lltnskyc

That's quite a reasonable one, except

they were unable to discuss

because AFAICS nobody tried to discuss anything with them, so for me it wouldn't be an easy task to grade their discussion skills. On the other hand I suppose you have a point that their message doesn't invite a discussion either..

Have a good one.

Thanks, you too.

On another note, are you Ukrainian by any chance brother?

I am. Although nobody believes that because I don't praise our glorious Lord and Savior Zelensky.

I really feel for you and I can tell that the draft is reality and not a joke for you if that’s the case.

Thanks man, really appreciate it! It's rare to hear that on this instance :(

I hope I wasn’t rude

You are perfectly reasonable, I wish the rest of the instance could participate in a civil discussion instead of name-calling and ad hominem.

stay safe

Thanks again man.
I am safe, as I've left Ukraine before the war started, so unless other countries start cooperating with Zelensky's regime and kidnap people from the streets [and send them to Ukraine to die] there is no threat for me.
Unfortunately it's not true for some of my family members, my friends, and millions of Ukrainians :(

But what is disinformation in my comment?
What is it with lots of people here on lemmy that label everything that doesn't suit their worldview as misinformation/disinformation/propaganda?
That and name-calling does not change facts, you know, it just shows to other people that you can't argue your position..

Before you block me as well (I suppose you will want to do that, as I similarly express unpopular opinions here), could you please answer just one question that intrigues me?

Why is the USA left (I hope it's not controversial to say that majority on lemmy are left-leaning?), that clearly considers itself to be more intelligent than the right (the right are all conspiracy theorists, all believe in flat earth, don't trust the science/vaccines, vote for Trump because they are dumb, etc.), is so incapable of having a civilized discussion and exchange of opinions, confuses facts and opinions, and instead prefers to silently downvote everything they don't agree with and block people with different opinions?

But downvotes aren’t the same as admins banning you based purely on difference of opinion, let’s not conflate the two. This thread is about the latter, while downvotes are just another form of free speech.

But I don't complain about it and don't conflate the two! I totally agree that downvotes is just another form of free speech.
That was just ironic "you agreed with me that censuring people is wrong and now people are going to show you how wrong you are" kind of thing, I have nothing against downvotes (I mean I'd prefer people try to engage in a civil conversation instead of that, but I'm definitely not forcing anybody to do anything, downvote away) :)

Sure, and not just one!
Here is a collection of footage of people being kidnapped from the streets, put into vans and sent to die: https://uadraftmuseum.ch/
Here is a recent news (in ukr, so please use a translator) that now they will be breaking into people's homes to do the same: https://focus.ua/voennye-novosti/650441-mobilizaciya-po-novomu-voennaya-policiya-smozhet-zahodit-v-zhile-i-voznagrazhdat-za-pomoshch
And a few more links about how people are trying to survive this hell, and how people are dying trying to escape:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ukraine-urgently-needs-soldiers-but-some-men-are-desperate-not-to-fight/ar-BB1naQUE
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-recruitment/32310040.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-ukrainian-men-trying-to-avoid-conscription

Your views are at odds with reality.

And surely you are able to point out what exactly am I wrong about? :)

Just today, news, this time directly from a Ukrainian source (so please use a google translate or something): https://focus.ua/uk/voennye-novosti/650441-mobilizaciya-po-novomu-viyskova-policiya-zmozhe-zahoditi-v-zhitlo-ta-vinagorodzhuvati-za-dopomogu

Now, we are not just going to be kidnapped on the streets, they are going to break into our homes, and kidnap us in front of our families and forcibly send to die.

But you still support it, after all it's not some people worth worrying about, it's just Ukrainians, we can be slaughtered till the last person in the name of geopolitics, right?

there’s never been any Ukrainian held election

so, there's been Chinese election allowing for the secession of this territory?

the hypocrisy is mind-blowing :)

ancap think tank

So basically you have no arguments against what is said there, so you just attack the source instead of disproving anything that is written there? Very cool :)

online “museum”

But what sources would you expect? The mainstream media is not going to report every case, because it shows completely opposite view to the current propaganda that says that Ukraine is a democratic country where people want to fight and die for their glorious master leader Zelensky...
Here is a link for you to msn, is it a more reliable source which you would trust?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ukraine-urgently-needs-soldiers-but-some-men-are-desperate-not-to-fight/ar-BB1naQUE
Some quotes from there:

