Keeponstalin

@Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
41 Post – 493 Comments
Joined 11 months ago

Say no to authoritarianism, say yes to socialism

There is no hope for a better future for Palestinian children when living under the violence of Apartheid

In January, Israel accused a handful of UNRWA staff of collaborating with Hamas militants as part of its years-long campaign against the agency. But Israel has refused to provide evidence for these claims, and subsequent investigations by an independent UN panel, foreign experts in multiple countries (including the EU’s humanitarian chief), and journalists across many outlets have found that there is no evidence supporting the accusations.

Of humanitarian groups, UNRWA has borne the brunt of Israel’s horrific extermination campaign. According to agency Chief Philippe Lazzarini, Israeli forces have killed 193 UNRWA workers in Gaza since October and massacred 250 aid workers in total so far. Israeli forces have continually targeted UNRWA facilities, often in refugee camps, damaging or destroying 190 UNRWA facilities in Gaza, or about half of the agency’s facilities in the region.

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This is the situation Israel has been aiming for

These attacks have led UNRWA to declare that Gaza is currently the most dangerous place on Earth for aid workers, making it extremely difficult for groups to carry out the work necessary to stem the famine and various epidemics raging across Gaza — that is, when Israel even allows the materials needed for such efforts to cross the border.

They really care about (terrorizing) civilians

First responders and medical care were readily available after 9/11, thankfully.

In Gaza, Israel has crippled the medical system by attacking the vast majority of hospitals and much international aid. Additionally, the bombings and Rafah invasion haven't stopped.

Those weren't ignored, they were addressed with the last link. Palestinians are not responsible for the Jewish exodus. Your argument is trying justify the Israeli Apartheid and Genocide by conflating Palestinians with all Arabs/Muslims and conflating all Jewish people with Israel.

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal such as deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.

Forced expulsion of Palestinians has been central to Zionism since the 1880's

There are a lot of factors of the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world, but your conflating of the two as justification or minimization of the Nakba doesn't work; unless you somehow think all Arabs or Muslims are the same. But it's pretty clear your racist towards Palestinians or Arabs or Muslims when your argument boils down to 'they are violent primitives and deserve to die,' just going straight to dehumanization and ignoring all material conditions of Apartheid

Iraqi-born Israeli historian Avi Shlaim, speaking of the wave of Iraqi Jewish migration to Israel, concludes that, even though Iraqi Jews were "victims of the Israeli-Arab conflict", Iraqi Jews aren't refugees, saying "nobody expelled us from Iraq, nobody told us that we were unwanted." He restated that case in a review of Martin Gilbert's book, In Ishmael's House.

Yehuda Shenhav has criticized the analogy between Jewish emigration from Arab countries and the Palestinian exodus. He also says "The unfounded, immoral analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi immigrants needlessly embroils members of these two groups in a dispute, degrades the dignity of many Mizrahi Jews, and harms prospects for genuine Jewish-Arab reconciliation." He has stated that "the campaign's proponents hope their efforts will prevent conferral of what is called a 'right of return' on Palestinians, and reduce the size of the compensation Israel is liable to be asked to pay in exchange for Palestinian property appropriated by the state guardian of 'lost' assets."

Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath has rejected the comparison, arguing that while there is a superficial similarity, the ideological and historical significance of the two population movements are entirely different. Porath points out that the immigration of Jews from Arab countries to Israel, expelled or not, was the "fulfilment of a national dream". He also argues that the achievement of this Zionist goal was only made possible through the endeavors of the Jewish Agency's agents, teachers, and instructors working in various Arab countries since the 1930s. Porath contrasts this with the Palestinian Arabs' flight of 1948 as completely different. He describes the outcome of the Palestinian's flight as an "unwanted national calamity" that was accompanied by "unending personal tragedies". The result was "the collapse of the Palestinian community, the fragmentation of a people, and the loss of a country that had in the past been mostly Arabic-speaking and Islamic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

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I added the link, those quotes show why most historians consider the comparison of the Nakba and Jewish exodus from the Muslim world to be a false equivalence. While there were certainly pogroms, the vast majority of Jewish immigrants were able to sell their possessions and willingly move. This is in contrast to the Nakba, where all 800,000 Palestinians were forcibly removed by a deliberate ethnic cleansing campaign. Whether you recognize it or not, when you bring up the exodus as a reaction to the Nakba with the conclusion that both sides are bad, the point of that argument is a justification for the Nakba.

