phones to put it on, because we can not be expected to devalue our personal devices with excess work related use"
I did mention at one of these meetings that we wouldn't give them space on our personal devices for free, it did not change their tune. The union has been hammering them on it during negotiations but I doubt they'll budge on that and we have bigger issues to deal with so they won't let it be a sticking point.
Someone should analyze the app and see what permissions it needs, cause it could be a much bigger sticking point than anyone realizes if its spying on your phone activities.
I did mention that when I connected to it via a VPN I could see my outgoing traffic spike suspiciously, that particular member of HR is no longer with the company and few of those remaining have the technical background to understand why I find that problematic.
Sadly around here, you're either on board with the direction the ship is sailing, or you're not on board. Those is us in bargained positions have been fine, and voice our frustrations freely. But management does not have the same freedom to do so.
Clarify the app is required by the company (hr) for your job duties as mentioned when it was stated every employee's responsibility to ensure the work site is open via a phone app. They'll be happy to confirm that.
Go see your master agreement about tools supplied by company. That will be in even passable contracts because it's usually an audit issue.
Ask company for tool as per contract. "This device here is not a work device and is neither secured nor managed by I.T." was what we said.
Ask your shop steward to ask the union to explain to the company that their HR is demanding the use of tools the company will not then provide, which is a concern under section 17p5b.1 "proper tools and training as provided during workday for onsite work required by employees"
If they're dicks you can try to hit them up for training on how to use the phone.
Teams is why we all have fancy pixel7 company-issued phones. TEAMS. And, since only one guy is on standby after-hours, the rest of them are shut off at 4:49 pm. So lame.
So we've been down that road. There are company computers available for that purpose, and training has been provided. It's a joke we tell each other around here that the only training we get is on the app.
For the handful of folks who are legally prohibited from having a smart phone, the state has requirements in place that they be notified of any schedule changes in advance, they're often the first to know.
The CEO frequently holds little meetings and fields questions, that's the next route.
I don't know what they were sold or why they're so insistent that we download the app, but their feverish insistence that we download it sure makes me suspicious.
Not sure anyone actually read the article, cuz yall are talkin about apps vs. web sites, and data collection. Two points which are briefly covered, but ultimately shrugged off in favor of the larger thesis:
Smartphones … meant [companies] could use their apps to off-load effort. … In other words, apps became bureaucratized. What started as a source of fun, efficiency, and convenience became enmeshed in daily life. Now it seems like every ordinary activity has been turned into an app, while the benefit of those apps has diminished.
I’d like to think that this hellscape is a temporary one. As the number of apps multiplies beyond all logic or utility, won’t people start resisting them? And if platform owners such as Apple ratchet up their privacy restrictions, won’t businesses adjust? Don’t count on it. Our app-ocalypse is much too far along already. Every crevice of contemporary life has been colonized. At every branch in your life, and with each new responsibility, apps will keep sprouting from your phone. You can't escape them. You won’t escape them, not even as you die, because—of course—there’s an app for that too.
It’s not simply the code delivery mechanism, and it’s not whether the data exchange is safe from prying eyes… It’s the fact that a digital UX has invaded every aspect of human interaction, including mourning.
At every branch in your life, and with each new responsibility, apps will keep sprouting from your phone. You can't escape them. You won’t escape them, not even as you die, because—of course—there’s an app for that too.
Except that's just straight up not true. You can't escape it? You can't escape installing the Michaels app to get a $5 discount coupon?
I'm absolutely flabbergasted by what I'm reading here because I have no idea what the hell any of these people are doing in their lives where they're collecting this many apps out of necessity. This is entirely selection bias. They seem to be incapable of resisting the pull of trashy, useless apps, and insist the whole world is.
Nothing is stopping you from walking into any of these businesses, getting your purchase, paying with a card, and leaving.
Some stores require you to use the app for order pickup. Why they have the Menards app installed I have no clue. They've always been way behind with e-commerce, but their website works perfectly fine.
Some stores require you to use the app for order pickup.
Sounds like a store to avoid like the plague.
I think you’re presenting a terribly myopic viewpoint. A lot of companies make the process of interacting with them so painful if you don’t use their app, that you feel hounded, harassed, and yeah, in some cases, forced to use their app. Do you really think your idea here hasn’t been considered by the author? Of course it has, because like most older people (in their 30s and 40s), that’s how it always used to be. The author is complaining that the way it is today, it can be difficult or borderline impossible to do the very thing you seem confused about.
5 USD is a lot.
Yes, as annoying as apps for everything is, very few are necessary, or even useful. I have had no problem going though life with minimal apps.
download our app
Nah
delete account...
Literally me
One big supermarket chain here has an app where you get a few cents bonus discount on already discounted items with the app coupon. The in-store announcement praises it as the first place of some insitute's supermarket app ranking. Even if that institute were legit, the ranking fair and the spot well-deserved, I always felt like that's a competition with no winners.
And the app is just a glorified website (Electron app).
Do most people even know what a phone app is??!
You know what else is overrun? Paywalls or other “requirements” where I need to signup and/or pay to access something that should be free.
Don’t get me started on those fullscreen ad interstitials that force me to watch an ad I’m not interested in before I can continue either.
Let’s face it, the Internet today fucking sucks and it’s partly to do with these so-called news outlets like the Atlantic.
I miss the days when barely anyone heard of the web. Sure, it wasn’t as feature rich, but then again, those features are overly abused in the name of capitalism anyway. It’s like those strip malls that have nothing but shitty restaurants, nail salons, and tax preparers. Gone are the days of fun stores like hobby shops, comic book stores, local mom & pop toy stores.
They just sucked the fun out of it all. 😡
I have to look for datasheets quite ofen and every damn company requires you to log into their shitty login system to get them.
It's exhausting
Amount of store apps on my phone: zero.
My wife has an app that is basically a card holder. Instead of pulling out a loyalty card, she pulls up the one app that has all of them scanned/copied. It's great.
Nice. I used to have a handful, and now I just don't bother with the loyalty program at all. My local grocery's program is mediocre at best (discount at a gas station I don't use) and isn't even required to get discounts, so I don't bother. And they don't even need an app, just a phone number, so I just refuse to tell them my number because I'm getting zero value from it.
Likewise for pretty much everything. The only one I actually use is Target, and that's because I get 5% off using their debit card, plus some random discounts through the app. I don't go there very often, but when I do, I'll generally time it when there are some good discounts to stack (usually it's for birthdays or school, and I have a month or so leeway in when I go).
So yeah, no store apps for me.
The first, if it's Kroger, don't have to use a phone #, or yours at least. But honestly I'd recommend not getting groceries there.
No, we avoid our local Kroger store (different name here), but when we go, I use my parents' number since they go there a lot and frequently use the fuel rewards. Our local grocery is supplied by Associated Food stores, which has the "Food Club" and related store brands.
The main options in my area (Utah) are:
Kroger sub-brand Smith's - not very convenient in my area, but the stores are large and have everything
Associated Food brands - smaller, more plentiful stores
Walmart/Sam's - I avoid like the plague, but they're just as plentiful as AF brands
Target - crap quality and high prices, not an option at all
Costco - good selection and great quality for the price
random specialty shops - higher price, but niche selection
Most of our spending goes to Costco, most of the rest goes to specialty shops, and we fill in the gaps with the local grocery chain. We spend something like $100/month at the grocery store, so it's not worth interacting with their loyalty program.
This piece has no real point. No hidden info, no resolution, no exposé, no call-to-arms really.
It's just "there are way too many apps", which we already knew.
What a weak article.
Yeah. The Atlantic kinda sucks.
It used to be a sort of second-rate New Yorker, except now The New Yorker is a second-rate New Yorker.
Harper's is still decent though. It's pretty much how it's been for years.
It’s behind a paywall for me. Good to hear I don’t have to bother with an archive link
This....is a BATTERY SUCKING LIE PEOPLE!! - Aldi ad
I actually often prefer using apps over websites, because my phone is quite slow and using a browser is often way slower than an app.
Particularly since some companies have made their websites intentionally shit so that you'd be encouraged to use the app instead. I noticed that with out local flavour of door dash, where the website got slower and clunkier and generally more shit right around the same time that the "Use our app!" banners got more obnoxious.
This doesn’t have to be the case but developers have been chasing bloated fads/frameworks for the over a decade instead of being reasonable with their technology. Résumé-driven development…? YAGNI.
The most ironic part...
.... an ad for an app for the article....
I recently switched to GrapheneOS and decided to avoid the Google Play store entirely, and honestly, the inconveniences have been pretty limited. The only bank I've had trouble with is Citi, everything else (I've tried several others) work fine through the browser. Likewise for most services I use, the web version works fine, though occasionally I'll need to use the "desktop" version.
Some services just don't work properly on the web, but most of the ones I used to use through an app work just fine. Give it a try, maybe together we can send a signal that apps should only exist when they provide value.
It still depends. I live in China and the internet here suckass. Every product, say taobao(Amazon), xianyu(eBay), Alipay(PayPal), WeChat(instant msg), banking, etc. that is crucial to your daily usage mandatories an application. The API is closed and the webapp has no functionality other than a banner with "go fuck our mobile app". The only way to bypass these privacy beast apps is to live in an isolated wood cabinet with self-sufficient agriculture.
Doesn't WeChat do more than instant messaging, though?
Yes, it steals your soul, spies on you for the cccp and sells your privacy to anyone with a buck fifty (except to you).
You mean the built-in browser with shitty nonconsistent API? Yeah it’s used widely. Some crazy dudes even put earthquake forecast on it.
How does it work?
Yes. From my experience, it is an everything app and you can pay for things instead of using alipay.
Wow, that sucks. I imagine government policy has a significant influence here...
I wish sites that do have PWAs would stop funneling people towards their app.
Especially Patreon, where patronages started using their app would be 30% more expensive for their users than patronages started through their website because of the Apple (and probably Google) tax. Patreon is aware of this tax but keeps advertising their fucking stupid app! You have a Progressive Web App that's works perfectly! Stop it! Get some help!
Twitter Lite is now the fastest, least expensive, and most reliable way to use Twitter. The web app rivals the performance of our native apps but requires less than 3% of the device storage space compared to Twitter for Android.
65% increase in pages per session
75% increase in Tweets sent
20% decrease in bounce rate
yet they kept pushing their native apps, probably because they can collect more data through them. The web is way more sandboxed than regular apps.
