World chess federation bars transgender women from competing in women's events
apnews.com
The world’s top chess federation has ruled that transgender women cannot compete in its official events for females until an assessment of gender change is made by its officials.
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They are already getting ready to drag their feet. The other policies announced here aren't much better. In particular:
There's no reason for that. What does transitioning have to do with past titles. It all reeks of transphobia.
It's just a technicality. The gendered leagues don't need to exist in the first place. But since they do, cleaving to the rules helps maintain the sense of fairness for all the cis folks. Say, if someone was a teen champion, they would no longer be the teen champion once they aged past their teen years. They become a former teen champion.
I agree it's fundamentally rooted in transphobia, it's literally a compromise with it. But I find that preferable to an outright ban of even acknowledging transition in the first place.
And yea, we'll have to see how they handle it. I definitely noticed them opening the door for foot dragging. It'll ultimately be up to whoever is actually in charge of their investigative wing though. If they actually are fair about it, this could be a step forward.
The gendered leagues exist to promote women in chess. They need to do this because women have historically been discriminated against. These new rules feel like they are asking trans women to prove they are oppressed enough to deserve to play in women's leagues.
Some of the requirements for the change in status is problematic as well.
That is a hard requirement to meet in large chunks of the world. Many countries don't legally recognize gender change so it may be quite literally impossible to comply with "national laws and regulations." There's some carve out for asylum and refugee status. But it is possible to be a trans woman in a country, not be able to legally change your gender, and not feel unsafe enough to seek asylum.
I'm reading more on the titles now. So from the actual FIDE document:
And from what [FIDE titles]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_titles) are on Wikipedia. It seems there is an underlying misogyny in how women's titles work. It seems to me the proper solution is to get rid of the separate title requirements.
Ooh, that's clever. They ducked out of having to set their own criteria.
That definitely changes things somewhat. I was assuming the investigation would involve your doctor providing testimony, not whatever hoops your local jurisdiction may or may not have in place.
I suppose women's leagues had more value in the past than they do now, I don't see any problems with just getting rid of them at this point. But this could just be my western perspective speaking. They might still have great value in other parts of the world.
It now sounds like they just ducked the issue though, for the most part. Not setting their own criteria or using the criteria of an international medical association was a little underhanded. Just because the local laws vary from place to place shouldn't mean trans folks from some places can't win chess tournaments anymore.
Honestly that surprises me a lot less though. Chess is unusually popular with intellectual-leaning bigots for some reason, it's a bit of a refuge for racism sometimes. Makes me really glad Magnus is the top player these days, he's a bit more of a modern guy.
I think women's leagues have their place still. Or some kind of system to encourage more women into chess. There's currently 15.7k men with titles and only 4k women with titles. Until those numbers get closer I would want to see some kind of action taken.
If you want to get radical with women's league you can just have the requirement for them to declare that you are a woman. It can quite literally be a checkbox on a forum when registering. Social pressure will take care of most of the issues. The edge case of men regesterioin bad faith can be handled on a case by case basis.
We really do need some better way to catch cis folks mis-registering in bad faith. It'd resolve some issues around the whole broader battle.
We could just do blood tests. Check for a wider variety of steroids in professional sports while we're at it. Then, your hormone levels would classify you, not anything you could say or choose.
Invasive as all hell though.
No we don't and no it wouldn't, bigots are just going to come up with the next excuse for their bigotry while we're subjecting innocent people to things that are (as you aptly put it) invasive as all hell
Yeah, but otherwise they're just going to keep shutting it down with accusations of cheating. You can't just hand wave that away, it won't go away. It needs to be dealt with systematically, eventually.
Hand waving away bigoted nonsense is exactly how you make it go away, it's the only way it goes away. If you give these people an inch they're just going to crow about how that proves they were right all along about everything and why we have to give in to their next set of demands.
I disagree whole heartedly that that makes it go away. If that worked, bigoted nonsense would have gone away by now.
People's ability to create arguments that influence other, neutral parties is far more powerful than the rational truth, and needs to be addressed in some way.
I genuinely have no idea what period in history you could be basing that on
We already had that discussion and now the overwhelming majority of doctors and researchers understand trans people are people and gender affirming healthcare is good healthcare. If you're neutral at this point you're at best embarrassingly ignorant and most likely just a bigot.
I think that's a little out of touch with different American sub-cultures, which do not all share the same values. They certainly do not necessarily share our faith in modern, evidence-based methods. While that may be embarrassing to you, embarrassment is a cultural phenomenon. They clearly feel no embarrassment.
We tried to shove bigotry under the rug for huge chunks of the past century, just ignoring things like neo-Nazism in the hopes they would go away. They have strengthened instead.
The fact of the matter is the cheating argument is plausible, and that makes it compelling. It's their only one. That makes ignoring it unwise, when it could be simply dealt with.