If you're Iraqi, how do you not see that all the different Arab countries have their own interests? While there was some semblance of pan-Islamism and pan-arabism during the British Mandate, it ultimately was a failed project. Jordan, Egypt, and other countries were not operating on the 'behalf of Palestine,' and their actions are not the fault of Palestinians.

You bring up the 1913 Pogroms and the 1930s Riots in Palestine in reaction to the Nakba too, as if they were fueled by Antisemitism instead of anti-settler-colonialism. Even the commissions done by the British disagree with that.

The Concept of forcible transfer the native Palestinians population was central to Zionism since the 1880s when Palestine was chosen as the location. During the British Mandate, around a 100,000 Palestinians were forcibly displaced by land purchases (unlike previous land purchases, where peasants would normally continue working and living on the land). Ben-Gurion used Partition as a tactic to dissuade the British from considering a Bi-National Secular State, and instead create a causi-belli for the beginning of a Jewish ethnostate within Palestine. The Nakba, or Plan Dalet, was deliberately planned for over a year. That ethnic cleansing campaign is directly responsible for the Palestinian Occupied Territories of East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza. The 1967 war was a deliberate tactic for Israel to take control of those areas and begin the never ending occupation, once those policies were practiced on the Palestinian population that remained in the Green Line after the Nakba.

So what are you trying to agrue? Because none of that is false.

The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948

Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.

1967 war: Haaretz, Forward

Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations practiced in the occupied territories after 1967

The aid trucks need to be allowed into Gaza. Israel needs to be stopped by international pressure. This is genocide.

On top of the blockade, Israeli forces recently lifted a ban on commercial food deliveries entering Gaza, meaning that commercial deliveries from Israel and the West Bank are now squeezing out aid trucks attempting to enter border crossings.

“By the time a famine is declared, it will be too late. When hunger claims many more lives, nobody will be able to deny the horrifying impact of Israel’s deliberate, illegal and cruel obstruction of aid,” said Sally Abi Khalil, Middle East and North Africa director for Oxfam, in a statement. “Obstructing tonnes of food for a malnourished population while waving through caffeine-laced drinks and chocolate is sickening.”

I had no clue about Israel utilizing commercial deliveries to further obstruct humanitarian aid from entering Gaza before this article

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The coveting of water of the occupied territories is nothing new, true. But unlike most sieges, this is done by an occupying power that has had total control over the food, water, electricity, borders, movement, aid, imports, and exports of the occupied territories for decades.

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This is the only thing I could find

https://www.jewishpress.com/news/eye-on-palestine/gaza/poll-83-of-israelis-support-voluntary-emigration-from-gaza/2023/12/24/

The Direct Polls survey that was published last Thursday (Direct Polls: Gantz and Bibi Neck-and-Neck, Smotrich Beats the Threshold) included the question: “To what degree do you support encouraging the voluntary emigration of Gaza Strip residents?”

The response of 1,487 adults (18+) who are a representative sample of the general population in Israel, with a statistical sampling error of ± 3.9%, at a 95% probability, was overwhelmingly in favor of the idea.

68% support it strongly

15% are quite supportive

8% don’t really support it

9% don’t support it at all

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For being Palestinian

A senior official told The New Arab that "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu managed to obtain American approval for a military operation in Rafah, in exchange for [Israel] refraining from carrying out a wide military operation against Iran in response to its recent attack."

This is insane, goes to show how much power the US has over Israeli military operations. US approval for genocide, what a strong finger wag.

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You can compare them in that they are both genocides. The Holocaust was certainly a genocide done on a much larger scale, especially near the end of Nazi Germany. But there isn't a certain death count needed to count as a genocide, we have multiple international definitions to determine and (ideally) prevent them.

About five times as many, of course it's much lower to people who consider Palestinians subhuman animals

Al Jazeera has more detailed eye witnesses statement's and video about the mass grave found. Independent investigations are being called for but this is breaking news so that could take some time

Also reported on Common Dreams and Middle East Eye.

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“The IDF are systematically targeting healthcare facilities, healthcare personnel and really dismantling the whole healthcare system,” he said.