That's less an endorsement of PWAs and more a condemnation of how garbage the native app always was.
I have never encounteted a PWA that works better than a website OR an app - this from users actual usability viewpoint. They are a cancer, that sits right in between the worst of both worlds.
I like apps for stores I frequent. Most people do.
Having 150+ is a personal problem.
This is partly corporate greed and partly a failure of the Web. A website should be all you need. You shouldn't need a separate app for every little thing.
It's not a failure of the web, it's a failure of corporations to accept their place as just a tab in my browser. It's also easier to track users, exploit vulnerabilities, etc. from within a mobile app.
Also, push notifications. Most things could be done from a browser, but corpos have to have their push notifications.
It doesn't matter if you're the guy who turns every notification off and manages all those... 9/10 people won't.
If all I'm doing is looking at your catalog, it should work in a mobile browser. That way if I - a Tarheel - find myself in the midwest, I can go "does Menards have 1/4-20 hanger bolts?"
I'll install an app if it runs mainly on my phone, like a media player or a calculator or maybe even a file viewer. Mobile games...that ship has sunk, frankly.
But I mean, you gotta install an app if you want that functionality. The key thing is if you do or do not have full control of that app. While you allow it freedom in your 🤳📱, is it doing stuff you are not aware of that you don't want it to do. Like I found an app to do a sound sweep. Great, but will it go thru my contacts while I'm at work? It is going to learn about who I work with because it has blue tooth access. That's just nefarious shitty business that should be illegal. Either tell me what it does or don't do anything other than want you say it does. I also write my own apps for photography stuff and I wouldn't want to have to go ask a judge if I can please use my phone for specific programming I want to do.
Isn’t that the promise of App Clips? iOS and Android both allow you to run a mini app temporarily for shopping and not cluttering your system.
What they mean is iPhones have pitiful storage levels for the huge amount of money they cost
This is why everything apps are so popular in many parts of the world. Using a mini-app from the internet running within another app is far preferable to downloading a whole app you may never need to use again. The way they do it in China is so seamless even if you've never visited the business before. There's never any special account creation or entering of payment information.
Obviously it's pretty terrible in terms of user privacy since the everything app has basically unchecked access to all of your personal information and habits, but the convenience is incredible and feels decades ahead of how apps work in the US.
This is why everything apps are so popular in many parts of the world
What's wrong with a web browser? I know it's not as seamless, but it's far less limiting and literally any company can create a site, regardless of their size. There's systems like Google Pay that avoid you having to enter your credit card details on every site.
Even the best websites don't feel as smooth as native UI elements, and somehow browser compatibility is still a very common issue. Signing in with Google and using gpay for checkout is kind of close, but each website has different design elements complicating the experience while giving up the same amount of your personal data as if using an everything app.
Among other things said, you lose access to push notifications / scheduling which a lot of apps are reliant on.
You could have those come in an email instead, but now it's not personalized to the app or notification type, and if you're like me, I actually disable alerts on my gmail because most of the things in there aren't important and it was too disruptive.
you lose access to push notifications
Web apps have supported push notifications for a long time now. I think even Safari supports them now.
Those aren't the same, they require the browser to be open.
I don't know if that means it works with a tab in the background though if the browser is open but you aren't on their page, but it'd make sense if it did work that way.
Edit: Further looking at this, maybe that's just on Android. They might work on iOS as expected but only if you add the web app to your home screen as an app, and that's only in 2023 when iOS 16.4 was released.
Edit: Okay it looks like it should work on Android too, I saw some older stuff. I'm seeing some complaints about delivery times though not being immediate.
It usually works well on Android. I use it on a few forums.
I'm seeing some complaints about delivery times though not being immediate.
That's the same with every Android app, though. When you're not actively using your phone, some apps are put to sleep, which also stops their notifications. Very common on Samsung phones especially. You can usually add an app (or installed PWA) to a list of apps that you don't want to sleep.
How is that better than a web browser? Web browsers were supposed to be the "everything app".
Web browsers don't integrate to a single account and payment system, nor do they preemptively load entire websites before you start browsing. So you're always waiting for actions to complete or for images to load which feels slower. Mobile websites also tend to be very bloated slowing things down further than if the same functions were done natively in an app. There's also no consistency between websites so you never know when something will/won't work nor how far away you are from checkout. And then to top it all off there's browser compatibility, which is typically pretty poor for anything that isn't Chrome/Safari.
If a web browsers could really do the same thing all these companies wouldn't feel the need to make their own device specific apps.
Us lemmings will never be comfortable with this level of centralisation.
Nobody makes your download any damn app. You can just not do it.
I remember getting a boarding pass from an airline that was only offered in their app or printed at the airport, no email/download image/PDF option. I didn't have to install their app, but I would have had to waste time at the airport otherwise. I removed it when I was done and left it a negative review.
Couldn't even get into a baseball game recently without having to download an app
I swear that has to be illegal
Should be. I bought tickets on the official website but they would not accept receipt or even verification from that website. Needed a qr code and only way to get it was with app. Had to step out of line, download the app, remember login I had generated from website, login and pull up the qr codes for my tickets.
Tell that to 2FA apps for banks and enterprise security systems.
My bank demands sms.
I want my own authentication app so I can access my account even if my phone is missing/dead
Bro wtf. I can’t pay for a parking spot without a feckin app.
In many cases this means avoiding the service altogether. So long as you are good with that, then yeah by all means, don't download it or use the service. I don't use plenty of services because I don't want their app. Instagram is one of those.
You can do almost anything with a website that you could do with an app. The only reason they are pushing the apps so hard is because they can collect a lot more data than a website can.
As Cory Doctorow put it, "An app is just a web-page wrapped in enough IP to make it a felony to add an ad-blocker to it."
I legitimately want to scream sometimes as I feel the continual death of local computing and actual software, and it depresses me to no end how few businesses or users see it for what it is.
And it's exactly this: a trap. A trap users people are racing into, and they have no idea, at all, how bad it's going to get when the doors close behind them.
The rest of us are left with little recourse. Looking at the difference between Outlook and New Outlook is genuinely depressing because that's the future we're all being shepherded into against our will. I swear, in like 10 years, Windows will mostly just be a kiosk for Edge.
I think for the vast majority of average users this has been true for a long time.
I'm with you 100% up to the "little recourse," I think there's more options now than there have ever been. Open source (including linux and self hosting) are about the only tech-future things I'm genuinely excited about.
There's still a learning curve and progress to be made, for sure. However, anecdotally, I've seen programming and hosting become vastly more accessible in the last 15 years. Also, not everyone needs to self host, people just need to know someone who is willing and able to set them up.
Not saying it's a guarantee, but it's a possible way out, at least. And being here on lemmy, reading and writing about these issues is a good sign there's movement in the right direction.
I agree with you on everything, other than
...it seems to me that it's never been better, there's free software for everything, osm data for mapping, it's just that our expectations have shifted.
This is the main reason why I seldom install anyone's "app".
Most of these apps aren't true apps anyway, they're just customized browsers that lead you to a website and are free to collect as much data from you and your phone as they want.
I'll go on your website first if I have to and 9 / 10 I get what I want. Besides, I'll only ever visit the service once or twice so I don't need to install a permanent app on my phone for that.
Also desktop mode to circumvent those phone detection systems and trying to force an app.
Desktop mode plus zoom out on iOS, sometimes… then over to a desktop browser app when that falls. Sigh
I wish. Every fucking bank has their own shitty app for 2FA instead of just using standardized and proven TOTP, no way around that.
Same about school apps the article mentioned since it's connecting to their (one of many) proprietary system, no website for that.
And recently got into the home automation rabbit hole. Lots of devices that require their fucking app, sometimes with mandatory cloud account, just to connect! And people in reviews even praise how easy it is, it's infuriating! I don't need light bulbs connecting to the internet, thank you very much.
Ha, sucker, you think your non-Internet-connected lightbulbs make you safe? My Internet-connected lightbulbs have sent my online-car to wardrive your neighbourhood and sniff your Zigbee network!
…if you see my car please tell it to come back to me, I need to go to the shops…
Joke's on you - I can't even reach my Zigbee devices in the next room, your car won't have a chance from the street. That'll make it easier to convince it to come back home though.
That's because you don't have enough zigbee devices. They have to be everywhere so that they can mesh. Have you considered a zigbee carpet? It's great to link rooms together and it can share data with the zigbee vacuum cleaner.
I get emails from school, with a link that opens a 3rd party app, which only displays a link that opens in the default browser. I've asked the school to just send me direct links to the announcements, but they say they can't. The site doesn't require authentication, but the URLs have UUIDs so I can't just guess what the link would be. The app is quite literally just a data exfiltration layer that does everything it can to make sure you can't bypass it. Good luck getting any other parents to give a shit though.
That's the big one, sadly.
All of the banks I've used in the past utilize email or SMS for 2FA, which isn't the must secure, but doesn't require an app.
They need to switch to Webauthn. SMS-based 2FA should’ve been big 10+ years ago, not today. I don’t really understand why this old style 2FA has been just now becoming popular lately.
I returned a bunch of smart outlets I got at Home Depot after I got fed up with waiting for the app to launch just to turn a light on or off.
I also don't want to have to talk to it, so switching to Home Assistant with Zigbee button remotes has made my experience so much better. And on the plus side, everything still works when the power or Internet goes out because I've got it on battery backup.
That's what started it all for me. I have some Hue lights for TV backlighting and started looking for alternatives when Philipps first threatened making their cloud account mandatory.
Threw out the bridge, works like a charm and I have been buying new devices and return everything I cannot setup locally but it's annoying because they don't always tell about their crappy app and cloud accounts on the product info.
The number I remember seeing was that on average, app users are seven times more profitable than web users. Sorry, no citation.
I suspect there's some selection bias in that regular/loyal users of a particular product or service are more likely to install the app, but it also affords the company greater access to send notifications and collect data. On the rare occasion that I install some random company's app for a specific benefit, I remove it when I'm done.
Around here, Target (department store chain) will let you order stuff through their app and pick it up in the store parking lot. If you order through the web you have to wait around inside the store to get it. I still won't install the app but this issue annoys me.
