You are legally correct, and morally wrong. If we had ranked choice voting it would be an entirely different situation.
As long as we are trapped in a two party system this is entirely unacceptable and frankly just cause for revolution.
I find it both hilarious and infuriating how supporters of the Democratic establishment make this argument when it suits them, then turn around and chastise third party voters. If our only real choice is to vote for one party or the other, then we either have control over who gets nominated or we live in a thinly veiled oligarchy.
They aren’t morally wrong. Just because something is a fact that they’re stating doesn’t mean they agree with it. Those are the rules of the game and they’re simply stating them.
In the context they are offering a legalistic justification to a moral issue. The Democrats are not the party of democracy if they don't, at a minimum, have an open convention.
Mate, there isn’t enough time or words to even delve into this with you, but that’s not what morality is. Whether you agree with the current rules and legal system or not is not part of your morals when you’re simply stating the options legally.
LOL, yeah. You definitely don't have the words. I'm guessing you haven't studied much moral philosophy. If it helps, I didn't accuse them of being immoral themselves.
This is not the time for electoral reform. This is the time for voting. The only thing that will keep the orange sludge out of the White House at this point is unity.
After this dumpster fire is over, please advocate for reform.
After this dumpster fire is over, please advocate for reform.
...to see why it's not yet the time for reform then, either.
Because at this time a big argument for reform would steal the air out of what is the most critical election since the 1960s.
Because at this time a big argument for reform would steal the air out of what is the most critical election since the 1960s.
Yup. And once this election has passed, there will be a new reason that it's not the time for reform.
I'd be more worried about a Trump administration if I were you.
I was wondering if it would go away, but no. Anything but strict unthinking adherence to neoliberal orthodoxy is still met with accusations of wanting Trump to win.
Not sure what you're implying, but for the record I'm certain that you are anti-Trump.
Nowadays there appears to be no room for simple disagreement. One must always be an agent of some kind.
Another point I should make is that your instinct that Democratic unity is critical to winning this election is exactly on point. However, the idea that reformers are obligated to make all the concessions before debate even begins is establishment standard operating procedure. These are not only the best moments to advance reform, they are the only moments.
We got all the same criticisms in 2020 (and 2016 and 2012...), but I'm pretty confident in saying that the Biden presidency benefited greatly from the pressures brought in 2020. We elected the furthest right Democrat of the past 50 years (by legislative record) and got the most progressive president of the past 50 years.
We also got the same criticisms way back in last week (and last month, and last year) when arguing that Biden should drop out.
All I can say that the country's attention span is tightly limited. Focus on reform right now you will take the air out of a wafer thin possibility of a Dem win. If you fail, how much reform are you going to get from a Trump government? About a cap full of warm piss worth.
Yes, reform is badly needed. Of course it is, but the house is actually on fire right now. Can't you see that? Flames and everything, with the supreme court, project 2025 and a Trump administration about to possibly enact martial law? A protracted conversation about complex administrative, legal and electoral changes - all of which will be challenged and lied about by the other side, will bring tears.
Anyway I'm done with the argument. But if it all goes pearshape, the reform purest will be the ones who will have detailed the tottering election.
Of course I see that! The house is on fire precisely because Democrats have failed to reform. If I might stretch your analogy, there are mad arsonists running around the house throwing molotov cocktails everywhere. Maybe we need to address the question of why these fires keep happening.
You "establishment purists" are insufferable.
Ok, start your reform with all fifty states, because they are the ones who control Federal elections. Yes, reform the red states too. Should be easy. Go ahead, knock yourselves out. Enjoy. Let the house burn to the ground while you run around getting petitions signed which will be ignored by the state assemblies.
Jebus Christo...
What the fuck are you talking about? All I've called for here is an open convention. Fuck, even Obama is behind that. It's going to be a farce since the fix is in for Kamala, but a farce is better than nothing. Fuckin-a it's amazing how some people think demanding a sliver of Democracy from the party literally running on saving Democracy is somehow a radical purist position.
And no, the states don't control primaries. They have authority to do a lot, but almost everything wrong with the Democratic primary system is directly addressable by the Democratic party(s) themselves. But that's pretty irrelevant this cycle because the Democrats already stole that from us. The reform stance is that it be acknowledged and addressed for next time. An open convention is a tiny step in that direction.
By all means, have your convention. Who gives a fuck? Talkfests are what's it about.
I would say you might lead with the convention point up front. "Remorm" as a word is mighty board.
Anyway, chill. This is a long road.
I'm pretty certain that "remorm" isn't a word at all. If you mean "reform" then you might want to look back at who brought that word into the conversation. Keep your mighty board.
I apologise for the spelling. On holidays, glasses not handy.
I keep my mighty board.
The typo wasn't as big an issue as criticizing me for a word choice that you made.
It's all good.
Wait until the Democrats haven't maneuvered us into yet another crisis moment? No, I don't think I'll do that. I'm well past 50 and haven't seen an election yet that wasn't the most existential of my lifetime. Can't wait to see what comes after Trump. I will advocate for reform always and especially in the moments when people are paying attention to politics.