When you see people in uniform, you panic. You start thinking someone will mobilize you now against your will
You worry that someone will throw you into the bus one day, take you somewhere, turn off your phone, and you will be cut off from the world"
It shows a physical fight between recruitment officers and civilians

Another article:
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-recruitment/32310040.html

Another article:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065

Telegram threads give tip-offs on where drafting officers are patrolling. There are chats for different regions and cities across the country, sometimes with more than 100,000 members each. there are reports of some being taken away on the spot, without a chance to return home.
But there are claims of officers using harsh or intimidating tactics. There are also reports of conscripts finding themselves on the front line with just a month of training.

Another article, also with a video of "man being dragged into van by conscription officers in Odesa":
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-ukrainian-men-trying-to-avoid-conscription

How many more sources you need to believe that Ukrainian government is kidnapping people on the streets, forcefully puts them into vans and then sends them to die? People who don't want to fight for Zelensky, people who just one to live. They want to keep the one thing that is most precious to each human - their life. And our government, with support from your government, and people like you, is murdering thousands of us. Do you really support this? Would you still support it if it wasn't random people you don't know, but if it was your family, your father, your son if have one, your friends that were kidnapped and sent to die?

That’s not freedom.

Have you read what I've written? Let me quote myself again:

Ukrainians who failed to escape Ukraine don’t really have a choice other live in fear that today might be the day they (or their family) get kidnapped and sent to the army, or try to escape and get caught by “heroes” of the border patrol who carefully watch that nobody escape the meat grinder (unless they give them a hefty bribe).

You're absolutely right about Russia having problems you've described, I've never said Russia is a good place to live (except when comparing to current situation in Ukraine) but in Ukraine people are getting kidnapped and sent to die! Literally! How can you even compare those two things?
If you don't like what happens in Russia - you can just leave. You are not a hostage! If you like Ukraine so much - go buy a ticket and join army as a volunteer.
If you don't like what happens in Ukraine - you can't do anything! You are not allowed to leave country, don't even dream about going to Russia! You can't even come close to a border! You are treated worse than a street dog! You can only try to hide from the government until it gets overthrown or until somehow the war ends.

Hopefully Hungary will stay strong and continue to support Ukrainians, even if it is alone in doing so <3

What bridge?

Reddit felt like a massive echo chamber

Lemmy is a way bigger echo chamber, it's as "no matter who vote blue" as it gets tbh (with very few exceptions).

Where people aren’t pushed away for respectfully voicing their opinion. Is Lemmy the answer?

Nope, it's the opposite if anything.
I'm constantly getting attacked with ad hominem (my favourite one - getting called a fascist) here despite voicing opinions as respectfully as it gets, as well as providing sources for my claims whenever people ask.
Gotta have really thick skin if you are not left-leaning, but if you are - you will feel right at home :)

Telling people what's actually happening in my country, and then getting called a fascist because it doesn't align with what their very-independent and very-honest and totally-not-biased media tell them. That could have been fun if it wasn't really sad :(

So the second option it is.

When is USA planning to send military aid to China to help it reclaim Taiwan that is rightfully theirs?

surely you are able to provide reputable sources

Sure :)

what makes the Ukrainian government illegitimate

This articles describes exactly my thoughts on this opinion: https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/the-end-of-zelenskys-legitimacy/

when it has kidnapped its own civilians and forced them to fight

Every day!
It doesn't get shown in the western media, but if you subscribe to the local channels of big cities (Kiev/Odessa/Lviv/Kharkiv/etc.), or basically any sources actually covering what's happening in Ukraine (in Ukrainian or Russian language), you will see videos of TCK (I dunno how to properly translate it, but that's the government-military organization that does the kidnapping) posted almost every single day, people are caught on the streets and forcibly put into vans. Sometimes people manage to escape them, sometimes the crowd helps fight TCK off, but more often then not they get successfully kidnapped. Some villages got almost every men kidnapped that way (because previously they were scared to operate in big cities and preferred villages, but now they don't give a shit about anything).
A very small portion of that is documented here: https://uadraftmuseum.ch/

When the Taiwanese people democratically declare they want to become part of China.

Wait what? So if people of a region that is internationally recognized as part of another country declare that they want to be part of another country, you are okay with that?
Then how is Donbass and Crimea doing the same is not okay?
Why is it "rightfully theirs" in case of Ukraine, but not "rightfully theirs" in case of China? What the fuck?