And then there's guys like me. I don't announce when I'm coming. I grab the items myself, and then I pay in cash. Nonsequential bills. I'm like a ninja! I can't be traced! Shashasha!!!! Pocket sand!
Then on the way home, if I see someone following me home, I make 3 left turns. If they're STILL following me? I turn around, and I shoot them........a dirty look!
What? I'm not a psychopath. I just don't like being followed.
they're still fingerprinting and tracking devices, pairing that data to facial rec and movement tracking from cameras, and all that to register transaction data.
Target is full of video cameras and apparently they can ID people almost instantly now. Although I wear an N95 mask in the store, so maybe that helps. Main reason for wanting parking lot pickup is to stay out of the store, as infection prevention. I do go in when I have to, but try to get out quickly. I find it is quicker to get the stuff in the store and pay at self-checkout, than to order online and then wait around for them to show up at the service desk, so I mostly don't do the latter any more.
I recently ordered something from Walmart (I try to avoid it, but I could not find this one thing elsewhere) and you get a link in your email to notify them when you're in the pickup bay. The link goes to their app. I tried going to the website through Chrome, to no avail. It kept sending me to try to download the app. I did not. I don't shop there often enough to justify it. I drove to the pickup bay and lo and behold, the sign had a phone number you could call; a very pleasant person answered, asked my name, and I had my order in a few minutes.
I do have a couple grocery store apps for 2 reasons: 1 - there are some extremely low prices that you can only get by "clipping a coupon" within the app, and 2 - loyalty points do turn into cash back.
Safeway (a west coast grocery chain) has implemented it in the worst way possible, though. They had a physical loyalty card which you scanned at checkout/self checkout, which let you access lower prices. But now they have even lower prices only through the app. The app, however, 1 - does not let you enter your old loyalty card number, combine points and cleanly separate from the old method and 2 - you cannot use the damn thing at self checkout. You have to have a checkout clerk scan your barcode in the app, which is insane. I'm just glad Safeway is not my main grocery, because if it were I would have to change to some other grocery.
that's two apps today
Bonus: there are no keys
I was thinking about that a while back. There's got to be some sort of upper limit to collecting data being useful. I mean at some point it becomes more economical to just buy the data from one other thousands of companies data mining phones rather then going to all the trouble of building and maintaining your own data mining app.
They just sell the data. If they need user data (beyond basics) they might buy it from a data mining company.
This is almost completely true, but I would add the caveat that PWAs (progressive web apps) are not as easy to discover and less familiar to install as an app in an app/play store. It might also be because it's in Apple and Google's best interest to not streamline that. But it's still an obstacle nevertheless.
My favorite part of the 30 day dumb phone challenge I did recently: I couldn't install your crappy app even if I wanted to.
A little over halfway through the challenge, was paying for my order at a local eatery, and the cashier started plugging their new app and rewards points and digital coupons and shit. I was like "I'm gonna stop you right there: flip phone." and pulled it out of my pocket and brandished it like I was the sheriff of Luddite-ville.
Kinda like this, but "Flip phone!"
I just tell them 'no'.
That's what I used to do, but a good portion of the time they'd continue their spiel to try to change my mind. Have only had to brandish the dumb phone once, but so far it's got a 100% shut down success rate.
I just tell them I don’t have a phone. Even if I’m still holding it in my hand. Most don’t want to engage. They likely figure they’re not payed enough for that.
Same.
Cashier: "What's your phone number?" (For the store tracking/rewards/whatever)
Me : "Don't have one!" (As I remove the credit card from the case on the back of myphone)
Nobody has questioned it once. They don't want to ask in the first place but are forced to.
Huh. Doesn't happen often I guess but typically when I'm asked for a phone number or email I refuse or say I don't have one and it really throws people off and they usually refuse to complete the form or do whatever the hell it was they were doing.
Might vary by locale? Around here (South US) it seems like every single store has their own rewards/discount/whatever system that requires your phone number but it's not necessary for the transaction... It's just an extra info grab.
Sometimes the user facing POS/credit card reader will let you handle it (enter/skip) but many places rely on the salesperson to ask and then enter it or skip.
But, I also don't get around much so my experience is limited.
Just say 'no thank you'
and sounds like more fun!
Not gonna lie, it was. lol. That's one of several reasons I decided to keep it as my daily driver. It's technically a smart phone, though, I just had all the smart stuff disabled for that challenge. I've since enabled those back, but it still looks enough like a dumb phone that I can convincingly bluff with it.
Which phone is it? Might have to check it out.
Cat S22 Flip. Not without it's quirks, but I like it well enough. Had to digital detox, and it was great for that.
What apps do you have on it? Maybe some stuff like email or messaging app like Signal?
Thunderbird beta (email), Schildichat (Matrix), bank app, several local web apps (home assistant, etc), Mucke (music), key mapper, Aegis (totp authenticator), Organic Maps, Etar (Calendar), DAVx (contact/calendar sync), traditional T9 (keyboard), MALP and Snapcast (home audio)
Damn that's actually a good chunk
Lol, yeah. Covers pretty much all of my needs and most of my "wants". Even have a Lemmy app (web based) on there.
Where are you shopping where you are routinely encountering cashier's that are this pushy about the apps? The overwhelming majority of cash register attendance are underpaid employees that are just trying to get you through the line. They said the line because they have to say the line, but most have no intention of really trying to sell you on it.
Once upon A time, these things were just rewards programs, with the key ring bullshit. Were you signing up for each and every one of them too?
Yeah........try that in CVS.
And then a Kill Bill-esque fight scene breaks out. You know, like when she fought the crazy 88s. Except instead of a group of ninjas headed by a 14 year old Japanese girl, it's a group of swat team members headed by a 17 year old CVS register worker wearing a red CVS vest that he uses as a choking hazard on you in the fight.
Your goal is to dodge bullets, matrix style, while disarming one guard to shoot the rest of the guards dead, so you can fight this CVS employee one on one, as wave after wave of reinforcements constantly change the dynamic of the battle.
Finally, after defeating all the guards, you return to your car to return home, and as you make your turn onto the main road, thats when you see it. A world war 2 era tank firing mortors at you, as you're forced to weave all over the road. Other cars exploding, you're all over the road, a helicopter has joined the chase. Suddenly the helicopter is firing air to surface missles, and as you dodge them, they blow up the tank.
The helicopter then lands right in front of you on the highway. As you prepare for the final battle, the door opens it's your wife. You both embrace, and take off in the helicopter. Forever on the lamb. Always running from the threat of CVS employees that can strike at any time.
I don't go to CVS because they make the whole experience exhausting.
May I introduce you to RadioShack? Where they used to prompt you to sign up for a credit card, ask to record your personal info on a RadioShack loyalty card system (that nobody seems to remember), and one time, the lady asked me to impregnate her. I'm unclear if that was RadioShack policy, or if she was just itching. Either way it was kind of messed up, because I was 14. I looked and sounded older, but I was 14. She was like 30ish.
Gonna just leave us hanging on this one?
I stopped going to Radio Shack when they made purchasing a hassle too. Loved them as a kid in the 80s when I was doing build your own electronics.
What on earth are you people talking about?
I go to CVS all the time for random things, I've never once been pushed to use an app, nor have I ever encountered anyone that is legitimately pushing you to do anything after a simple no.
Really? You never used kung-fu to disarm swat teams, killing dozens with their own guns, while never taking damage yourself? You never sped through your local streets as tanks shot mortors at your toyota geo?
You're telling me your wife never saved you with rockets fired from a helicopter in a high speed highway chase?
Yeah........you didn't read a single sentence of the comment you replied to, did you? Aw hell. What makes me think you'll read THIS far into the message??? Tiktok is just what this generation has been needing. An entire generation of kids who don't waste their time reading!
I...is the implication you would have no other choice but to install their app if you didn't have a flip phone?
I'm baffled by these comments. Who the hell is actually listening to these people and installing apps on their phone just because a cashier mentioned it?
It's not that they're going to convince me, it's that it's annoying they keep trying (likely by management)
TBH I dont use an app for anything that can be done in the browser, especially when mobile websites ask me tl get their app.
I'm the same way. The less apps there are on my phone, the better. Also, using the web app is the only way to block ads on certain sites such as Instagram or Twitter.
then there are companies like yelp who disable their mobile site and make their desktop site as shitty as possible on mobile to force you to the app.
Doesn't really sound like a company that I would want to do any business with then.
What’s that other shitty company that constantly pesters you to download the app every time you average the site? Teddit?
For reddit, just type in
old.reddit.comand those nags disappear.true but also old reddit is awful to navigate on mobile.
Eh, I prefer it to new Reddit on mobile, especially with all the nags.
Huh, is that why I haven't used yelp in years?
I wish for a browser addon to just block those app download requests when it smells them. The answer's only gonna be no for all that, dawg.~
I only have the Starbucks app so my fancy Sunday coffee is done right and they don't call me Corey Sangeetha or Coarse Kangaroo.
There's your problem right there.
Does this author not understand how dumb this makes him look? You downloaded an entire app, in the checkout line, for a $5 coupon on something you were likely overcharged for in the first place?
If only there was a universal form of payment that you could keep in your pocket and pull out to use anytime with very minimal interaction. Maybe a card or something.
Why are you using them?
Why are you using all of them??
Why the fucking hell do you need any of these?!
This is literally the 2024 equivalent of your mother having a dozen toolbars in Internet Explorer because she kept clicking on coupons.
Just go to the place, pull out your credit card, pay the cashier, and leave. How the hell does any functioning adult blame the technology when they have this little self control?
People who are proud of getting a good deal via an app break my heart. Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash. They just like the feeling of getting a bargain. They don't consider that the prices are artificially inflated. They don't need the sale item. And in the long run they'll probably end up paying more when the stores know their purchasing habits and have A/B tested them enough to know how to provide as little as possible while charging as much as a customer can stomach.
If a coupon requires an app, I don't by that item. Especially when it comes to groceries. When it comes to store cards, most let you use a phone number instead of scanning the card. So plug in a random number at checkout. You can often get a hit on the first try. Then pay in cash. Dirty up someone else's data and give these stores nothing on you. Seriously, if people keep giving in, it's guaranteed to get worse. First the store card, then the app, what's next?
Whoa. What group do you run in? Literally everyone I talk to on a daily basis is.
