The alternative is to outright ban it. Tik Tok is a cancer directly controlled by a hostile nation state. The government absolutely has the right to block foreign interference like this.
Pray tell how is this any worse than Facebook? Is the CCP in the Los Angeles TikTok office moderating content?
Or is this just more bullshit invented on the spot to justify an unconstitutional power grab?
Facebook isn't under an obligation to provide America's data directly to the government of a hostile foreign power. Tiktok is
An obligation? Is there proof of that? That's a pretty incendiary accusation.
Technically according to this article tiktok won't share data with the PRC - but their parent company bytedance is obligated to share data with the PRC when requested. Bytedance has authority to require tiktok to share data. Therefore through this channel tiktok is obligated to share data with the PRC when requested.
Bytedance owning a stake in TikTok does not mean they can require TikTok to share data. Especially if we made a common sense law to protect data saying it's not allowed to leave the country.
Oh wait, that's already a thing. And we just let Meta and the other data vendors keep doing it.
Attempts have been made. But the data is still sent.
We should have better and more comprehensive data privacy laws across the board but whataboutism doesn't change the fact that tiktok is obligated to share Americans data with a hostile and repressive foreign power.
Did... Did you actually read it? They sent user data for app engagement research. Oh no the CCP knows you're a middle aged white guy in Oklahoma! The world is going to end!!!
And if we're going to ban any data going to the CCP then we should just do that. It's not whataboutism to point out you're only punishing the odd duck for a crime all of the ducks are committing openly. Make that law and reform the industry. Anything less is just a racist excuse for a fire sale.
Nothing in the article cites a reason for why the data was sent. In fact the article specifically mentions that this data being sent was to circumvent attempts to limit the transmission of American citizens data to a hostile foreign government.
We should ban the sale and transmission of Americans sensitive data to hostile foreign powers regardless of the company. I support this action because it would help do that, and I would support (and I do advocate for) more broad data privacy legislation. If you support data privacy why would you not support a bill which enhances data privacy, even if it doesn't go far enough?
You started this discussion with me by saying that tiktok isnt obligated to send data, when I provided sourcing to that effect you brought up corporate structure questions asking if the data was being sent. I provided a source showing that it is transmitted through those avenues regardless. Now your argument is that because we don't have totally comprehensive data privacy regulation we can just ignore the fact that tiktok is sending American citizens private data to a hostile foreign power? If you think that isn't a big deal just say so, then we can have an honest conversation.
Oh look, a reason-
The spreadsheets included users’ names, email addresses, IP addresses, and geographic and demographic information and was used to determine how to develop TikTok’s algorithm to encourage users to be more active on the app, he said.
And no it was their own Project Texas. Also, not nearly the data anyone is worried about. They can get that from your bank. (And yes banks sell data) That's not a breach of national security, it's just good business sense to retain consumers. This is also the only instance the article actually finds. The article also mentions the software programmers saying that the data coding itself is well siloed, i.e. no back doors.
So is this the horrible national security problem we've all heard so much about? A vital statistics spreadsheet you can buy from any Data Vendor? When you say they're obligated to send information people aren't thinking it's just literately a headcount. They're thinking it's political affiliation, income, job, social networking maps, GPS travel data. You know the stuff that the CCP intelligence people could fit together to find out what kind of porn you like and figure out how they can get that kind of porn in China.
Every argument for why we should ban TikTok fits Facebook and Twitter just as well. They both willingly give a lot more than that spreadsheet to the CCP. Facebook is perenially in congressional hearings over getting caught doing exactly what you're accusing TikTok of, and yet somehow here we are worrying about TikTok because of nebulous racist fearmongering that falls apart the second we find the "smoking gun".
They're owned by the CCP (and before you say they're not, the ByteDance C-suite is basically all current Chinese citizens and the headquarters is in Beijing).
Businesses and people do not have rights in the way most westerners are used to. Assume anything out of China or generally owned by Chinese companies is a direct arm of the CCP ... because even if it isn't today, the CCP can unilaterally throw down an order from the top and take control of the company/have them do whatever they want or the leaders replaced.
So are American companies that are basically all Americans in the C-Suite owned by the US Government?