Oh, gotcha!

Sorry for being confusing, by "posting" I actually meant "commenting", I don't really post anything.
You can see all comments in my profile, but I guess due to way lemmy works you can only see all of them if you open it through my home instance? idk, but here's the link: https://monero.town/u/lltnskyc

You naming it conscription instead of kidnapping doesn't mean it's not kidnapping. Talk about calling spade a spade..

Ukraine will continue to fight for what is rightfully theirs

Out of curiosity, how do you define rightfully in that case?
If that "rightfully" is defined as "they owned it before", how long ago does it go? 5 years? 10 years? 100 years? Or just for as long as it is convenient for you? Should Mongolia try to reconquer all the territories it once owned?
Or is it "rightfully" as in "recognized in international law"/"defined by UN" or something like that? In that case, you surely agree that China should fight for Taiwan, right?

Pretty sure Russia “kidnaps” (conscripts) a hell of alot more than Ukraine does.

Russia does have conscription which is totally immoral and wrong as well, but it does not kidnap people into army (or at least does not do that on a scale nearly close to Ukraine).
Ukraine literally does kidnapping (catching people on the streets, running after them and using force to put them into vans/etc. Some people manage to self-defend with pepper-sprays, or outrun them or sometimes got protected by a crowd of people, but those are the lucky ones).
Source: uadraftmuseum.ch, and if you search comments on this post you'll see another guy posting a link to nytimes (a western media!) talking about the same, but it is paywalled and I cannot read it so I won't repost it.

Russia also beating Ukrainians in the occupied territories

Yes. Note how I never said that Russia are the good guys. There are no good guys, everybody commits warcrimes (Including Ukraine, USA, and all the other countries that are currently considered good guys by the mainstream media). I am just saying that people in Russia (including Ukrainians on occupied territories) have unimaginably more freedom than people in Ukraine.

forcing them to become Russian citizens

I included a source for my claims, surely you have a source for your claims? There was another article here on lemmy about nuclear power plant where "everything is going terrible right now, because only the intelligent Ukrainians know how to operate it, and they are not allowed to work on it because they have refused to accept Russian citizenship". So which one is it, are they forced to become Russian citizens or not?

either forcing them into fighting against their own country or ship them off to some labour camp never too be seen again.

Which is so much different from what Ukraine does, right? Or in case of Ukraine it's all alright because the west supports it, but in case of Russia it's barbaric?
Btw, any source on "ship them off to some labour camp never too be seen"? I suspect you might have confused history of USSR with current events.

Do you think they are “free” to leave Russia?

Literally, yes. Some of my family (but unfortunately not everyone, because lately escaping this west-supported mass-prison is almost impossible) managed to escape Ukraine by going to occupied territories, and from there to Russia itself, and then they just left Russia and went wherever they wanted. (Obviously nobody here would believe that I'm actually Ukrainian, because as we all know all Ukrainians are happy to die in the meat grinder while screaming "for the glory of Zelensky, my only master", and those who want their family and friends to stay alive are Russian bots, so you can replace "my family" with "many Ukrainians" if that will make it easier for you to read).
Do you have any sources claiming otherwise?

This is correct from the viewpoint of Ukraine (and its allies)!
But according to Russia and Russian laws - it is Russian territory now.
According to the facts, it is fully controlled by Russia for 2 years now (are you arguing with that?). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_annexation_of_Donetsk,_Kherson,_Luhansk_and_Zaporizhzhia_oblasts_of_Ukraine
Note that we are not talking about whether it is legal by international law, whether it's recognized by the rest of the world, etc. The fact is according to Russia it is Russian territory, and the fact is that it has full control over it. And so we are getting back to my question

you would rather believe a conspiracy theory (or what else would you call that?) that Russia is repeatedly (!) attacking itself, it’s own territory that it controls for more than 2 years, than that Ukraine is attacking the territory of its enemy?

Would you like to explain what's exactly dumb about that?

You cannot tell the difference between Russia and the Free World? What is wrong with you man?

Is it Russia that kidnaps Ukrainians on the streets and sends them to die? The last time I checked it was Zelensky's regime.