“It’s not just about targeting the buildings, it’s about systematically destroying the infrastructure of the hospitals. Destroying the oxygen tanks at the al-Shifa hospital, deliberately destroying the CT scanners and making it much more difficult to rebuild that infrastructure. If it was just targeting Hamas militants, why are they deliberately destroying the infrastructure of these institutions?”

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Further, the report found that Israeli forces had, themselves, added to the civilian death toll of October 7, killing at least 14 Israelis as part of the so-called Hannibal Directive that instructs Israeli soldiers to undertake any actions necessary to avoid capture by enemy forces, up to and potentially including the killing of fellow Israeli soldiers.

In this case, Israeli forces killed 13 Israeli civilian hostages who were being held in a house in southern Israel via tank fire on October 7, the report found, while an Israeli helicopter killed one Israeli civilian while she was being abducted.

14 Israeli Civilians confirmed dead from friendly fire

Here's a history of ceasefire proposals and rejections

Since Palestinians have no human or civil rights under Israeli Occupation, they can be detained and convicted with no to little evidence. Subject only to military courts they have no fair trial and it's quite normal to coerce (false) confessions. This includes children.

Military Courts - B'TSelem

Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests - Amnesty International

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What? This is a continuation of a long-standing Israeli policy

The deprivation of water and the destruction of water and sanitation infrastructure have long been part of the Israeli effort, in both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, “to make the daily process of living, and dignified living, more difficult for the civilian population,” as a UN Fact Finding Mission stated in 2009.

Past Israeli military operations in both of these occupied territories have also led to the destruction of water resources. And for decades, Israel has used water grabbing to dispossess Palestinians of their land and ways of life — impeding Palestinian agriculture in the West Bank and for Palestinians inside Israel. But Israel’s weaponization of water within the framework of its current offensive on the Gaza Strip is on an entirely different scale, with the capacity to cause an unparalleled public health crisis and irreversible ecological damage.

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There are certainly religious aspects, but this is first and foremost a settler colonialist land grab Totally agree with the rest of your statement tho

“…the takeover of the West Bank in particular, with its ancient biblical sights, was a Zionist aim even before 1948 and it fitted the logic of the Zionist project as a whole. This logic can be summarized as the wish to take over as much of Palestine as possible with as few Palestinians as possible… After the occupation, the new ruler confined the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in an impossible limbo: they were neither refugees nor citizens—they were, and still are, citizenless inhabitants. They were inmates, and in many respects still are, of a huge prison in which they have no civil, and human rights and no impact on their future. The world tolerates this situation because Israel claims —and the claim was never challenged until recently—that the situation is temporary…Israel is still incarcerating a third generation of Palestinians…and depicting these mega-prisons as temporary…”

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The Open Letter in question

We call for an immediate and unconditional cessation of Israeli violence against Palestinians. We call for an end to the support provided by global powers to Israel and its military; especially the United States, which now provides Israel $3.8 billion annually without condition. We ask all people of conscience to exercise their agency to help dismantle the apartheid regime of our time. We ask governments that are enabling this crime against humanity to apply sanctions, to mobilize levers of international accountability, and to cut trade, economic and cultural relations. We call on activists, and especially our peers in the arts, to exercise their agency within their institutions and localities to support the Palestinian struggle for decolonization to the best of their ability. Israeli apartheid is sustained by international complicity, it is our collective responsibility to redress this harm.

I upvote for visibility. The more awareness, the more pressure from public opinion.

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What a terrible policy

Asylum seekers should always be given safe harbor

The real issues of immigration are solved with legalization, not criminalization

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You think it's idiotic to protest against a genocide?

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You mean the water Israel has controlled, destroyed and extorted since they started the occupation in 1967? They've also irreparably contaminated ground water, bombed water infrastructure, and shut off the pipes from access to the water they take from Gaza.

Seems like Israel only apologizes publicly for its massacres when there is enough international outrage, otherwise they brag about it

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Then I suggest you learn more about the subject from some of the new historians that have researched it far more than anyone on a message board

Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.

Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter

The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. Hamas wants an end to Israel as an Apartheid State, not an extermination of all Israelis. Under Ahmed Yassin in the 1990's, truces were offered in exchange for Israeli to withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank to the 1967 borders. The 2017 Revised charter explicitly accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter.

The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he's not Palestinian.