Even if what you were saying was true, the common sense approach is to ban the trading of data internationally. Then TikTok can tell Beijing to pound sand if they tried anything. Instead we have this fear mongering racist bullshit being touted.
So are American companies that are basically all Americans in the C-Suite owned by the US Government?
Ultimately, yes. The US government can tell Google to report all searches of "I'm a goofy goober!" to them to collect a list of SpongeBob fans.
The same is true of a company like Proton and Swiss law.
The difference is that in the US/Switzerland/Western Democracy there are rights, laws, and courts that limit and check government power and action + open ended elections. Biden cannot just go to Elon Musk and tell him "this is my company now, you WILL report all the goofy goobers." There are a lot of roadblocks to that kind of behavior.
The CCP is a monoculture based around the "National People's Congress". The NPC is effectively the CCP because the CCP picks who is eligible to be part of the NPC https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China
For all intents and purposes, what Xi wants is what happens. There is no court to check him, there is no opposition party to hold him back, and anyone that tries to stand in his way will more than likely be "punished."
This is not racist bull shit. It has nothing to do with Chinese people and everything to do with the CCP.
The trading of data also has very little to do with anything. It's about cutting off a hostile, authoritarian, foreign power from having a direct line to millions of US citizens to push whatever message they want with minimal oversight. The data is surely just icing on the cake for the CCP because they might be able to find some blackmail worthy piece of information in their hoard of metrics and videos for a current or future public figure.
I don't think you understand either ... "Banning" something only works if they care about the law and the CCP does not care at all about US laws. If they want to break them, they will, and they will either get the people that did the job for them back to China or use people that don't know anything/any better as scapegoats. It's the exact same stuff any government would do, international law is imaginary because ultimately nations do not answer to nations except by diplomacy and war.
Lmao. Okay we're done here. You have an outsized idea of nationality, government power, and what's in TikTok data.
You're just naive if you honestly think companies are somehow "above" the nations of their owners or that government power has some real limit beyond what other nations are willing (and able) to punish them over.
It's also pretty naive to assert there's nothing of value in that data, particularly of the blackmail variety. That stupid distasteful video you uploaded and then "deleted" at a teen ... there's no guarantee they don't have it. The location ping your phone made when you were cheating on your spouse and opened TikTok while waiting for your mistress, there's no guarantee they don't have it.
You could even use popular political videos as the basis for evaluating who's more likely to cooperate or believe you following an attack and mix that with geographic data to figure out how to minimize the risk of guerilla fighters. Similarly, you could use the social network graph to figure out how to put pressure on someone.
I mean, social media is honestly nasty in terms of what it can tell you about a society.
That doesn't even begin to touch on the ability to directly manipulate a proprietary content promotion algorithm. You think they can effectively manipulate Facebook? There are no limits to the manipulation they can perform on TikTok and there is no framework for overseeing social media algorithm performance.
Multi national corporations are so beholden to their countries they cheat on their taxes and break any law they can get away with. Including selling data directly to the CCP.
So no. I don't have time or the willpower to argue with someone who thinks international affairs is a video game and everything is tied to countries.
Just because a nation chooses to let things go unnoticed, it does not mean the nation does not have the power.
If the US Govt decides to break up Apple or Google, they are no longer whole; that's the end of it.
Just because the principal at your school let kids break a few rules and some teachers use sick days like vacation days doesn't mean the principal doesn't have power over the kids and teachers.
You're incredibly naive to think the most powerful entities in the world, nation states, are some toothless, harmless play thing that large corporations can "just subvert." That's the video game perspective.
To be clear, China understands this whole thing very well. There's a reason they're trying to kick US tech companies out and it isn't because they're afraid of the tech company itself.
Oh wow. You really just don't know do you? They have to go to court to break up Apple or Google and prove a case. And this isn't a principal on a power trip. You think it's a button press and you call me naive? Jesus wept.
They have to go to court because the western government itself has checks and balances, as I previously stated.
It's entirely within congress's authority to change the law to make it the press of a button. It's not a matter of "whether or not they have the power." It's where or not they allow themselves to exercise the power.
China doesn't have all these roadblocks, especially in the Xi error; it's much closer to an outright dictatorship than it's been in many years.
