"Taxes! They want to raise taxes! They're coming for your hard earned money! That's all they do is raise taxes!"
And you just lost the center. We both know that's how they're going to spin it. In the HOPE (I choose that word very carefully) that the people that never vote will magically vote. You lose the guaranteed vote (which counts double) from people that are engaged, in the HOPE that some others maybe, possibly, hopefully, perhaps, show up. I think they'll just say "still not enough, so I'm still not voting in protest". The math does not work. Elections are won from the center.
"We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"
Funny because that's exactly what I think of these protest non-voters. They've tried nothing (literally nothing because they don't vote) and they're all out of ideas.
Is this the point where I point out that the dems have had all 3 (house, senate, presidency) for 4 years of the last 24 years? They need all 3 to actually pass anything progressive. But the non-voters never try to give them any real control.
What about the ones that vote every single time, and still never get what they wanted?
Edited my comment, so you probably didn't see. And we are at that point.
Is this the point where I point out that the dems have had all 3 (house, senate, presidency) for 4 years of the last 24 years? They need all 3 to actually pass anything progressive. But the non-voters never try to give them any real control.
Want to include Bill Clinton? Then it's 6 years of the last 32 years. Want to go further? Then it's 6 years of the last 44 years. Read that again, 6 years of the last 44 fucking years dems have had control of all 3.
And that can still be filibustered. If you want filibuster proof majority then it's 4 MONTHS of the last 44 years. Not 4 years, 4 MONTHS out of the least 44 fucking years.
That's why it's tried nothing and all out of ideas.
So we're back to the point where the system is hopelessly broken? Because what you just described is the system. You want to fantasize about non-voters just suddenly deciding to vote blue in overwhelming numbers. I fantasize about genuine, inspiring leaders and policies bringing more participation to the process. They're both just fantasies though.
You want to fantasize about non-voters just suddenly deciding to vote blue in overwhelming number.
What? That's you.
I'm the one saying that elections are won from the center, from swing voters that you know vote. And that the center vote is worth double. You are the one waxing poetically about the fringes, and the non-voters, and how the fringes are going to come out in droves to replace the double loss of centre voters. I'm the one saying you need twice as many (more than twice actually) to replace the center votes. But you think these droves and hordes of people are going to magically appear. You're officially making no sense when you try to pin that on me.
Winning elections from the center is reality, not fantasy. It's literally what happens.
And I'm saying, that it's a shitty system. You described how this very system has kept the democrats from getting anything done for decades. There are not enough swing voters to give them sustained control over those institutions. You also make an error in assuming that every non-voter you energize would mean losing one swing voter. There are also more than double the non-voters as there are swing voters.
And what keeps them from power? Besides votes, it's particularly these people that say "I'm not gong to vote in protest".
Not every, but the vast majority of people that don't vote are the ones on the fringes. That yes would mean losing the centre vote in order to appeal to.
There are also more than double the non-voters as there are swing voters.
So you are the one that thinks the hordes and droves of non-voters will come out. You think that. Not me, you. Get that right.
So I think we're back to me saying you win elections from center. The people that vote, and not the ones that maybe, possibly, perchance, could, HOPEfully magically show up. You take the guarantee, not the vain hope.
I'm saying we're both fantasizing. You keep talking about winning elections from the center, but it keeps resulting in gridlock and inability to deliver even on tepid, centrist policies. Yay. Also, there's no way that most non voters are on the fringes lol. Most of them are absolutely disengaged from politics almost entirely.
Lol winning elections from the center is not fantasy. It's literally how elections are won from both sides. That's how Trump won imo, he appealed to the so-called Middle class manufacturing jobs (and because Hillary no vote protest).
Sounds very much like you want to justify your non-voting protest, so you have to denigrate the center win as "fantasy", when it is in fact reality. Just so you can throw your hands up and say it's all fantasy. Sounds familiar? This is the "I tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas" non voter which you sure sound like.