I actually just thought through an average day, and the people I talk to regularly. I've had conversations with each and every one of them over the past few months about how we've had to make major changes to our lifestyles in one way or another because the money is going out faster than it's coming in. We're all solidly middle-class, for whatever that means anymore.
So what circles are you in where not everyone is looking for every possible discount they can get? Saving $5 on groceries means I can afford another gallon and a half of gas. I can't afford to be principled about privacy when those are the stakes. But it doesn't mean I have to like it.
I think age / location / profession have a lot to do with what socioeconomic circles people run in.
Not to mention luck of the draw.
For sure, but like...I'm a middle-aged software engineer in a low cost-of-living area. My parents always had enough on one income, but we're struggling on two.
I'm similar, but probably a bit younger. I make a good salary now (I'm in a leadership position), but the people on my team are a bit more "average." Software engineering will have a higher than average salary, but I'm talking $80-120k for the people who work for me in an area where the median income is $70-80k ($80-120k), and most are single or single-income.
There's a pretty stark difference between those who are financially stable and those who... aren't. I don't have everyone's salary, but here's what I see:
Notice I didn't say anything about income. Some of the financially unstable people have a much higher income (probably double the range above), and some of the financially stable people have a much lower income (e.g. one of my employees is single and just bought a house in a pricier area, while being at the bottom of the income range).
I obviously don't know your income or situation, but I think most people can do much better than they are without changing their income. And the more financially stable you can be, the more "quiet" confidence you get (i.e. you're not distracted by when payday is), and the more likely you are to get that promotion or better paying job. Success tends to breed success.
Check out The Millionaire Next Door, which gives lots of examples about how wealthy people tend to be frugal and careful with money. There's not really any secret sauce here, just delayed gratification and discipline. Obviously a $100k salary will go a bit further than a $50k salary, but even a median income can rocket you to an upper-middle class/lower-upper class retirement if you manage it carefully. I'm happy to walk through a scenario if you like, but that's a bit off-topic for this community and is probably better for one of the PF communities.
I have a rule of thumb for financial stability.
Level 1 - just buy groceries and pay for them without stressing
Level 2 - don't worry about when payday hits
Level 3 - don't worry about getting laid off
That makes a ton of sense. To add some numbers to it:
Getting to step 1 can be very difficult, especially for the lower class, but $10 or $20 at a time can get there. But it needs to be intentional, and that's really hard when working two (or three) jobs, so many just don't put in the consistent effort needed to get there. But once that first buffer is there, the rest becomes a lot easier since you're no longer getting pushed backwards.
I disagree strongly that $1k is enough for any one emergency. My healthcare deductible is higher than that. The last two times I've needed car repairs, the bill was $2-3k to get the thing back on the road. If one of our appliances breaks down, we might be able to replace it for $1,000 if it's the dryer or the dishwasher, but if it's the fridge, that's not close to enough.
$1,000 was plenty when I was in college back in the mid-00s, but I was single with no kids. That's just not a realistic emergency fund in 2024, and even less so if you have a family.
I never said it would definitely cover all emergencies, but it should cover most emergencies. For example:
It's not going to solve everything, but it's a nice milestone that means you can weather most emergencies, provided they come one at a time. The goal here isn't to guarantee that you're safe from everything (nobody should stop at this step), but to protect you from most of the small things that would otherwise go to debt.
If we raise the bar too high, people will get discouraged and give up. $1k is a pretty decent goal and can do a lot of good.
And it fucking SUCKS in the beginning, because for a very long time it keeps getting wiped out by emergencies. But the more emergencies you weather, eventually the fewer you'll have, and your buffer will grow.
Emergency funds are the most important tool for financial stability (after securing a living wage).
Exactly. Just take solace in knowing that each emergency that wipes out your e-fund could have been devastating debt, and the e-fund is doing its job.
Honestly, what you see isn't familiar to me at all. The people I know are very good at being frugal and wringing the last out of every dime, not being extravagant or frivolous, etc. We have no car payment on our ten-year-old minivan, own our home, and haven't been clothes shopping in years except to replace things that wear out, that sort of thing.
The problem isn't budgeting; we have a budget, and we stick to it pretty well. There are very few things we could cut, and doing so might save us a hundred or so dollars per month. The problem is that inflation has eaten up every dollar from my paycheck we used to have in surplus. The problem is that my salary hasn't kept up with inflation and nobody else around here is hiring.
Yes, you can budget yourself from the top of one financial class into the bottom of another one; and you can manage money poorly enough to drop from anywhere to the bottom of the heap. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a significant financial crunch happening for most people in the world right now.
Seems like everyone has their own preferred explanation as to why that's happening (corporate greed vs. government overreach), but the fact that it's happening seems pretty clear.
Yes, that certainly is a problem. Salary increases tend to lag inflation a bit, so you'd either need to switch jobs or wait to get caught up.
That said, wage growth has exceeded inflation for the last year and a half or so, so hopefully you'll get a yearly salary bump to help out. Our salary bump was higher than usual last year (about 5%), but still below inflation (8-9%), and I hope our salary bump this year will fix that (4% would be enough to catch back up).
But the fact that you've been able to stay financially stable despite high inflation means you're probably closer to "The Millionaire Next Door" than the average Joe drowning in credit card debt. If you can stay out of debt and put money away for retirement every month, you'll be doing fine in your 60s when you're looking at retirement.
Sure, if you follow the average advice (save 10%), then yeah, one bump-up is essentially expected. But if you're more aggressive, jumping up more than one level should be feasible.
This video talks about economic classes, and the portion I linked shows how you can go from $65k/year salary (middle middle class) to lower upper class by age 50 by just investing 10% of your income. So this is essentially middle middle-class to lower-upper class. If you do 40 years instead of stopping at 50, you'd have $3M by retirement age. If we account for 2% inflation, you'd have about $1.7M in today's dollars, which is almost to upper upper class. If you bump to 15% of your income, you end up with $2.6M after taking inflation into account, which is in that upper upper class range. So with just a median household salary, you can have an upper upper class retirement.
My circle of friends are also not strapped for cash. I’m confused as to how that’s so baffling to you. We’re very much NOT upper class.
I kinda think that not being strapped for cash is being upper-class.
Upper-class: Always having enough
Middle-class: Always having almost enough
Lower-class: Never having enough
"Class" is determined by income, "enough" is determined by spending habits. You could make $50k and have positive cash flow, or you could make $400k and always be strapped for cash. The higher your income is, the more options you have, but also the more exposure you have to more ways to waste your money.
This is a great video about this. Basically:
At each level, I see two types of people:
By this metric, not being strapped for cash is possible for pretty much anyone in the lower-middle class and above, and even those in the lower class could get there by stabilizing their finances so they can take some risks to increase their income (i.e. night school, quitting a bad job for a better job, getting CDL and financing a truck, etc). On the flipside, being strapped for cash is also quite possible at pretty much any income level, and I've heard plenty of stories about lawyers and doctors having trouble keeping up with debt payments because they got caught trying to keep up with those wealthier than them.
So I don't think "strapped for cash" is a good metric for economic class, income is, because you can make choices that can cause you to be paycheck-to-paycheck at almost any income level, as well as choices to maintain stability at almost any income level.
Add the 1% there. Generational wealth people. Private jets, multiple mansion homes, etc. They're far above the upper class. Totally different plane of existence from everyone else.
It's easy to say "stabilize your finances!" but on a practical level it's almost impossible to do when there's no wiggle room. You can't stabilize any finances if you're taking out payday loans in order to pay rent every month. It's not like there's any money to be put into savings if you're making $2,000 a month but putting $1,000 toward rent, since most people rather like to eat.
I'm thankful to not be in that situation, personally, but it's not something you can just wish your way out of. Even your examples require a certain level of financial breathing room that people don't tend to have when every dollar is spoken for. You can't finance a truck if your DTI is already high. You can't take CDL training or night school if you have to work two jobs just to keep food on the table.
But if you get into that scenario, you can just sell the supercar or downsize your house or whatever. That's not really an option for people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck.
I think income divided by local cost-of-living could be, maybe.
At the end of the day, irresponsibility with money is still a problem for sure. And keeping-up-with-the-joneses is probably a problem for some people. I'm not one of them, and none of the people I know are either, but I suppose some people have that issue. In my experience, though, most people who are struggling financially are not in those situations. They're just trying to keep their heads above water.
Oh, I 100% agree. But in many cases, taking payday loans is a symptom of other serious problems in someone's spending patterns and not necessarily an income problem. Maybe the car payment is too high, or perhaps they're paying too much for food. Whatever it is, that needs to get fixed to end the need for emergency cash.
If you're in the lower middle class or higher, there's no excuse for it IMO. If you're in the lower class, you'll need to get creative (government assistance, co-living, etc).
You say that, but in many cases, they still end up net worth negative. The problem here isn't with income, but spending, and you're not going to sell your way out of a spending problem.
Certainly. Economic classes are very much location-dependent. If you live in NYC or SF, you'd need to adjust the numbers a bit, likewise if you live in rural Mississippi or something. And there are calculators available online to help with that.
Pretty much everyone will say that though, because people are pretty bad at noticing the excesses in their own spending. If you're not standing out as being "weird" for spending so little, then you're probably "keeping up with the Joneses," because the average American is pretty irresponsible.
This is a pretty broad brush stroke to be sure, and I'm sure there are plenty who are legitimately struggling despite a conscious effort to cut costs. I'm just saying that many, if not most, people who aren't "financially stable" could make room in their budget to get financially stable, but instead end up throwing a ton of money down the drain due to interest.
Do you actually know anyone who's in this situation?
In my experience, it's not a choice they've made. Some people are bad with money, to be sure. I'm related to a few. But they don't typically just decide they're going to blow August's grocery budget on a new wardrobe; they have a job opportunity dry up after they already moved for it, or they had a messy divorce because their spouse was abusive, or they poured a ton of money into some career training that turned out not to give them any real, marketable skills. Some bad choices, some unavoidable occurrences, some terrible luck, but nothing that crosses the line to them being frivolous.
Thirty years ago, a family could weather one or two of those, no problem. My dad got laid off not too long before I was born, and he was the sole earner for our family. He got hired fairly soon after, but in the meantime we were fine.
I don't live a whole lot different than my parents did then. We have more kids than they did, but I'm in a higher earning potential career than he was. Plus, my wife and I are both employed. Yet if either of us were laid off, we would not last long on savings.