The alternative is to outright ban it. Tik Tok is a cancer directly controlled by a hostile nation state. The government absolutely has the right to block foreign interference like this.
Pray tell how is this any worse than Facebook? Is the CCP in the Los Angeles TikTok office moderating content?
Or is this just more bullshit invented on the spot to justify an unconstitutional power grab?
Facebook isn't under an obligation to provide America's data directly to the government of a hostile foreign power. Tiktok is
An obligation? Is there proof of that? That's a pretty incendiary accusation.
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/afcl/fact-check-tiktok-03242023144611.html
Technically according to this article tiktok won't share data with the PRC - but their parent company bytedance is obligated to share data with the PRC when requested. Bytedance has authority to require tiktok to share data. Therefore through this channel tiktok is obligated to share data with the PRC when requested.
Bytedance owning a stake in TikTok does not mean they can require TikTok to share data. Especially if we made a common sense law to protect data saying it's not allowed to leave the country.
Oh wait, that's already a thing. And we just let Meta and the other data vendors keep doing it.
Attempts have been made. But the data is still sent.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/16/24132315/tiktok-bytedance-project-texas-china-silo
We should have better and more comprehensive data privacy laws across the board but whataboutism doesn't change the fact that tiktok is obligated to share Americans data with a hostile and repressive foreign power.
Did... Did you actually read it? They sent user data for app engagement research. Oh no the CCP knows you're a middle aged white guy in Oklahoma! The world is going to end!!!
And if we're going to ban any data going to the CCP then we should just do that. It's not whataboutism to point out you're only punishing the odd duck for a crime all of the ducks are committing openly. Make that law and reform the industry. Anything less is just a racist excuse for a fire sale.
Nothing in the article cites a reason for why the data was sent. In fact the article specifically mentions that this data being sent was to circumvent attempts to limit the transmission of American citizens data to a hostile foreign government.
We should ban the sale and transmission of Americans sensitive data to hostile foreign powers regardless of the company. I support this action because it would help do that, and I would support (and I do advocate for) more broad data privacy legislation. If you support data privacy why would you not support a bill which enhances data privacy, even if it doesn't go far enough?
You started this discussion with me by saying that tiktok isnt obligated to send data, when I provided sourcing to that effect you brought up corporate structure questions asking if the data was being sent. I provided a source showing that it is transmitted through those avenues regardless. Now your argument is that because we don't have totally comprehensive data privacy regulation we can just ignore the fact that tiktok is sending American citizens private data to a hostile foreign power? If you think that isn't a big deal just say so, then we can have an honest conversation.
Oh look, a reason-
And no it was their own Project Texas. Also, not nearly the data anyone is worried about. They can get that from your bank. (And yes banks sell data) That's not a breach of national security, it's just good business sense to retain consumers. This is also the only instance the article actually finds. The article also mentions the software programmers saying that the data coding itself is well siloed, i.e. no back doors.
So is this the horrible national security problem we've all heard so much about? A vital statistics spreadsheet you can buy from any Data Vendor? When you say they're obligated to send information people aren't thinking it's just literately a headcount. They're thinking it's political affiliation, income, job, social networking maps, GPS travel data. You know the stuff that the CCP intelligence people could fit together to find out what kind of porn you like and figure out how they can get that kind of porn in China.
Every argument for why we should ban TikTok fits Facebook and Twitter just as well. They both willingly give a lot more than that spreadsheet to the CCP. Facebook is perenially in congressional hearings over getting caught doing exactly what you're accusing TikTok of, and yet somehow here we are worrying about TikTok because of nebulous racist fearmongering that falls apart the second we find the "smoking gun".
They're owned by the CCP (and before you say they're not, the ByteDance C-suite is basically all current Chinese citizens and the headquarters is in Beijing).
Businesses and people do not have rights in the way most westerners are used to. Assume anything out of China or generally owned by Chinese companies is a direct arm of the CCP ... because even if it isn't today, the CCP can unilaterally throw down an order from the top and take control of the company/have them do whatever they want or the leaders replaced.
So are American companies that are basically all Americans in the C-Suite owned by the US Government?
Even if what you were saying was true, the common sense approach is to ban the trading of data internationally. Then TikTok can tell Beijing to pound sand if they tried anything. Instead we have this fear mongering racist bullshit being touted.