History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012

No I don't support Hamas as a ruling party, I want Palestinians to be able to have free fair elections.

Even if all the males 14+ are automatically considered combatants, the civilian death ratio would be 70% minimum (being women and children). That's on top of Israel creating a famine, extreme water crisis, destroying the majority of medical infrastructure, and extremely limiting foreign aid (to a fraction of what was needed prior to Oct 7).

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The Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor rights group said on Saturday that it documented “a series of crimes systematically committed by Israeli forces” in the area of the hospital in Gaza City over the past week.

"Initially assuring us no harm would come, they proceeded to kill at least 300 civilians. We were mere toys in their hands," he said.

Over 500 individuals, including women and children, were also detained, he told MEE.

Men were stripped, beaten, blindfolded and handcuffed. We were herded into the courtyard and later subjected to interrogation,” he added.

Soldiers asked him whether he had encountered any Palestinian fighters. Following 45 minutes of interrogation per person, they were left naked outside the hospital, and received nothing for iftar except a small bottle of water.

"They stripped me and my brother down to our underwear and moved my wife and children downstairs after taking away her phone. My children were begging the soldiers to take me with them but they refused. They pushed my daughter to the floor and told her to go with her mother.”

"They took some of the men to another room and then we heard gunshots. The soldiers returned from that room without the men they took with them.”

"If anyone dared to request water, they were shot in the legs. We faced extreme hunger for two days.”

He added that he witnessed an eight-year-old boy being shot in the leg by an Israeli soldier after requesting to see his family.

The Israeli military has announced that it has killed and detained dozens of Palestinians during the ongoing raid. It claimed that those killed were fighters, and those arrested were suspected members of Hamas. The army, however, did not provide any evidence to support those claims.

War on Gaza: How Israeli soldiers assaulted Palestinians during the raid on al-Shifa hospital

Hamas wouldn't exist if there was no occupation

British Mandate Period:

Antisemitism in Islam

Antisemitism in the Arab World

The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948

Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928

1929 Riots from Forward and 972Mag

Shaw Commission

Peel Commission Report and Memorandum of the Arab Higher Committee 1937

1936-1939 Revolt from JVL, Britannica, MEE

Irgun and Lehi activity

What Hitler and the Grand Mufti Really Said: Time, Haaretz, WaPo

Yosef Weitz' unofficial Transfer Committee and the JNF. Which has dispossessed Palestinians to present day. 972mag, MEE, Haaretz

1948 to 1967:

Plan Dalet and Declassified Massacres

Additional context of what was detailed in Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948)

Arab League advocating for unified state 1948

1967 war Declassified

Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations practiced in the occupied territories after 1967

How the US became the ally of Israel

UK influence

Occupation:

Occupation and 50 years of dispossession

1st Intifada AJ, PBS, Haaretz

Oslo Accords MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ

2nd Intifada AJ, Haaretz

Gaza Blockade is Occupation

Dahiya Doctrine

Arab Israelis are not equal including Education (2001 report)

Palestinian Prisoners in Israel and Military Court

Child abuse of Palestinian prisoners

Apartheid

Human Shields including Children (2013 Report)

Settler Violence, Torture and Abuse in Interrogations, No freedom of movement, and also Water control

Gaza March for Return Protest

Palestinians lack civil rights

Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017

History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012

AWRAD Gaza War Poll

PCPSR Public Opinion Poll Dec 2023

History of peace process

One State Solution, Foreign Affairs archived here

10 Myths of Israel

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Get this antisemitic bullshit out of here. The state of Israel doesn't even represent all Israelis, and not remotely all Jewish people. There have been prominent Jewish people that have been anti-zionist all the way back since the 1920s to present day

“I’ve directed my team to share intelligence and deploy additional experts from across the United States government to consult with and advise the Israeli counterparts on hostage recovery efforts,” said President Joe Biden three days after the Hamas attack.

Several weeks before they issued experts to help with hostage recovery efforts, allegedly. Which would be fair if that was the case, but there is no valid reason to assist Israel with their bombing campaign on Palestinians and gaza infrastructure.

I agree Biden is a terrible choice. We absolutely deserve other choices in a primary. But in a national vote between Trump and Biden, I'll have no choice but to vote Biden. What a pathetic excuse for a democracy we have. I guess it's kinda always been this way looking back at American history, it's just so much more blatant now