One thing I've learned as I get older: yeah, people are irresponsible. But the generations are pretty much the same, and trying to pretend otherwise is a good way to get clicks on your article but a bad way to actually get any meaningful insight about people. So if our generation is having more widespread problems than our parents' generation did at this age, it's probably not because we aren't as responsible as they are. Something systemic probably changed.
::: spoiler Those I know personally
Both sides of my family are generally fairly successful (middle class and upper middle class), with most of my cousins having completed a 4-year degree. My family is quite close, vacationing together almost every year, renting large houses in the middle of nowhere so we can spend time together (e.g. this year we had ~20 people in one house in nowhere Idaho).
My in-laws, however, are the opposite. My MIL completed a chef certification, but other than that, neither has completed formal education beyond K-12. They drive nicer cars, wear nicer clothes, and go to nicer restaurants than I ever did growing up (we thought the "cheap Chinese" place was a special treat). Both of them work, while I grew up in a single-income family. I don't know details about their financial situation, and I'm honestly preparing our finances so we can support them when they can no longer supplement their SS income.
My family is largely quite successful (siblings are professor, accountant, actuary, and software engineer), I work in a field with a lot of successful people, and my neighbors are largely fairly successful (mostly middle middle class to upper middle class). That said, I've had neighbors have cars repossessed, coworkers struggle w/ credit card debt, and people making more than me struggle with a house down-payment (and I bought in my late 20s making much less than I do now), and the reason for each is pretty obvious from the outside (they spend way more than me on hobbies, cars, and other lifestyle items). :::
That said, I do admit I have limited personal experience with people in this situation. However, I personally choose to live like I'm a level below my means so I have a cushion in case something goes wrong. And one of my life goals is to leave my career early to actively help people with spending problems at all income levels to break that cycle, hence why I'm so interested in this.
At the risk of sounding callous, this sounds like symptoms of the same underlying problem: lack of diligence. And no, I'm not saying they didn't "work hard enough" or they should "pull themselves up by their bootstraps," I'm saying they could have mitigated these problems by making different decisions:
::: spoiler Breakdown of those problems you mentioned
I fully appreciate that many people don't have the training or experience to avoid manipulation by others, which is a common thread here, so we absolutely need to improve our education system. But blaming others for your choices is a recipe for failure and isn't going to help you move forward.
I have made my fair share of mistakes, some of them have cost me a lot. But I refuse to blame others and instead choose to point the finger back at myself, and I think that has made all the difference. And that's what I'm getting at here: you can't change your present, but you can make choices to change your future.
::: spoiler Personal anecode about losing my job And that's the same today. I lost my job at the start of COVID right after my daughter was born (she was born in March, 2020, so we saw lockdowns come into effect while we were in the hospital). So I had a ton of medical expenses, few opportunities for work (I was a consultant at the time), and an uncertain economic future. But what I did have was 6-12 months expenses in cash. So we were fine, and it took me most of a year to find a new job because companies had frozen hiring (ended up w/ W-2 position because I couldn't network due to lockdowns). :::
That set us back a couple of years, but we were already ahead because we were living below our means. Fast-forward to today and we're back to being ahead because we continued to live below our means.
Here's an interesting article about household debt over time, which goes back to 1995 (so almost 30 years). A quote:
I read this as: debt got cheaper, so people got more debt. So people are in more debt today, but they're paying about the same to service that debt. So people are spending more than they used to, but they're able to do that because borrowing rates are lower.
The solution, then, isn't necessarily that people don't have enough income, it's that their expectations of what that income can buy is out of whack. In my experience, people largely paid for things w/ cash 30 years ago, whereas today paying with credit is a lot more common. People don't save up to buy things as much, and instead buy now pay later. So the real issue here is discipline, at least for those in the middle class and above.
My argument is that systemic change is access to credit, which has gotten a lot easier in the last 10-20 years where you can get a new CC or personal loan on your computer instead of actually having to go talk to someone at a bank. That means being irresponsible with money is easier, which I think encourages more people to do it.
So I do think younger generations (including my own, I'm a millennial) are more irresponsible with money and have higher expectations of what that money can buy than previous generations. Over the last 30+ years, real wages have increased consistently (i.e. after taking inflation into account), and we're back to the peak of the early 70s before the stagflation of the 80s. Yet people claim we're getting poorer, so I have to take that as people having unrealistic expectations instead of an income problem.
You and I have had remarkably similar lives, actually.
Same. I was a cashier and then a pharmacy tech.
Close. I think about half of my cousins have a degree; the other half went into trades.
—same, but—
Here's where we differ. My neighbors are not poor, but the neighborhood is not yet completely gentrified. We have some K12 teachers, some construction workers, a few military people, alongside some people in more white collar high-earning-potential professions.
Same. And it's happened enough that there's no way I can attribute it solely to bad decision making.
Same, though I had access to down payment assistance.
Thank you for being honest about this. I would personally suggest that you talk with some people who are in situations like you're talking about. Some of them knowingly made poor choices that led to their current struggles, but more often they were dealt one major blow or a series of minor blows at a time of high risk.
I say this without malice: many (if not most) people who are struggling have never been able to make that choice meaningfully. I'm glad to have been able to, but it's not common.
I wish you luck in that, I truly do. Please consult with people who have been in the situations you're talking about before you draw up a wonderful, shiny plan for their finances.
Sometimes, maybe. But the point I'm making isn't that no one ever makes mistakes. It's that one or two such mistakes can end up catastrophically for people who don't have far to wiggle. A person who is generally attentive to their finances but makes a couple of bad calls before they have a safety net can end up on the back foot for the rest of their life.
Hindsight being 20/20, you're always going to say you'd make different decisions when you have perfect vision as to the outcomes of the bad outcomes. But to avoid these in the first place, you'd have to have perfect view of the future.
I've been in a position several times where the job opportunity I accepted was the only one I was offered. Having a "doo doo plan" is great, if you have multiple options to begin with.
I agree with this to a point, but (hyperbole) nobody has ever gotten married truly thinking that they didn't know their spouse well. Even family and friends can be wrong.
The case in point that I'm thinking about for this one was a person who entered a front end web development training program with the promise of job search assistance upon graduation. Reviews of the school were good, personal anecdotes from graduates were good. It was only after the program that my friend discovered the cracks in the process (as he was falling through one). Due diligence was done, to the satisfaction of most reasonable people. In this case, I think he was taken advantage of. Speaking of which...
100% agree with you here.
I apologize, I was unclear about this. None of the people I've mentioned are complaining or blaming others for their current state. Every single one of them is actively working to improve their situations. I'm saying, as a person who watched the trajectory of their lives from the outside, they weren't the primary cause of their financial troubles.
I realize that it sounds like I'm leaving myself out of that, and I suppose I am blaming others here. But to be clear, I'm probably the most well-off of the people I'm talking about. In comparison to the people I'm talking about, my concerns are very minor. We'll be ok, and we're already working on improving our situation. And even I am not blaming any one person; I think the problem with my finances lies in historic inflation, a global pandemic, and corporate greed.
...if you know what the future holds.
[Ok, Lemmy is saying that this is too long, so I'm going to try to split my reply up.]
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Again, same. Though for me, it was December of 2019 and a son, and I was laid off in late January. Wild times.
We had carved away at our cash reserves building a house that our larger family could actually fit in, and they hadn't built back up yet. It was a calculated risk to do that rather than buy, and I wouldn't have changed the calculation in hindsight, but the one-two-three-four punch of house-child-layoff-pandemic within the span of a few months isn't really something you expect when you're doing the numbers.
I'm glad for you. And also: your situation is not normative.
A couple of things to note:
Those numbers end in 2010, which means that they're actually almost as far away from today as the beginning of that study is from the end of that study. A lot has happened in the last 14 years.
Those numbers also end right as the country was digging its way out of the 2008 financial crisis, which was largely caused (as I'm sure you recall) by debt mismanagement (specifically subprime mortgages). Those numbers, in and of themselves, are signposts of the very institutional and systemic changes I'm taking about.
It's impossible to disentangle the chicken and the egg here. Were people in more debt in 2010 because rates were low? Or were rates low because the economy was burning, largely because more people were in bad debt situations?
Actually, the data suggests that private per capita spending in the US has tracked more or less with inflation since at least 1960.
My parents used credit in the 90s. We had car payments and a mortgage (and their mortgage rate was in the double digits, no less—but it was still a smaller percentage of their single monthly income than my 2.8% mortgage is today, in a better field, with a second income.
Again, the chicken and the egg: do people not save up because they don't want to? Or because they can't? If our car dies, I can't save up to buy another. I have to buy now and pay later.
With your caveat, I'm amenable to entertaining your argument for a significant portion of the population. I just don't recognize it in practice.
I just don't see the numbers bearing that out. And anecdotally, it might be easier to sign up for a credit card online, but I was getting junk mail about credit cards on the day I turned 18, in 2003. One of my first jobs included trying to pitch a private label grocery store credit card to everyone who walked in. When I got to college (also in 2003), a credit card company had a booth there and was offering students free pizza if you signed up for a credit card. I didn't bite, but there was a substantial line at that booth. So it might be quicker now, but I haven't received a mailer for a credit card in years.
Me too. I think we might be the same person. This is honestly kind of weirding me out.
Housing costs as a factor of monthly income are back up to 2008 Financial Crisis levels, though; and over the last two decades that growth you're talking about has been concentrated largely at the top. The numbers support peoples' assertion that we're getting poorer.
Thanks for chatting with me about this. It's a really interesting topic.
And that's where I disagree.
These people having financial problems haven't had some crazy emergency happen (that I know of), but they do have obvious, expensive hobbies and habits. Some of them use tobacco products (cigs and dip), some collect expensive board games, most eat out a lot, and they drive late model cars. Compared to me, they have fewer kids, live in a similar area, and are often dual-income family (we're single income), so the glaring difference is lifestyle. I also look at other coworkers who are more similar to me (single-income, kids, etc), and they have been able to buy a house.
If I do some back-of-the-napkin math, the spending delta is tens of thousands more vs me. So to me, it's more a question of priorities than means, which would constitute "bad" decision making if they're not meeting their goals.