Ultimately, yes. The US government can tell Google to report all searches of "I'm a goofy goober!" to them to collect a list of SpongeBob fans.
The same is true of a company like Proton and Swiss law.
The difference is that in the US/Switzerland/Western Democracy there are rights, laws, and courts that limit and check government power and action + open ended elections. Biden cannot just go to Elon Musk and tell him "this is my company now, you WILL report all the goofy goobers." There are a lot of roadblocks to that kind of behavior.
The CCP is a monoculture based around the "National People's Congress". The NPC is effectively the CCP because the CCP picks who is eligible to be part of the NPC https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China
The CCP is currently effectively controlled by Xi who has claimed increasing amounts of control over the party: https://journalofdemocracy.org/articles/china-in-xis-new-era-the-return-to-personalistic-rule/
For all intents and purposes, what Xi wants is what happens. There is no court to check him, there is no opposition party to hold him back, and anyone that tries to stand in his way will more than likely be "punished."
This is not racist bull shit. It has nothing to do with Chinese people and everything to do with the CCP.
The trading of data also has very little to do with anything. It's about cutting off a hostile, authoritarian, foreign power from having a direct line to millions of US citizens to push whatever message they want with minimal oversight. The data is surely just icing on the cake for the CCP because they might be able to find some blackmail worthy piece of information in their hoard of metrics and videos for a current or future public figure.
I don't think you understand either ... "Banning" something only works if they care about the law and the CCP does not care at all about US laws. If they want to break them, they will, and they will either get the people that did the job for them back to China or use people that don't know anything/any better as scapegoats. It's the exact same stuff any government would do, international law is imaginary because ultimately nations do not answer to nations except by diplomacy and war.
Lmao. Okay we're done here. You have an outsized idea of nationality, government power, and what's in TikTok data.
You're just naive if you honestly think companies are somehow "above" the nations of their owners or that government power has some real limit beyond what other nations are willing (and able) to punish them over.
It's also pretty naive to assert there's nothing of value in that data, particularly of the blackmail variety. That stupid distasteful video you uploaded and then "deleted" at a teen ... there's no guarantee they don't have it. The location ping your phone made when you were cheating on your spouse and opened TikTok while waiting for your mistress, there's no guarantee they don't have it.
You could even use popular political videos as the basis for evaluating who's more likely to cooperate or believe you following an attack and mix that with geographic data to figure out how to minimize the risk of guerilla fighters. Similarly, you could use the social network graph to figure out how to put pressure on someone.
I mean, social media is honestly nasty in terms of what it can tell you about a society.
That doesn't even begin to touch on the ability to directly manipulate a proprietary content promotion algorithm. You think they can effectively manipulate Facebook? There are no limits to the manipulation they can perform on TikTok and there is no framework for overseeing social media algorithm performance.
Multi national corporations are so beholden to their countries they cheat on their taxes and break any law they can get away with. Including selling data directly to the CCP.
So no. I don't have time or the willpower to argue with someone who thinks international affairs is a video game and everything is tied to countries.
Just because a nation chooses to let things go unnoticed, it does not mean the nation does not have the power.
If the US Govt decides to break up Apple or Google, they are no longer whole; that's the end of it.
Just because the principal at your school let kids break a few rules and some teachers use sick days like vacation days doesn't mean the principal doesn't have power over the kids and teachers.
You're incredibly naive to think the most powerful entities in the world, nation states, are some toothless, harmless play thing that large corporations can "just subvert." That's the video game perspective.
To be clear, China understands this whole thing very well. There's a reason they're trying to kick US tech companies out and it isn't because they're afraid of the tech company itself.
Oh wow. You really just don't know do you? They have to go to court to break up Apple or Google and prove a case. And this isn't a principal on a power trip. You think it's a button press and you call me naive? Jesus wept.
They have to go to court because the western government itself has checks and balances, as I previously stated.
It's entirely within congress's authority to change the law to make it the press of a button. It's not a matter of "whether or not they have the power." It's where or not they allow themselves to exercise the power.
China doesn't have all these roadblocks, especially in the Xi error; it's much closer to an outright dictatorship than it's been in many years.