I'm honestly shocked at how many times I've needed to explain this, it's quite a bother.
In America, liberal = Liberalism. I get it.
I never said Liberalism*, I said liberal. Outside of America, liberal colloquially means those pertaining to the liberal ideology (not the liberalism ideology). Refer to the dictionary definition above for what the liberal ideology is.
*(Nevermind I did say liberalism in a parallel post. Again, I'm not from America, but in context with the screenshot of the definition it's pretty clear I'm referring to liberal ideology)
No, liberalism means liberal, even outside America.
There is really no need to be this stubborn. Look it up yourself.
It does. The term liberal comes from liberalism, which was founded during the Enlightenment. It isn't an "American" thing to tie liberalism to liberals, it's the definition.
It's the definition when you're talking about liberalism for sure. But that's not what I'm referring to. The other definition is the one which, in context, I am obviously referring to.
one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways
With the previous definition, it is clear I am talking about leftists. Context is king.
But, lesson learned; don't use the phrase liberal outside of a philosophical/academic context.
Leftism isn't a vague, general synonym for "goodness," nor does it entitled you to use terminology for a right-wing ideology as a synonym for leftism. Even in a philosophical and academic concept, you'd get a bunch of confused looks.
Capitalists can be open-minded and go against tradition without being left-wing.
Left vs. Right isn't about open-mindedness or a sense of futurism, it's about collective vs. individual ownership of the Means of Production.
Using an Enlightenment term for a Capitalist ideology as a term to describe leftists is wrong.
That's why everyone has been pointing out that you've been using terms incorrectly. You can either accept that you misspoke, and everyone can move on, or we will be stuck here.
Honestly, let's be stuck here. I'm tired of repeating myself. There's nothing to be gained here, you understand what I was trying to say, even if you think my words were wrong, and that's good enough for me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not heated, I appreciate that you've helped me to understand that I can't say liberal on the internet because people will misunderstand my intention.
It's more that you shouldn't use right wing terms to refer to left wing ideas, it's generally bad practice to pretend people believe in the opposite of reality.
To be clear, when I did a few university classes on philosophy, the term liberal was used to mean how I was using it. It was not once used to mean anything other than that (except during the first time the concept was introduced to us, when the lecturer said the Australian Liberal Party isn't liberal).
So for me, liberal is not a right wing term, it is inherently leftist.
It cannot be.
Leftism is not synonymous with forward thinking, nor synonymous with being open minded. Leftism is about worker ownership of the Means of Production.
Liberal, again, is focused on the Enlightenment philosophy Liberalism, which is characterized by espousing individual liberty and private property rights. It focuses on things like being open-minded and forward-thinking, like you've said, but you're misattributing that to leftism.
You've also been incorrectly saying Americans miscategorize the term into a right-wing term. It's the opposite, conservative fascists see liberals, who are still right-wingers, as leftists, due to the Overton Window. Liberals are still right-wing, and still espouse support for Capitalism.
Yep, my bad. Yes, left-right is about means of production and economical sharing. Though, I would argue, leftism is inherently progressive, because communism naturally succeeds capitalism.
I suppose one day leftism and progressivism will part ways, but it's unlikely to occur in our lifetime.
So for now, I hope my intent was inferred, when my words were wrong.
Now, you're starting to make more sense!
I would definitely agree that Leftism is usually more progressive than Rightism! It certainly is, in countries like America, where the genuine leftists are also very advanced when it comes to social issues. However, because leftism is not defined by being open-minded, correct, or even forward-thinking, and merely tends to align with those far more often than not, it can be confusing to completely combine the terminology when they ought not to.
It's like using "red" as a synonym for fascism, when red is also the color of Anarcho-Communism, just because the Nazis used red on their flag. It's better to use the proper terms.
That's why I wear a Swastika whenever I go out in public, so people know that I want to spread prosperity and good luck!
Thanks for clearing that up, I'll be more careful with using leftist/progressive/liberal from now.
those pertaining to the liberal ideology (not the liberalism ideology)
This is confusing, you seem to be using colloquial definitions of liberal with political ones interchangeably, but in the context of the political right denouncing liberal political projects as "woke" suggests you mean political liberals in the US.
When I see liberal parties in other countries, namely Europe, they are classed as center-right. Here in Canada they're a little more spread out but economic right for sure. For just a quick example, I support strong affirmative action, but for political liberals that has become watered down to "equality of opportunity" and disparity frameworks.
It is very confusing for sure, I've been chasing my own tail all night lol.
The way I've been using liberal is how it is defined in that definition. I don't mean it as "a lot".
In a parallel post I mentioned how the context it was used within my university classes meant as the definition as posted in my screenshot, and not as liberalism, which is naturally incompatible with the definition above.
When I referred to right-wing denouncing poltical liberals, I didn't mean Liberalists, I meant those who hold the beliefs of the left/progressive.
To clarify, when I say liberal, I mean those who hold the values based on the definition I provided (leftists/progressives).