Also, there's no way that most non voters are on the fringes lo
What are you even on about. Are you missing the entire point that there are central swing voters? These are voters. They are Central voters. They are swing voters. They vote. They are not non-voters. Is that what this whole problem is, you refuse to see the existence of central swing voters? JFC. That does explain things. Yeah it seems you refuse to see the real existence of central swing voters that actually vote. JFC. These voters, that exist, are the ones that decide elections.
And for this group that you think will come out when they are presented with some big, I'm going to say extreme left, platform for them to fall in love with are exactly the ones on the fringes. Like by definition. Disengaged people are by definition disengaged. The protest voters in waiting, waiting for some big platform are not the central disengaged ones. They are the fringe ones waiting for some big extreme left platform, and withholding their vote until they get that big extreme platform. They are fringe by definition. To appeal to the fringe ones waiting for some big platform you are going to lose the central voters that exist, that vote, that show up. JFC. I really wonder if you're trolling at this point.
Btw this is the horde (the fringe horde waiting for big extreme platform and until then they're withholding their vote) that you think will show up. Not me, you You think that this big horde will show up, so big that they will override the central voters that are lost. By definition this big horde of yours will have to be over twice the size of the central voters (the ones that exist) that you will lose.
Goddam. I am saying the fantasy is that this system of winning elections by fighting over the center doesn't really lead anywhere good. You talked about how the dems haven't had solid power for decades. So yes, they "win" elections sometimes, but then what? They haven't won enough to get much done. The fantasy is that they ever will. Blame whoever you want for that, but it is what it is. I might blame the people who do politics professionally for not being good enough at it. You like to think that I don't vote, but I have never said that, so you are just assuming.
You have this garbage system, and yet you totally write off disengaged voters as totally unworthy of any political attention. Don't you think that just maybe, it is possible that a lot of people look at a system that just seems like bullshit to make rich richer and otherwise cause misery, and they just don't see the point?
”I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas!"
Like bravo.
For the sake of making this easier I'm going to just assume you want things further left. So how do you get things further left? By giving Dems consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose they have to go to the center, because that's where elections are won.
So what do you as the informed left voter, that wants things to go further left, do? You vote for the Dems. You give them consistent and overwhelming victories. You don't withhold your vote in protest thinking that the platform is magically going to go left. Because it's not. When dems lose it's going to go into the center. Because that's where you win elections.
And when I say this you want to throw your hands up and say it's all a fantasy. Seems very, very much like you just want to justify your non-voting. I hear this all the time from leftists on this platform, you (you didn't actually say you vote for Dems) and many, many, many people that talk exactly like you.
You have this garbage system, and yet you totally write off disengaged voters as totally unworthy of any political attention.
I'm saying you win elections from the middle.
Wait you're doing it again. You're mixing up disengaged voters and the fringe protest non voters that are waiting for some big extreme left platform and are withholding their vote until that comes. Disengaged voters are by definition disengaged, they are effectively not voting ever. The protest non-voters we are discussing, the ones that are withholding their vote until they get some big extreme left platform are by definition on the fringe. JFC this couldn't be clearer. Pretty much by definition going after these voters means you will lose the central voters. You are trading the central voters (the ones whose vote counts double because it's a vote taken away from the other party and a vote for your party. And remember these are voters that actually exist, that actually vote, they are real). Okay start that again, you are trading the central voters (whose vote counts double) for this Fringe that maybe, possibly, perhaps, hopefully, perchance, could, mayyyyyybbbbbbeeeeeee show up. Do you understand that math? The math does not work out.
Do you want some recent history on that? Look at Hillary Clinton. She just went a little bit of tiny itsy bitsy left with the map room to address climate change. Trump came in and grabbed the center vote. Bam she lost the election. Btw so what happened to the horde of left voters that you think will materialize? They said "not extreme left enough, I will continue to withhold my vote in protest!" Yeah they didn't materialize. So what do you think Biden did? Do you think he or any other politician will court these voters that didn't show up? No they won't, they learnt that it's a losing proposition. They learnt that you win elections from the center, and that's where they went, and that's where they won.
system that just seems like bullshit to make rich richer and otherwise cause misery, and they just don't see the point?
Lmao and you wonder why I talk like you're the non-voting individual to make things easier. See what I said above about you the informed left voter can do.