The article does not say otherwise.
The article says

The remote-controlled nature of the drones that have attacked the plant means that it is not possible to determine who launched them

So you would rather believe a conspiracy theory (or what else would you call that?) that Russia is repeatedly (!) attacking itself, it's own territory that it controls for more than 2 years, than that Ukraine is attacking the territory of its enemy?

Ah, so justification is - they do something bad, so we will do something bad as well (not towards them tho).
Got it

Not like that!
Others (preferably Ukrainians, we don't consider them humans anyway, right?) should go and destroy Russia instead of me, I should be lying comfortably on my bed commenting how we should destroy Russia!
/s

I'm used to it, thankfully downvotes don't change anything :)

Russia.

Now, I answered your question, would you please be so kind to answer mine now, which is also quite simple?

If there are two men, man A is simply operating a meat grinder while man B kidnaps people from the streets (soon he will start breaking into people's homes as well), forcefully pushes them into the meat grinder, and watches to make sure they can't get out of it, he also makes sure nobody leaves the city so that he can continue his game, who do you blame more for deaths of people in the meat grinder?

WDYM?

The man who operates the meat grinder? The man who started the business of shoving people into a grinder???

Those are two different people though.

I did not read that "Ukraine did this attack", as a matter of fact article does not say who attacked it, because they "lack evidence".
It's just the only way I see how one can believe that the attack was done by Russia, is a conspiracy theory that Russia attacks its own territory.
On the other one, Ukraine attacking it is perfectly logical because they are attacking a territory of their enemy that they do not control.

What country are you from?

I'm from Ukraine. You can find a little bit more info about that in my other comments - but TLDR is that thankfully I have left it before the war started, some of my family managed to escape it (illegally of course, going through the occupied territories and then through Russia, it's a mass prison now for most of the men there), but some are still trapped and trying to not get caught by the government, because if they do (and don't have enough money for a bribe), they will be sent to the front lines and probably die.

I don’t see any fascist comments in your profile

Cool, thanks, glad to see someone here with whom it's possible to have a conversation without getting called a fascist :)

but you do seem extremely pissed off that Ukraine is defending itself from Russia.

I am not pissed about Ukraine defending itself from Russia. I absolutely support the right of everyone, both people and nations, to defend themselves against an invader! I also never said that Russia are the good guys (and yet, I'm getting labeled Russian propagandist/bot as well, just saying that Russia invaded Ukraine and there is a war is a punishable offense in Russia for which I'd be sitting in jail 🤷). The problem is, it's not "Ukraine defending itself from Russia".
There is this propaganda from Zelensky's regime that we are all volunteering to defend our country against "orcs", and he is the hero that leading us into this battle. This is as far from the truth as it gets. We want peace, which he doesn't even try to achieve (and why would he? War is what allows him to stay in power and steal millions, or likely billions of dollars). His regime needs to resort to kidnapping people on the streets and sending them to the front-lines to die. Some are refusing this and are getting sent to prisons where they are tortured. Some are trying to escape by the mountains/rivers and are dying while trying to do so. So yeah, what I'm pissed about is that the current government, supported by the west, may kill my family or my friends any day now, just like they already killed tens/hundreds of thousands already.
If it was like Zelensky's propaganda is saying where we are defending our country, and our country was not turned into a mass-prison, I'd be sending donates to AFU every freaking month. But in this reality, any support for the current government of my country is equivalent to supporting my family/friends getting killed, and as you can imagine I am not going to do that, and trying to discourage everybody else from doing so.

No, I’m saying they are very unlikely to want a second nuclear disaster on the land they want to control.

And Russia does? They also want to (and in fact do, and are more likely to keep it so) control that land.

Your definition is your own

Indeed. You can share yours and we can discuss it as well.

any territory lost is immediately your enemies’ territory

Well, yes, this is how it works. Territory belongs to whoever controls it. Ukraine can claim it owns Crimea, Donbas and even Moscow itself, but what does it matter if Russia controls it? It's Russia's territory now regardless of what Ukraine and/or international law say. And to take it back they will need to conduct military actions on that territory (which belongs to enemy now, and therefore is "enemy territory"), including bombing it, conducting drone strikes (wherever they deem necessary, including nuclear power plants), etc.
Whose territory is Falkand Islands, Argentina or UK? Whose territory is mainland China, ROC or PRC? Whose territory is Taiwan, PRC or ROC? Whose territory is Northern Cyprus, Republic of Cyprus or Turkey? Depending on your political views you may have different answers to those questions, but in the reality they are controlled by the latter countries, so it is their territory, regardless of what you think. The same situation with south of Ukraine. It of course works the other way around as well, Russia claims that all of the Zaporizhzhia Oblast is theirs, which is not true because they do not control all of it.