An FHA loan only requires 3-5% down, and non-FHA loans can often be as low as 10% with PMI. Houses in my area are pretty expensive now, many running $500-700k for something near-ish to work (mine isn't). At 10%, that's $50-70k, which is a lot, but people in my office should be making six figs, so saving $10-20k/year should be feasible (so 3-5 years saving). But that's a lot harder if you're paying $500+/month on a car payment (or worse, multiple car payments), eating out multiple times per week, and spending hundreds/month on hobbies.
Agreed, and I certainly intend to. The issue is, most people don't like to talk about finances, even with people they know very well. I would love to lend an objective second pair of eyes (completely free) to help spot areas they may have missed in their budgeting.
Here are my plans (please critique/provide more if able):
::: spoiler My ultimate gold standard Be involved with a non-profit/charity that:
If the org is a credit union, there are a lot more options, and my research shows that a credit union may only need a few hundred thousand dollars to get started. :::
::: spoiler What I've already done I actually started working on something like this w/ a family member, the plan was to pull money from customer's accounts and lock it away until they meet their goals. If they withdraw early, they'd lose whatever transaction fees I charged, which would be waived if they meet the target.
I would invest the money at rest to recoup the transaction fees and fund any cash bonuses. Once I got that working, I wanted to open an individual consulting part that would offer loans after a budget review, so this app would feed that non-profit.
But after I had a POC, the transaction processing org I was working with changed their pricing and made it non-viable for small transactions. I thought about releasing it w/o the bank account link, but that wouldn't be particularly interesting as an initial product. :::
I'd like to remove the "able" part of this, which is often an excuse. Yes, some people legitimately get stuck in a negative feedback loop, but a lot of people (perhaps most) could make meaningful changes to free up some cash flow. The difference between people who get out of bad situations and those that don't often comes down to discipline, not luck, yet so many people blame luck.
There are some things we could (and should) do as a society to make upward mobility easier (e.g. I'm in favor of something like UBI), but waiting for that is a fool's errand for those currently struggling and they should evaluate things based on their current situation. That means their choices are:
So when posting online, I always assume there's an opportunity to get out, and I go into any discussions with that assumption in mind.
No, that's a defeatist perspective.
What you need is to learn from your past. Mistakes happen, what matters is what changes you make going forward to avoid those mistakes in the future. For example, let's say your car gets repo'd, the solution isn't to do better at making payments on the next car, the solution is to buy a cheaper car or go without (bus, bike, etc). Cleaning up the mess would probably require some uncomfortable changes, but it is usually possible.
The "doo doo plan" isn't necessarily having a backup job offer, it's just whatever your backup is if the primary plan falls through. A signed offer letter and a start date isn't a job, you only have a job when you actually start. Some ideas:
A legitimate company will never require any form of payment from you for a job, whether that's equipment, uniforms, etc. If you see that, it's a fraudulent job offer.
Sure, but plenty of people get married while ignoring advice from family and friends. Yes, family and friends can be wrong, but they can also see things you don't. In any case, you can always continue courtship until you're comfortable with the other person.
The tricky thing is that hormones go crazy for the first few weeks and sometimes months of a relationship, and those hormones can blind you to the faults of the other person. Ideally, you marry someone for more than just "love" (however you define that), and you need to be capable of listing personality defects as well as positives so you can decide if there are any deal breakers. You need to assume the other person won't change the flaws you see, and you need to be okay with that. Essentially, approach it like a business contract (i.e. are you getting a fair exchange), but one where both parties currently like each other.
Of my friends, most of those that got divorced did so because of flaws others close to them pointed out, but they ignored, or assumed the other person would fix. One almost got divorced due to a flaw, but they were able to work through it and rescue their marriage. Those that didn't get divorced either got lucky (fairly common) or did their due diligence before getting married. I've had friends and family end a relationship after considering engagement because they decided those flaws would become deal breakers down the line. Unfortunately, most people don't do that, and for some people, it takes multiple failed relationships to figure that out.
That's certainly possible, and maybe he can seek recourse (lawsuit) depending on what they promised and what they actually delivered.
That said, the thing I think your friend could've done better is to find someone in the business and ask them about the training program. Most of them are complete crap, and a competent FE dev could tell you that you can't just learn to do their job in 6 weeks or whatever. Part of my job position is interviewing and hiring software engineers, and I see a lot of these applicants. Most of the time, their portfolio is only the work they did in that course, and they show zero initiative in exploring beyond it. I'm happy to recommend someone for an internship if they show that initiative (and we have hired a couple that worked out), but so many think completion implies there's a job waiting for them.
Let's look at each of those:
It can take a while for salaries to adjust to inflation, so hopefully the issues with your finances are resolved, or close to resolving. Mine hasn't yet caught up to inflation, but I think I'll be there this raise season.
sugar summed it up nicely.
We make a decent amount, but we’re priced out of buying a home right now. We have a solid amount of savings and stocks, and our only debt is my partner’s student loans which aren’t a ton. We just don’t think about money day to day.
If we want something, we just get it. But we don’t really want things, so we mainly just spend money on food and booze. And Steam games, but only if they’re 50% off or more.
We’re probably lower-middle to middle-class. Lower now, maybe mid-mid when we finally can buy a house.
Thats why Prime Day is such a big deal.
People think they are getting awesome deals cause its 50% off, are not going and checking price trackers to see the item had a HUGE price spike a week before Prime Day.
But they think they got 50% off and that gives them that massive dopamine rush, and that encourages more spending.
The Lowe's app is actually really handy. You can look up any item and it will tell you the exact isle and bay it's in for your store. No more wandering around or hunting for an employee to ask. It's the only store app I actually keep on my phone.
The point is it's bullshit that's not available on the Lowes website.
It actually is available on the website, but like most stores their mobile web experience isn't great.
Honestly, if there were a simpler way to sell their personal data to retailers for people who want to do so, that probably would be more appealing for the users.
This just in: Author/professor/CEO whose books/classes/company are about manipulative technologies… voluntarily installs manipulative technologies.
Yup, I have none of them, and I still get a pretty good deal.
Most of my spending is at Costco, and they send me a paper ad once/month, which I'll go through and add relevant stuff to my list (in a separate app). But even if I don't get a discount, their prices are still better than most (e.g. eggs are normally $2.50 or so per dozen, whereas the grocery sells them for $4+). If I'm going to spend more than normal, I'll check a few sites before going out (or ordering online), and sometimes I'll ask the store clerk to price match to avoid multiple stops. The one place I have an app for is on my old phone, and it's for Target because they actually have decent sales sometimes. I don't check very often, but I will when I'm going to go buy a bunch of gifts for birthdays or holidays or whatever (and again, I'll check multiple sites first), and I use the 5% off w/ the Target debit card.
I literally don't bother with any loyalty programs. My grocery store's loyalty program isn't needed for discounts, it's only for a discount on gas at some gas station I don't go to (and isn't even next to the store). There's another with a better loyalty program (they have their own gas stations), but they're further away and it would cost me more in gas to go there than I'd save.
So if we need something, we'll look for coupons or whatever before setting out, we don't use an app or loyalty program. I'm pretty sure we end up wasting a lot less money this way.
I stopped reading the article after it just became a list of apps. Felt like a thinly veiled ad, and if not, annoying af.
tiktok brain
Sorry, I don't know what that means, I don't have Tiktok. I'm talking about the whole article being vapid, just multiple paragraphs that are lists of apps:
Is it like brand name dropping to keep people's attention or something?
A huge number of apps these days are web sites compiled into an app, and it shows. For example, an app should be able to remember your address and payment information without signing into an account, yet so many don't. Almost like they want to force you into signing up. Why might that be?
Just give me a mobile web page if you're going to do that shit.
I have an app for my sprinkler system and it's a fucking nightmare. Not only is it basically just a web API, it's so transparently just a glorified browser with access to exactly one site that frequently my phone thinks that app will work for whatever else I'm trying to open.
Document? Sprinkler app. Web Page? Sprinkler app. Installing from a source other than Google? Oh you better believe the sprinkler app can do that.
Doing anything takes longer to load than it would take me to walk from anywhere on my property to the fucking box and hit whatever button I need to hit.
It frequently forgets what I entered for preferences. I can tell it a week ahead what days I want it to skip but if I do that more than 24 hours on advance I might as well not have done it at all.
Oh you want to make a payment online? Let your sprinklers do that for you. YouTube video? Sprinkler app. YouTube video about fixing your fucking sprinkler system? Sprinkler app.
Apparently the one thing it can't do is effectively manage my water usage. It's ONE job
shit that's amazing
Android apps tell the system which URLs they can open. If you click a Google Maps link, it can prompt you to open it in the Google Maps app. It sounds like whoever created the sprinkler app misconfigured the app and it's saying that it can open all URLs, not just the URLs it cares about. They probably read a tutorial about how to make a webview in Android and didn't know what they were doing :)
Almost certainly. If the guy who was making yandere simulator was tasked with a sprinkler app, it wouldn't be much worse than it currently is.
I don't know shit about fuck when it comes to programming, but I know bad programming when I see it.
Thanks for this! I often wonder if non-programmers can see this. Such horrible programmers. And embarrassingly low bar for company outsourced it.
Some find it scary that AI might take programmers’ jobs. I like to think that it’s these type programmers being replaced, and I’m kinda keen on having that.
Just request a copy of the source code! Oh wait
Yeah this is begging for !homeassistant@lemmy.world to replace that app.
Is it actually opening up the Sprinkler app for all those other purposes, or giving you a choice dialog? If it's actually opening up the app, maybe installing Intent Intercept would at least make it a choice dialog, as it also tries to open everything (just to show information about the request; it's a dev tool).
I have never actually tried, it's just suggesting it as an app that can do those things.
So, giving you what I called the choice dialog. That makes sense. Intent intercept wouldn't help then, it would just give you one more basically irrelevant choice to do all the things (although it's useful for developers).
I'm sure it can't actually do any of those things, but it would be nice if it would stop suggesting that it could when I try to open up certain things
Can !homeassistant@lemmy.world help with that?
If I could rip that thing off the wall and replace it with a spigot I would.
My wife wants it, and she cares more about the grass than I do.
There's some apps that just load a site, but the site refuses to load if you load it in a regular browser? Why?? Spoofing the user-agent would probably work around that, but I haven't tried.
Even pretty basic websites will remember filled out data without an account, it's just pure laziness if a full on app doesn't do it.