You are legally correct, and morally wrong. If we had ranked choice voting it would be an entirely different situation.
As long as we are trapped in a two party system this is entirely unacceptable and frankly just cause for revolution.
I find it both hilarious and infuriating how supporters of the Democratic establishment make this argument when it suits them, then turn around and chastise third party voters. If our only real choice is to vote for one party or the other, then we either have control over who gets nominated or we live in a thinly veiled oligarchy.
They aren’t morally wrong. Just because something is a fact that they’re stating doesn’t mean they agree with it. Those are the rules of the game and they’re simply stating them.
In the context they are offering a legalistic justification to a moral issue. The Democrats are not the party of democracy if they don't, at a minimum, have an open convention.
Mate, there isn’t enough time or words to even delve into this with you, but that’s not what morality is. Whether you agree with the current rules and legal system or not is not part of your morals when you’re simply stating the options legally.
LOL, yeah. You definitely don't have the words. I'm guessing you haven't studied much moral philosophy. If it helps, I didn't accuse them of being immoral themselves.
This is not the time for electoral reform. This is the time for voting. The only thing that will keep the orange sludge out of the White House at this point is unity.
After this dumpster fire is over, please advocate for reform.
...to see why it's not yet the time for reform then, either.
Because at this time a big argument for reform would steal the air out of what is the most critical election since the 1960s.
Yup. And once this election has passed, there will be a new reason that it's not the time for reform.
I'd be more worried about a Trump administration if I were you.
I was wondering if it would go away, but no. Anything but strict unthinking adherence to neoliberal orthodoxy is still met with accusations of wanting Trump to win.
Not sure what you're implying, but for the record I'm certain that you are anti-Trump.
Nowadays there appears to be no room for simple disagreement. One must always be an agent of some kind.
Another point I should make is that your instinct that Democratic unity is critical to winning this election is exactly on point. However, the idea that reformers are obligated to make all the concessions before debate even begins is establishment standard operating procedure. These are not only the best moments to advance reform, they are the only moments.
We got all the same criticisms in 2020 (and 2016 and 2012...), but I'm pretty confident in saying that the Biden presidency benefited greatly from the pressures brought in 2020. We elected the furthest right Democrat of the past 50 years (by legislative record) and got the most progressive president of the past 50 years.
We also got the same criticisms way back in last week (and last month, and last year) when arguing that Biden should drop out.
All I can say that the country's attention span is tightly limited. Focus on reform right now you will take the air out of a wafer thin possibility of a Dem win. If you fail, how much reform are you going to get from a Trump government? About a cap full of warm piss worth.
Yes, reform is badly needed. Of course it is, but the house is actually on fire right now. Can't you see that? Flames and everything, with the supreme court, project 2025 and a Trump administration about to possibly enact martial law? A protracted conversation about complex administrative, legal and electoral changes - all of which will be challenged and lied about by the other side, will bring tears.
Anyway I'm done with the argument. But if it all goes pearshape, the reform purest will be the ones who will have detailed the tottering election.
Of course I see that! The house is on fire precisely because Democrats have failed to reform. If I might stretch your analogy, there are mad arsonists running around the house throwing molotov cocktails everywhere. Maybe we need to address the question of why these fires keep happening.
You "establishment purists" are insufferable.
Ok, start your reform with all fifty states, because they are the ones who control Federal elections. Yes, reform the red states too. Should be easy. Go ahead, knock yourselves out. Enjoy. Let the house burn to the ground while you run around getting petitions signed which will be ignored by the state assemblies.
Jebus Christo...
What the fuck are you talking about? All I've called for here is an open convention. Fuck, even Obama is behind that. It's going to be a farce since the fix is in for Kamala, but a farce is better than nothing. Fuckin-a it's amazing how some people think demanding a sliver of Democracy from the party literally running on saving Democracy is somehow a radical purist position.
And no, the states don't control primaries. They have authority to do a lot, but almost everything wrong with the Democratic primary system is directly addressable by the Democratic party(s) themselves. But that's pretty irrelevant this cycle because the Democrats already stole that from us. The reform stance is that it be acknowledged and addressed for next time. An open convention is a tiny step in that direction.
By all means, have your convention. Who gives a fuck? Talkfests are what's it about.
I would say you might lead with the convention point up front. "Remorm" as a word is mighty board.
Anyway, chill. This is a long road.
I'm pretty certain that "remorm" isn't a word at all. If you mean "reform" then you might want to look back at who brought that word into the conversation. Keep your mighty board.
I apologise for the spelling. On holidays, glasses not handy.
I keep my mighty board.
The typo wasn't as big an issue as criticizing me for a word choice that you made.
It's all good.
Wait until the Democrats haven't maneuvered us into yet another crisis moment? No, I don't think I'll do that. I'm well past 50 and haven't seen an election yet that wasn't the most existential of my lifetime. Can't wait to see what comes after Trump. I will advocate for reform always and especially in the moments when people are paying attention to politics.