Do you think Ukraine are the aggressors?

No.

And anyway, "whose territory it is" is a bikeshedding that does not matter.
What matters are facts - and the facts are that Russia controls the territory that the strike was conducted on. Are you disputing that?
And saying that Russia attacked a territory that it controls, without backing up those claims is a conspiracy theory, don't you think?

There is a possibility that this a false flag, sure!
But to claim that something is a false flag you need to back it up with something better than "they did that in the past so this surely must be it", don't you think?
When countries A and B are at war, and there's an attack happening on the territory of country B, is your first thought "this must be a false flag" or "this must be an attack by country A"?

You’re right, you could actually be a fascist and do it for free

What a wonderful time we live in, expressing an opinion that murdering people is not OK is now considered fascist :)

Or you actually believe their propaganda

Again, you did not even specify what propaganda do I believe? Seriously, why is everybody here so incapable of having a discussion?
Ok I'll bite and play a guessing game with you.
Do you consider that "Zelenskyy is the one not negotiating while Russia has repeatedly said it is willing to negotiate" a propaganda?
If so, just let me know and I will give you sources for that, I just though that it is widely known?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-intelligence-believes-putin-probably-didn-t-order-his-rival-navalny-s-killing-report-claims/ar-AA1nLp5U

Russia took Crimea and that was fine because it was theirs to begin with or whatever right? Georgia Ossetia and Abkhazia ? Chechnya? Transnistria? All of these democratically elected to be “independent” or to be russian right? Definitely nothing going on there.

I am not saying either of those things are okay or not okay (as well as other countries annexing other countries' territories btw), because it depends on whether the people there wanted to part of Russia or not (and we cannot know this for sure, as different sides will claim differently).
As for the Crimea in particular though, I was there a few times while it still belonged to Ukraine, and the people I've met there were mostly extremely pro-Russian and some were openly saying they would like to be a part of Russia. But of course this is a hearsay, and you may have heard different things (which wouldn't mean that either one of us is wrong!), but as I said before I do not assert that this is okay or not okay, I am only saying that I find it quite possible that in case of Crimea it was indeed will of the people (which would make it okay).
The same applies to Donbas - while I have never been there, I've met people from there and some of them were pro-Ukrainian some of them were pro-Russian, I met more pro-Russian ones (but again, I agree that this is a hearsay).
As for the other annexed Ukrainian territories and the countries/regions you've mentioned - I have never spoken with people from those territories, so again I do not assert it was fine or not fine, as it depends on what people of those territories think - and I do now know that.

And well, I personally know plenty of Ukrainians that aren’t hiding and they haven’t been drafted yet

Everybody I know who hasn't managed to escape and is of the draft age and isn't a college student is trying to hide.

So I don’t see why they’d need to resort to kidnappings to get people on the frontlines.

And yet they do.
https://uadraftmuseum.ch
Because Zelensky's propaganda repeated by western media is saying that everybody wants to fight Russia and everybody volunteers, while the reality is completely different, and who could have thought - people want to live instead of dying for their politicians (which is what Zelensky with support from the west is doing). And speaking out this fact, that people want to live, and that it is not okay to kill them, makes people call me fascist here. To clarify - I am not saying there are no volunteers, I even have some distant relatives who have volunteered, but they are a minority, the regime needs to kidnap people from the streets in order to survive.

Go on twitch and other streaming services and you can talk to them yourself.

I have no need for that, it's only logical that not everybody has been kidnapped yet, they do it when they need more people for the meat grinder.
And as I said - for now not everybody needs to fear being kidnapped at any time, as they are not touching some groups of people currently. But they already lowered the age of acceptable kidnapping from 27 to 25, and some even say that kidnapping 18 year olds is only a matter of time (I've read stories about how they have already kidnapped a few kids, and even girls, it's just that for now they let them go when they discover their age/gender, but for how long? let me know if you want me to try to find those stories :) ). Some say that women should get the same treatment.

I don't use it either, but wikipedia (and common knowledge) suggests they do like censoring everything https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Facebook