If the apps wouldn't be slow React Native or whatever "multiplatform framework" crapware, then I'd actually say that well designed, native Swift UI (iOS) or Material (Android) apps can enhance the user experience for a lot of services that are otherwise offered via website. Native integrations with shortcuts, widgets, fully supporting accessibility features of the OS etc.
The problem is most apps are just low-effort web app conversions.
If only that. Web apps are relatively well sandboxed. Most dedicated apps (that should be websites) are designed to harvest as much data as they can and spam you with notifications/ads.
Hell I use my garden diary selfhosted service via a webapp (hortusfox).
Just put a direct link on my homescreen. With the included favicon it almost looks like a native app.
Yep! Most of my "apps" are just web app shortcuts or self hosted PWAs
I just go without.
the overwhelming majority of apps are nothing but websites wrapped in apps that strip away all the privacy and protections anyway, and demand far to many permissions for shit that are completely irrelevant to their purpose (because they want to siphon literally everything out of your phone and monetize the information).
I'd rather miss a deal, a sale, or whatever, than to deal with that shit.
well it is not just that, websites stopped working properly. I almost always run into a problem trying to book a ticket from an airline company's website.
I recently had a rather baffling experience trying to preemptively avoid this by downloading the stupid app right away, only to discover I needed the website version anyway.
I was attempting to add my Known Traveler Number to an already booked trip with Southwest Airlines, booked by someone else. I was able to link the trip to my account right away in the app, no issue. And I could see the KTN field for my ticket sitting there, empty, greyed-out, and not interactible. I opened up the moble version of their website, completely unsurprised to find it was identical to the app, except for the detail that the KTN field there was functional. Put in the information, changes reflected in the app instantly, and I was in the TAS-pre line that afternoon.
Why did the two versions obviously built from the same codebase have two different sets of capabilities? Why was the website the more capable of the two this time? I have no clue. All I know is I never want to be a developer at a corporation where I'd have to be responsible for this flavor of trash.
When the app is prompting you to accept cookies
Used get my haircut at one of those "no appointment needed" haircut chains. Then they got an app, and every time I went it was "Why aren't you using the app? You need to use the app. Next time use the app. Download the app on your phone. It's gonna be an hour wait because you didn't use the app."
Now I just go to a local place.
I just cut my own hair.
But yeah, this trend is frustrating. When I get food from Jimmy Johns or a handful of other quick meal places, they bring up the app every single time. Yeah, I could get a free sandwich or whatever occasionally, but I really don't want yet another app on my device. If that choice resulted in a worse experience, I'd find a different service.
This is what CalDAV is for. We don’t need apps. We don’t need Calendly or Google Calendar or some BS.
As someone who needs to let other people schedule time on my calendar without wanting to give them every detail about my personal life I find Calendly to be incredibly useful. But I direct everyone to their website instead of the app, which I've never used.
You can break those up into private vs. public calendars
Great, now I have two calendars to manage.
I mean most calendar apps like the default in LineageOS & ikhal aggregate calendars & have a simple selection + coloring for the two calendars. It isn’t rocket surgery.
Okay, now how do I get that second calendar's availability to someone who isn't using CalDAV so we're not playing email ping-pong trying to find a time to meet?
Why assume everyone else has Google?
I don't. Most of the people I have to deal with actually use Exchange. Either way, the question stands: How do I share my availability across systems without giving them details about my other meetings?
Microsoft is the same as the corporate Google overlord. Both entirely evil to the core.
You either create new calendars or you share meetings ad-hoc thru ICS files manually. This probably depends on the type of work you do tho. This would not affect me since I don’t need folks randomly scheduling meetings with me for this to be a thing—instead the “Are you free X?” conversation is quick & painless.
Just yesterday, Mrs. Warp Core was trying to enroll with an online service. The self-service email confirmation link refused to function correctly in Firefox on a desktop operating system (Windows in this case). It worked flawlessly on Firefox+iOS. Said link also shuttled the user straight off to the phone app.
I'll add that nearly ever other aspect of their public facing web, including the online chat support, worked flawlessly everywhere I tried it. This all just reeked of hostile design.
When asked about why this is, I simply said:
Open source social media app: 30MB full size.
Privative social media app: 300MB install + 500 MG data full size 700MG
Go figure. I could have thousand of apps. If they were not packed with intrusive software to get all my data and to lock the company IP.
I use the Voyager Web App lol, only gotta store browser cache and cookies. Take that private social media!
I legitimately do not have enough space on my phone to install all the crappy bloatware of all the stores I go to. They quite literally ask the impossible of me.
I have yet to see an app that does something a website could not do...
Harvest data more efficiently for our corporate overlords :)
most apps are just containerized websites.
You know why?
Cause browsers do a lot to protect your data from invasive sniffing.
but if you containerize it in an app, you can remove all those pesky safety measures Which lets you turn a customer into a product by siphoning up all their data and information.
I work in a manufacturing environment. A few years ago they decided they needed a company social media app. They hired, or more likely were sold the idea by Salesforce and built this stupid ass website, then went on a fucking War campaign to get people to install the app on their phone.
They demanded. They begged. They removed functions of HR to the app exclusively. When we protested they simply said no, no room to negotiate, no give. You will use the app or you will not have access to certain information required to do your job. When they closed the plant one day and posted it on the app, they threatened to write up an entire shift that showed up to work anyway without knowing any better.
Because apparently, when you get up at 4 am the first thing you're supposed to do every day is check an app on your phone to see if you have work that day.
They used to just push out a robo call.
When we have committee meetings with HR they go something like this.
HR: how can we get you guys on the app Committee: how can we retrieve these functions from the app HR: you can't Committee: that's your answer.
There have been at least 6 versions of this meeting that I have been a part of.
Most of my coworkers are older than me. Few of them have fancy phones, generally the most basic phone you can get. A number of my coworkers are on parole or work release and have limited access to smart phones for one reason or another and literally have no access to the app.
I was chatting with one of the IT gals recently and apparently resistance to the app is pretty widespread. When I said "venture capital IT firm" she gave me a high five.
They want everyone using this thing and maybe 15% of the company has it. Then they switched to Workday.
It hasn't gone well.
I'm surprised you guys havent started the push of "If you are going to force us to have this app for essential day to day work, then you need to provide us with phones to put it on, because we can not be expected to devalue our personal devices with excess work related use"
I did mention at one of these meetings that we wouldn't give them space on our personal devices for free, it did not change their tune. The union has been hammering them on it during negotiations but I doubt they'll budge on that and we have bigger issues to deal with so they won't let it be a sticking point.
Someone should analyze the app and see what permissions it needs, cause it could be a much bigger sticking point than anyone realizes if its spying on your phone activities.
I did mention that when I connected to it via a VPN I could see my outgoing traffic spike suspiciously, that particular member of HR is no longer with the company and few of those remaining have the technical background to understand why I find that problematic.
Sadly around here, you're either on board with the direction the ship is sailing, or you're not on board. Those is us in bargained positions have been fine, and voice our frustrations freely. But management does not have the same freedom to do so.
Clarify the app is required by the company (hr) for your job duties as mentioned when it was stated every employee's responsibility to ensure the work site is open via a phone app. They'll be happy to confirm that.
Go see your master agreement about tools supplied by company. That will be in even passable contracts because it's usually an audit issue.
Ask company for tool as per contract. "This device here is not a work device and is neither secured nor managed by I.T." was what we said.
Ask your shop steward to ask the union to explain to the company that their HR is demanding the use of tools the company will not then provide, which is a concern under section 17p5b.1 "proper tools and training as provided during workday for onsite work required by employees"
If they're dicks you can try to hit them up for training on how to use the phone.
Teams is why we all have fancy pixel7 company-issued phones. TEAMS. And, since only one guy is on standby after-hours, the rest of them are shut off at 4:49 pm. So lame.
So we've been down that road. There are company computers available for that purpose, and training has been provided. It's a joke we tell each other around here that the only training we get is on the app.
For the handful of folks who are legally prohibited from having a smart phone, the state has requirements in place that they be notified of any schedule changes in advance, they're often the first to know.
The CEO frequently holds little meetings and fields questions, that's the next route.
I don't know what they were sold or why they're so insistent that we download the app, but their feverish insistence that we download it sure makes me suspicious.
Push Notifications, Mediacontrol with locker screen..
Websites can absolutely send push notifications.
Not sure anyone actually read the article, cuz yall are talkin about apps vs. web sites, and data collection. Two points which are briefly covered, but ultimately shrugged off in favor of the larger thesis:
It’s not simply the code delivery mechanism, and it’s not whether the data exchange is safe from prying eyes… It’s the fact that a digital UX has invaded every aspect of human interaction, including mourning.
Except that's just straight up not true. You can't escape it? You can't escape installing the Michaels app to get a $5 discount coupon?
I'm absolutely flabbergasted by what I'm reading here because I have no idea what the hell any of these people are doing in their lives where they're collecting this many apps out of necessity. This is entirely selection bias. They seem to be incapable of resisting the pull of trashy, useless apps, and insist the whole world is.
Nothing is stopping you from walking into any of these businesses, getting your purchase, paying with a card, and leaving.
Some stores require you to use the app for order pickup. Why they have the Menards app installed I have no clue. They've always been way behind with e-commerce, but their website works perfectly fine.
Sounds like a store to avoid like the plague.
I think you’re presenting a terribly myopic viewpoint. A lot of companies make the process of interacting with them so painful if you don’t use their app, that you feel hounded, harassed, and yeah, in some cases, forced to use their app. Do you really think your idea here hasn’t been considered by the author? Of course it has, because like most older people (in their 30s and 40s), that’s how it always used to be. The author is complaining that the way it is today, it can be difficult or borderline impossible to do the very thing you seem confused about.
5 USD is a lot.
Yes, as annoying as apps for everything is, very few are necessary, or even useful. I have had no problem going though life with minimal apps.
Nah
delete account...
Literally me
One big supermarket chain here has an app where you get a few cents bonus discount on already discounted items with the app coupon. The in-store announcement praises it as the first place of some insitute's supermarket app ranking. Even if that institute were legit, the ranking fair and the spot well-deserved, I always felt like that's a competition with no winners.
And the app is just a glorified website (Electron app).
Do most people even know what a phone app is??!