I don't know if I'm going to keep responding, it takes longer and longer to sort out your confusion, mixing, and refusal to see the actual central voters that actually exist. Everything has been said many times and I'm just repeating myself.
"Taxes! They want to raise taxes! They're coming for your hard earned money! That's all they do is raise taxes!"
And you just lost the center. We both know that's how they're going to spin it. In the HOPE (I choose that word very carefully) that the people that never vote will magically vote. You lose the guaranteed vote (which counts double) from people that are engaged, in the HOPE that some others maybe, possibly, hopefully, perhaps, show up. I think they'll just say "still not enough, so I'm still not voting in protest". The math does not work. Elections are won from the center.
"We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"
Funny because that's exactly what I think of these protest non-voters. They've tried nothing (literally nothing because they don't vote) and they're all out of ideas.
Is this the point where I point out that the dems have had all 3 (house, senate, presidency) for 4 years of the last 24 years? They need all 3 to actually pass anything progressive. But the non-voters never try to give them any real control.
What about the ones that vote every single time, and still never get what they wanted?
Edited my comment, so you probably didn't see. And we are at that point.
Is this the point where I point out that the dems have had all 3 (house, senate, presidency) for 4 years of the last 24 years? They need all 3 to actually pass anything progressive. But the non-voters never try to give them any real control.
Want to include Bill Clinton? Then it's 6 years of the last 32 years. Want to go further? Then it's 6 years of the last 44 years. Read that again, 6 years of the last 44 fucking years dems have had control of all 3.
And that can still be filibustered. If you want filibuster proof majority then it's 4 MONTHS of the last 44 years. Not 4 years, 4 MONTHS out of the least 44 fucking years.
That's why it's tried nothing and all out of ideas.
So we're back to the point where the system is hopelessly broken? Because what you just described is the system. You want to fantasize about non-voters just suddenly deciding to vote blue in overwhelming numbers. I fantasize about genuine, inspiring leaders and policies bringing more participation to the process. They're both just fantasies though.
What? That's you.
I'm the one saying that elections are won from the center, from swing voters that you know vote. And that the center vote is worth double. You are the one waxing poetically about the fringes, and the non-voters, and how the fringes are going to come out in droves to replace the double loss of centre voters. I'm the one saying you need twice as many (more than twice actually) to replace the center votes. But you think these droves and hordes of people are going to magically appear. You're officially making no sense when you try to pin that on me.
Winning elections from the center is reality, not fantasy. It's literally what happens.
And I'm saying, that it's a shitty system. You described how this very system has kept the democrats from getting anything done for decades. There are not enough swing voters to give them sustained control over those institutions. You also make an error in assuming that every non-voter you energize would mean losing one swing voter. There are also more than double the non-voters as there are swing voters.
And what keeps them from power? Besides votes, it's particularly these people that say "I'm not gong to vote in protest".
Not every, but the vast majority of people that don't vote are the ones on the fringes. That yes would mean losing the centre vote in order to appeal to.
So you are the one that thinks the hordes and droves of non-voters will come out. You think that. Not me, you. Get that right.
So I think we're back to me saying you win elections from center. The people that vote, and not the ones that maybe, possibly, perchance, could, HOPEfully magically show up. You take the guarantee, not the vain hope.
I'm saying we're both fantasizing. You keep talking about winning elections from the center, but it keeps resulting in gridlock and inability to deliver even on tepid, centrist policies. Yay. Also, there's no way that most non voters are on the fringes lol. Most of them are absolutely disengaged from politics almost entirely.
Lol winning elections from the center is not fantasy. It's literally how elections are won from both sides. That's how Trump won imo, he appealed to the so-called Middle class manufacturing jobs (and because Hillary no vote protest).
Sounds very much like you want to justify your non-voting protest, so you have to denigrate the center win as "fantasy", when it is in fact reality. Just so you can throw your hands up and say it's all fantasy. Sounds familiar? This is the "I tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas" non voter which you sure sound like.