If they don't believe in empirical evidence and the scientific method then there is less than nothing to be gained from debating them, it will set things back for people who aren't engaged in this issue to see them being taken seriously like there is any real debate here.
I feel pretty strongly that you're
ignoringforgetting the Nazi element of this right now with this insistence on taking their bullshit arguments seriouslyThe fact of the matter is that it is not plausible and
youreiterating that it is doesn't make it so.e; I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt that you genuinely mean well here and are just mistaken, tried to adjust the language to better reflect that
So you think we should "maintain a sense of fairness for cis folks" at the expense of creating actual unfairness towards trans and nonbinary folks? Since it's been shown (cis) women fare better against men when neither knows the other's sex, wouldn't it be fairer to simply hide the combatants from one another? Then it would be pure chess.
Okay lib, let's see how "compromise" works for ya. Easy to say when your cis.
"You need to compromise on your requests for equal treatment and basic human dignity, and if you don't you're being the unreasonable one" /s
Amazing and heartbreaking how many people honestly expect trans people to live like that
Some people want the whole world. Others just want to see improvement.
I'm just saying if your compromise involves throwing a minority under the bus, your just a speedbump on the road to fascism.
Eh. Just because some compromise is bad does not mean all compromises are bad. Every situation is unique, and it's not like compromise is murder or something.
Democracy outranks human rights. The human rights were put there in the first place by the democracy, and can be amended by it as well. It completely outranks them, unless you believe they are "god-given" or something.
This is why compromise within your own political system, in certain cases, retains value. If your faction is not strong enough, as trans folks in international chess probably aren't, then it's a tacit acknowledgement of your right to exist.
Assuming the previous position was an outright ban, anyway. I don't actually know if it was or not.
Just have to chime in here.
Human rights are fundamental and intrinsic. They can't be "outranked."
Legislating for them and enforcing them is due to institutions such as governments (and in an international context the ICC if, say, the government has become genocidal).
Right. Which is why they're doing the uyghurs so much good right now. Those intrinsic rights sure are protecting them.
Point being, they're only intrinsic because we say so.
I think I see what's going wrong in this conversation.
By definition, "rights" can be legal, social, or ethical.
To you, they are only a legal thing and if they don't exist in law or custom, then to you they don't exist.
But to me, (and others here) they also have an ethical dimension and exist as an ethical value independent of the legal or social useage.
Saying ethics depend on laws and customs would be moral relativism (which is a tricky thing to hold for most people, because of the implications around stuff like child rape and murder being ok if everyone was doing it).
I agree. I explicitly said I'm only referring to which one is functionally more powerful.
I would point to history though, to show thousands of years where rape and child murder were considered just fine, in certain circumstances. You had to be conquering a city or something, but then it wasn't too unusual to murder and sell the population into slavery.
Ethics, in its entirety, is also one of our creations. We all tacitly agree to something of a unified code of ethics that we follow to keep our societies running smoothly. This code, unless it was given by some divine structure, though, remains one of our constructions, through whatever governmental/organizational structure we exist in.
Just curious, are you pointing to history because you are adhering to moral relativism (i.e you think that doing those things was just fine because so many people thought it was)?
No, I am not describing my personal beliefs, merely arguing what I perceive to be an objective position. I think the idea that right and wrong can exist outside of people's judgements is a little silly, honestly. I am not a philosopher though, admittedly.
I'm actually not trying to argue with you, @Candelestine, just trying to work out what your perceived "objective position" is so I can understand you. It does kind of sound like moral relativism if you think "wrong" is only a construct.
If that's the case, I can see why you don't believe in inalienable human rights.
Those Uyghurs had and have rights whether the Chinese government knows it or not. Bad things happening doesn't make those things suddenly not-bad.
The sky is only blue because we decided on the word "blue" for that frequency of light, and there's plenty of other things that are the way they are just because we say so.
And if this isn't just a "I just don't think 'rights' are the correct word" semantic argument for you here, please refer back to the first two sentences.
I don't recall any part of the bill of rights saying "this doesn't apply in cases where it's unpopular"
The whole thing was put there via voting. It's the first ten amendments to the constitution.
It's the law of the land. Democracy does not mean you can ignore laws you disagree with.
I mean, a) no, a whole ass war's worth of violence was a necessary element, b) we don't let a simple majority vote change those fundamental human rights, we make amending our constitution very difficult and put important stuff in there that probably shouldn't be changed for a reason
Well, yea, the war put the voting system in place. After some initial hiccups getting started, the bill of rights was one of the first things voted on.
Just because the amendment process is difficult does not make it undemocratic. Note, I'm trying to be objective here, not say that one is more valuable or important than another. Simply that one is functionally more powerful.