You know what else is overrun? Paywalls or other “requirements” where I need to signup and/or pay to access something that should be free.
Don’t get me started on those fullscreen ad interstitials that force me to watch an ad I’m not interested in before I can continue either.
Let’s face it, the Internet today fucking sucks and it’s partly to do with these so-called news outlets like the Atlantic.
I miss the days when barely anyone heard of the web. Sure, it wasn’t as feature rich, but then again, those features are overly abused in the name of capitalism anyway. It’s like those strip malls that have nothing but shitty restaurants, nail salons, and tax preparers. Gone are the days of fun stores like hobby shops, comic book stores, local mom & pop toy stores.
They just sucked the fun out of it all. 😡
I have to look for datasheets quite ofen and every damn company requires you to log into their shitty login system to get them.
It's exhausting
Amount of store apps on my phone: zero.
My wife has an app that is basically a card holder. Instead of pulling out a loyalty card, she pulls up the one app that has all of them scanned/copied. It's great.
Nice. I used to have a handful, and now I just don't bother with the loyalty program at all. My local grocery's program is mediocre at best (discount at a gas station I don't use) and isn't even required to get discounts, so I don't bother. And they don't even need an app, just a phone number, so I just refuse to tell them my number because I'm getting zero value from it.
Likewise for pretty much everything. The only one I actually use is Target, and that's because I get 5% off using their debit card, plus some random discounts through the app. I don't go there very often, but when I do, I'll generally time it when there are some good discounts to stack (usually it's for birthdays or school, and I have a month or so leeway in when I go).
So yeah, no store apps for me.
The first, if it's Kroger, don't have to use a phone #, or yours at least. But honestly I'd recommend not getting groceries there.
No, we avoid our local Kroger store (different name here), but when we go, I use my parents' number since they go there a lot and frequently use the fuel rewards. Our local grocery is supplied by Associated Food stores, which has the "Food Club" and related store brands.
The main options in my area (Utah) are:
Most of our spending goes to Costco, most of the rest goes to specialty shops, and we fill in the gaps with the local grocery chain. We spend something like $100/month at the grocery store, so it's not worth interacting with their loyalty program.
This piece has no real point. No hidden info, no resolution, no exposé, no call-to-arms really.
It's just "there are way too many apps", which we already knew.
What a weak article.
Yeah. The Atlantic kinda sucks.
It used to be a sort of second-rate New Yorker, except now The New Yorker is a second-rate New Yorker.
Harper's is still decent though. It's pretty much how it's been for years.
It’s behind a paywall for me. Good to hear I don’t have to bother with an archive link
This....is a BATTERY SUCKING LIE PEOPLE!! - Aldi ad
I actually often prefer using apps over websites, because my phone is quite slow and using a browser is often way slower than an app.
Particularly since some companies have made their websites intentionally shit so that you'd be encouraged to use the app instead. I noticed that with out local flavour of door dash, where the website got slower and clunkier and generally more shit right around the same time that the "Use our app!" banners got more obnoxious.
This doesn’t have to be the case but developers have been chasing bloated fads/frameworks for the over a decade instead of being reasonable with their technology. Résumé-driven development…? YAGNI.
The most ironic part...
.... an ad for an app for the article....
I recently switched to GrapheneOS and decided to avoid the Google Play store entirely, and honestly, the inconveniences have been pretty limited. The only bank I've had trouble with is Citi, everything else (I've tried several others) work fine through the browser. Likewise for most services I use, the web version works fine, though occasionally I'll need to use the "desktop" version.
Some services just don't work properly on the web, but most of the ones I used to use through an app work just fine. Give it a try, maybe together we can send a signal that apps should only exist when they provide value.
It still depends. I live in China and the internet here suckass. Every product, say taobao(Amazon), xianyu(eBay), Alipay(PayPal), WeChat(instant msg), banking, etc. that is crucial to your daily usage mandatories an application. The API is closed and the webapp has no functionality other than a banner with "go fuck our mobile app". The only way to bypass these privacy beast apps is to live in an isolated wood cabinet with self-sufficient agriculture.
Doesn't WeChat do more than instant messaging, though?
Yes, it steals your soul, spies on you for the cccp and sells your privacy to anyone with a buck fifty (except to you).
You mean the built-in browser with shitty nonconsistent API? Yeah it’s used widely. Some crazy dudes even put earthquake forecast on it.
How does it work?
Yes. From my experience, it is an everything app and you can pay for things instead of using alipay.
Wow, that sucks. I imagine government policy has a significant influence here...
I wish sites that do have PWAs would stop funneling people towards their app.
Especially Patreon, where patronages started using their app would be 30% more expensive for their users than patronages started through their website because of the Apple (and probably Google) tax. Patreon is aware of this tax but keeps advertising their fucking stupid app! You have a Progressive Web App that's works perfectly! Stop it! Get some help!
Twitter had some great outcomes when they rolled out their PWA: https://web.dev/case-studies/twitter
yet they kept pushing their native apps, probably because they can collect more data through them. The web is way more sandboxed than regular apps.
That's less an endorsement of PWAs and more a condemnation of how garbage the native app always was.
I have never encounteted a PWA that works better than a website OR an app - this from users actual usability viewpoint. They are a cancer, that sits right in between the worst of both worlds.
I like apps for stores I frequent. Most people do.
Having 150+ is a personal problem.
This is partly corporate greed and partly a failure of the Web. A website should be all you need. You shouldn't need a separate app for every little thing.
It's not a failure of the web, it's a failure of corporations to accept their place as just a tab in my browser. It's also easier to track users, exploit vulnerabilities, etc. from within a mobile app.
Also, push notifications. Most things could be done from a browser, but corpos have to have their push notifications.
It doesn't matter if you're the guy who turns every notification off and manages all those... 9/10 people won't.
If all I'm doing is looking at your catalog, it should work in a mobile browser. That way if I - a Tarheel - find myself in the midwest, I can go "does Menards have 1/4-20 hanger bolts?"
I'll install an app if it runs mainly on my phone, like a media player or a calculator or maybe even a file viewer. Mobile games...that ship has sunk, frankly.
But I mean, you gotta install an app if you want that functionality. The key thing is if you do or do not have full control of that app. While you allow it freedom in your 🤳📱, is it doing stuff you are not aware of that you don't want it to do. Like I found an app to do a sound sweep. Great, but will it go thru my contacts while I'm at work? It is going to learn about who I work with because it has blue tooth access. That's just nefarious shitty business that should be illegal. Either tell me what it does or don't do anything other than want you say it does. I also write my own apps for photography stuff and I wouldn't want to have to go ask a judge if I can please use my phone for specific programming I want to do.
https://xkcd.com/1367/
out of spite I don't use my phone to "play" on.
Isn’t that the promise of App Clips? iOS and Android both allow you to run a mini app temporarily for shopping and not cluttering your system.
What they mean is iPhones have pitiful storage levels for the huge amount of money they cost
This is why everything apps are so popular in many parts of the world. Using a mini-app from the internet running within another app is far preferable to downloading a whole app you may never need to use again. The way they do it in China is so seamless even if you've never visited the business before. There's never any special account creation or entering of payment information.
Obviously it's pretty terrible in terms of user privacy since the everything app has basically unchecked access to all of your personal information and habits, but the convenience is incredible and feels decades ahead of how apps work in the US.
What's wrong with a web browser? I know it's not as seamless, but it's far less limiting and literally any company can create a site, regardless of their size. There's systems like Google Pay that avoid you having to enter your credit card details on every site.
Even the best websites don't feel as smooth as native UI elements, and somehow browser compatibility is still a very common issue. Signing in with Google and using gpay for checkout is kind of close, but each website has different design elements complicating the experience while giving up the same amount of your personal data as if using an everything app.
Among other things said, you lose access to push notifications / scheduling which a lot of apps are reliant on.
You could have those come in an email instead, but now it's not personalized to the app or notification type, and if you're like me, I actually disable alerts on my gmail because most of the things in there aren't important and it was too disruptive.
Web apps have supported push notifications for a long time now. I think even Safari supports them now.
Those aren't the same, they require the browser to be open.I don't know if that means it works with a tab in the background though if the browser is open but you aren't on their page, but it'd make sense if it did work that way.Edit: Further looking at this, maybe that's just on Android. They might work on iOS as expected but only if you add the web app to your home screen as an app, and that's only in 2023 when iOS 16.4 was released.
Edit: Okay it looks like it should work on Android too, I saw some older stuff. I'm seeing some complaints about delivery times though not being immediate.
It usually works well on Android. I use it on a few forums.
That's the same with every Android app, though. When you're not actively using your phone, some apps are put to sleep, which also stops their notifications. Very common on Samsung phones especially. You can usually add an app (or installed PWA) to a list of apps that you don't want to sleep.
How is that better than a web browser? Web browsers were supposed to be the "everything app".
Web browsers don't integrate to a single account and payment system, nor do they preemptively load entire websites before you start browsing. So you're always waiting for actions to complete or for images to load which feels slower. Mobile websites also tend to be very bloated slowing things down further than if the same functions were done natively in an app. There's also no consistency between websites so you never know when something will/won't work nor how far away you are from checkout. And then to top it all off there's browser compatibility, which is typically pretty poor for anything that isn't Chrome/Safari.
If a web browsers could really do the same thing all these companies wouldn't feel the need to make their own device specific apps.
Us lemmings will never be comfortable with this level of centralisation.
Nobody makes your download any damn app. You can just not do it.
I remember getting a boarding pass from an airline that was only offered in their app or printed at the airport, no email/download image/PDF option. I didn't have to install their app, but I would have had to waste time at the airport otherwise. I removed it when I was done and left it a negative review.
Couldn't even get into a baseball game recently without having to download an app
I swear that has to be illegal
Should be. I bought tickets on the official website but they would not accept receipt or even verification from that website. Needed a qr code and only way to get it was with app. Had to step out of line, download the app, remember login I had generated from website, login and pull up the qr codes for my tickets.
Tell that to 2FA apps for banks and enterprise security systems.
My bank demands sms.
I want my own authentication app so I can access my account even if my phone is missing/dead
Bro wtf. I can’t pay for a parking spot without a feckin app.
In many cases this means avoiding the service altogether. So long as you are good with that, then yeah by all means, don't download it or use the service. I don't use plenty of services because I don't want their app. Instagram is one of those.