What are you even on about. Are you missing the entire point that there are central swing voters? These are voters. They are Central voters. They are swing voters. They vote. They are not non-voters. Is that what this whole problem is, you refuse to see the existence of central swing voters? JFC. That does explain things. Yeah it seems you refuse to see the real existence of central swing voters that actually vote. JFC. These voters, that exist, are the ones that decide elections.
And for this group that you think will come out when they are presented with some big, I'm going to say extreme left, platform for them to fall in love with are exactly the ones on the fringes. Like by definition. Disengaged people are by definition disengaged. The protest voters in waiting, waiting for some big platform are not the central disengaged ones. They are the fringe ones waiting for some big extreme left platform, and withholding their vote until they get that big extreme platform. They are fringe by definition. To appeal to the fringe ones waiting for some big platform you are going to lose the central voters that exist, that vote, that show up. JFC. I really wonder if you're trolling at this point.
Btw this is the horde (the fringe horde waiting for big extreme platform and until then they're withholding their vote) that you think will show up. Not me, you You think that this big horde will show up, so big that they will override the central voters that are lost. By definition this big horde of yours will have to be over twice the size of the central voters (the ones that exist) that you will lose.
Goddam. I am saying the fantasy is that this system of winning elections by fighting over the center doesn't really lead anywhere good. You talked about how the dems haven't had solid power for decades. So yes, they "win" elections sometimes, but then what? They haven't won enough to get much done. The fantasy is that they ever will. Blame whoever you want for that, but it is what it is. I might blame the people who do politics professionally for not being good enough at it. You like to think that I don't vote, but I have never said that, so you are just assuming.
You have this garbage system, and yet you totally write off disengaged voters as totally unworthy of any political attention. Don't you think that just maybe, it is possible that a lot of people look at a system that just seems like bullshit to make rich richer and otherwise cause misery, and they just don't see the point?
”I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas!"
Like bravo.
For the sake of making this easier I'm going to just assume you want things further left. So how do you get things further left? By giving Dems consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose they have to go to the center, because that's where elections are won.
So what do you as the informed left voter, that wants things to go further left, do? You vote for the Dems. You give them consistent and overwhelming victories. You don't withhold your vote in protest thinking that the platform is magically going to go left. Because it's not. When dems lose it's going to go into the center. Because that's where you win elections.
And when I say this you want to throw your hands up and say it's all a fantasy. Seems very, very much like you just want to justify your non-voting. I hear this all the time from leftists on this platform, you (you didn't actually say you vote for Dems) and many, many, many people that talk exactly like you.
I'm saying you win elections from the middle.
Wait you're doing it again. You're mixing up disengaged voters and the fringe protest non voters that are waiting for some big extreme left platform and are withholding their vote until that comes. Disengaged voters are by definition disengaged, they are effectively not voting ever. The protest non-voters we are discussing, the ones that are withholding their vote until they get some big extreme left platform are by definition on the fringe. JFC this couldn't be clearer. Pretty much by definition going after these voters means you will lose the central voters. You are trading the central voters (the ones whose vote counts double because it's a vote taken away from the other party and a vote for your party. And remember these are voters that actually exist, that actually vote, they are real). Okay start that again, you are trading the central voters (whose vote counts double) for this Fringe that maybe, possibly, perhaps, hopefully, perchance, could, mayyyyyybbbbbbeeeeeee show up. Do you understand that math? The math does not work out.
Do you want some recent history on that? Look at Hillary Clinton. She just went a little bit of tiny itsy bitsy left with the map room to address climate change. Trump came in and grabbed the center vote. Bam she lost the election. Btw so what happened to the horde of left voters that you think will materialize? They said "not extreme left enough, I will continue to withhold my vote in protest!" Yeah they didn't materialize. So what do you think Biden did? Do you think he or any other politician will court these voters that didn't show up? No they won't, they learnt that it's a losing proposition. They learnt that you win elections from the center, and that's where they went, and that's where they won.
Lmao and you wonder why I talk like you're the non-voting individual to make things easier. See what I said above about you the informed left voter can do.
I don't know if I'm going to keep responding, it takes longer and longer to sort out your confusion, mixing, and refusal to see the actual central voters that actually exist. Everything has been said many times and I'm just repeating myself.