Info dump identification/advice
Noting I'm an aspiring author, not published, and started writing for myself at the age of 13, but I want to share it now. This is going to be an infodump in itself for background and details.... Virtually all writing guides say to avoid info-dumping and most say the same thing about how to fix it if not avoid, but I'm struggling and just want to talk it out here... A bit of background on the books- I've been working on a set of scifi novels for over a decade (with breaks due to life) and it's quite a busy story- lots of happenings among multiple races of people with the expected tech, but with heavy emphasis on immersive characters with deep development and relationships, all in a fleshed-out galaxy with factions, governments, and struggles of such. Pretty standard scifi stuff- that's all defined before I run into my troubles....
At one point around 400 pages, tramatic events happen to group A: the 6 or so people the audience has come to know. After events, group A is "saved" by new characters in group B. These two groups have never met (one side knew of the other) but their situations in the prior 400 pages heavily impact each other. The reader doesn't know group B exists either.
I now have 24 [Libre office doc] pages of 14 people sitting around a table, talking- is this an "info dump", or is it just a really long spot of dialogue (that I still need to trim/move parts of regardless)? They discuss: -coming to terms with a character's past -group A inquiring on the motives of group B with suspicion -group A learning that group B was the reason why events happened the way they did before this( this is quite a few pages by itself, somewhat suspensful with personal connections) -Group B formally and dramatically asking for group A's help -group A breaking to talk shortly amongst themselves and agree to trust and work with group B -Group B asking for information they know group A has; they decide to share limited info -a check on the next objective that group A had planned out since page 100 -a tiny bit of planning for next objective -technical jargon (1 page max)
I'm questioning if this is an info dump or not because it doesn't seem to tick the boxes: It's 90% dialogue that is all relevent to the plot and characters: it explains or adds on to things that the audience saw happen, but didn't understand why it did (and they and group A wouldn't be able to know if not told) and heavily impacted or explained the story prior (coincidences), character interactions and a bit of development... it's not worldbuilding, backstory, or inner or outer monologues (I've completely avoided "as you know, Bob").
Why I'm on the fence: A lot happens in the 400 pages prior but I have no other deep info dumps. It's just 14 people bascially getting to know and understand each other, and get up to speed on how they're going to work together to save the galaxy (this is what makes me think it IS an infodump; it explains what has already happened but from a different POV, and will help the reader understand a little better as we move on- conspiracy stuff yay).
I still feel 24 pages is just too long for a meeting and it's a dump no matter, but what do you all feel I might be able to cut from the above list? Any general thoughts on info dumps or dialogue? Any feedback in general? I really like writing and need critiques since I'm becoming adamant to publish.
I'm not exactly an expert writer, so please take this with a huge grain of salt, but I think the "no info-dump" rule applies more in the "show, don't tell" sense more than in the "all action, no dialogue" sense.
Having said that, 14 pages of all talking sounds like a lot if there's nothing happening. If the plot is still progressing, dialogue can still be quite engaging (see Community's "Cooperative Polygraphy" for a great example of an all-dialogue episode that is engaging and keeps the plot moving).
Without reading the whole book, it's hard for Internet strangers to give good advice on this, so all I can suggest you stay objective and really look at if your 14-page conversation is still engaging and keeps everything moving.
I would also advise checking with the Writing community on Beehaw (!writing@beehaw.org) for more advice.
I really unloaded so I apprciate your time. I'm still real new to Beehaw too, so on to your links and finding if there's a good way to link this over to !writing, ha.
I'm not an expert writer either, just a hobbyist who has written a lot.
Dialogue in itself isn't an info-dump, but where it sounds like you might stray into it is if you have all this dialogue that's basically explaining how Group B influenced the whole plot of the story. For a plot that the reader has already read, this might be a bit repetitive, although it very much depends on how the information is presented. Info-dumping isn't only relating to worldbuilding, backstories, and inner and outer monologues. It can also include telling/explaining the plot to the reader.
My suggestion would be that it might be more effective to sprinkle hints through the earlier events in the book, foreshadowing the existence of Group B, so that when they finally arrive at page 400, you can skip all the explanation of how every plot event was influenced by them, leaving just a dramatic reveal of "it was Group B behind X, Y, and Z all along!" If you have the foreshadowing done right, you wouldn't need a big explanation of Group B's involvement, because it'll be hinted at throughout the whole story. Readers should be able to look at the Group B reveal, tie it back to the previous events, and realise in hindsight that the information about Group B's involvement was there all along. Then they'll go "Oh, that was cool! It all makes sense now!", which is an amazing experience for a reader.
I'm also inclined to say that you likely don't need the sections relating to Group B asking for Group A's information (the readers presumably already know this information because they learned it when Group A did), or the subsequent sharing of information. Sometimes telling is actually okay, when it's to avoid repeating something that has already been shown in depth. Telling along the lines of "Group A and Group B shared information with each other" allows the readers to know that all the characters from both groups now have all the information they need, without needing to "show" the conversation of Group A explaining everything to Group B. For the same reason, you want to avoid repeating Group A's plan, which they've been working on since page 100, to Group B. It's okay to "tell" here and make it clear that everybody is up to speed on the plan, without repeating what the audience already knows.
If you limit the meeting between Group A and Group B to things that are new to the readers, you'll likely end up with a much shorter section of dialogue, which will probably have a stronger pace as a result. Based on your summary of the 24 pages, my feeling is the most important parts are the coming to terms with the character's past (others might disagree, but I love some good emotional impact from a character discovering something new about themselves - this gets glossed over far too often in far too many stories), Group A's suspicions about Group B's motives, dramatic reveal that Group B were behind Plot Elements X Y Z, Group B asking for help, and potentially the update to the plan now that Group B are involved (depending on how significantly their involvement changes the plan.)
I hope this helps. It sounds like you've put a lot of hard work and passion into this project, and 400 pages is a really impressive achievement. So no matter whether you get it published or not, you still created something meaningful. 🙂
Wow thank you! :D I often enough feel silly for the amount of hobby time I've put in without any real thought into making anything of it. But this brought a lot of insight. Thanks so much for your time!
I haven't written fiction in a long time, but what you're describing is exactly an info dump. "Show, don't tell" comes to mind. Have you considered chopping these books up into much smaller bits, polishing those up and publishing them one by one? The reaction you get would let you know if you're on the right track.
Thank you. It's still a hobby under others and job, so I'll need to take more care if I want to be taken seriously.