I'm honestly shocked at how many times I've needed to explain this, it's quite a bother.
In America, liberal = Liberalism. I get it.
I never said Liberalism*, I said liberal. Outside of America, liberal colloquially means those pertaining to the liberal ideology (not the liberalism ideology). Refer to the dictionary definition above for what the liberal ideology is.
*(Nevermind I did say liberalism in a parallel post. Again, I'm not from America, but in context with the screenshot of the definition it's pretty clear I'm referring to liberal ideology)
No, liberalism means liberal, even outside America.
It doesn't
There is really no need to be this stubborn. Look it up yourself.
It does. The term liberal comes from liberalism, which was founded during the Enlightenment. It isn't an "American" thing to tie liberalism to liberals, it's the definition.
It's the definition when you're talking about liberalism for sure. But that's not what I'm referring to. The other definition is the one which, in context, I am obviously referring to.
With the previous definition, it is clear I am talking about leftists. Context is king.
But, lesson learned; don't use the phrase liberal outside of a philosophical/academic context.
Leftism isn't a vague, general synonym for "goodness," nor does it entitled you to use terminology for a right-wing ideology as a synonym for leftism. Even in a philosophical and academic concept, you'd get a bunch of confused looks.
Capitalists can be open-minded and go against tradition without being left-wing.
Left vs. Right isn't about open-mindedness or a sense of futurism, it's about collective vs. individual ownership of the Means of Production.
Using an Enlightenment term for a Capitalist ideology as a term to describe leftists is wrong.
That's why everyone has been pointing out that you've been using terms incorrectly. You can either accept that you misspoke, and everyone can move on, or we will be stuck here.
Honestly, let's be stuck here. I'm tired of repeating myself. There's nothing to be gained here, you understand what I was trying to say, even if you think my words were wrong, and that's good enough for me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not heated, I appreciate that you've helped me to understand that I can't say liberal on the internet because people will misunderstand my intention.
It's more that you shouldn't use right wing terms to refer to left wing ideas, it's generally bad practice to pretend people believe in the opposite of reality.
To be clear, when I did a few university classes on philosophy, the term liberal was used to mean how I was using it. It was not once used to mean anything other than that (except during the first time the concept was introduced to us, when the lecturer said the Australian Liberal Party isn't liberal).
So for me, liberal is not a right wing term, it is inherently leftist.
It cannot be.
Leftism is not synonymous with forward thinking, nor synonymous with being open minded. Leftism is about worker ownership of the Means of Production.
Liberal, again, is focused on the Enlightenment philosophy Liberalism, which is characterized by espousing individual liberty and private property rights. It focuses on things like being open-minded and forward-thinking, like you've said, but you're misattributing that to leftism.
You've also been incorrectly saying Americans miscategorize the term into a right-wing term. It's the opposite, conservative fascists see liberals, who are still right-wingers, as leftists, due to the Overton Window. Liberals are still right-wing, and still espouse support for Capitalism.
Yep, my bad. Yes, left-right is about means of production and economical sharing. Though, I would argue, leftism is inherently progressive, because communism naturally succeeds capitalism.
I suppose one day leftism and progressivism will part ways, but it's unlikely to occur in our lifetime.
So for now, I hope my intent was inferred, when my words were wrong.
Now, you're starting to make more sense!
I would definitely agree that Leftism is usually more progressive than Rightism! It certainly is, in countries like America, where the genuine leftists are also very advanced when it comes to social issues. However, because leftism is not defined by being open-minded, correct, or even forward-thinking, and merely tends to align with those far more often than not, it can be confusing to completely combine the terminology when they ought not to.
It's like using "red" as a synonym for fascism, when red is also the color of Anarcho-Communism, just because the Nazis used red on their flag. It's better to use the proper terms.
That's why I wear a Swastika whenever I go out in public, so people know that I want to spread prosperity and good luck!
Thanks for clearing that up, I'll be more careful with using leftist/progressive/liberal from now.
This is confusing, you seem to be using colloquial definitions of liberal with political ones interchangeably, but in the context of the political right denouncing liberal political projects as "woke" suggests you mean political liberals in the US.
When I see liberal parties in other countries, namely Europe, they are classed as center-right. Here in Canada they're a little more spread out but economic right for sure. For just a quick example, I support strong affirmative action, but for political liberals that has become watered down to "equality of opportunity" and disparity frameworks.
It is very confusing for sure, I've been chasing my own tail all night lol.
The way I've been using liberal is how it is defined in that definition. I don't mean it as "a lot".
In a parallel post I mentioned how the context it was used within my university classes meant as the definition as posted in my screenshot, and not as liberalism, which is naturally incompatible with the definition above.
When I referred to right-wing denouncing poltical liberals, I didn't mean Liberalists, I meant those who hold the beliefs of the left/progressive.
To clarify, when I say liberal, I mean those who hold the values based on the definition I provided (leftists/progressives).