I explained why it shouldn't be free. We would have to limit the number of students like the rest of the world does to control the cost. We would close it off to only the brightest and most people would be excluded from a college education.
That is how most countries handle college. Only the best get to go and the rest go to trade school or just work other jobs. I want people here to have the chance to better themselves. That is the American dream.
Only the best get to go and the rest go to trade school or just work other jobs. I want people here to have the chance to better themselves. That is the American dream.
But they would have the chance to better themselves, by having good enough scores to get in. That's what "chance" means. What you're really suggesting is that everybody be guaranteed college, which is hardly the same thing.
More to the point, sending everybody to college is a waste and does a disservice both to society and the less-college-inclined individuals who otherwise wouldn't have gone. We need more people learning actual useful skills like plumbing and welding and whatnot, and we don't need them wasting years of their life earning a bullshit diploma-mill* bachelor's degree that they'll never use and would only serve to inflate the requirements for job applications.
Besides, if you want the baseline level of education to change from K-12 to K-16, just say that instead.
(* And they are bullshit diploma mills, because if the people we're talking about were capable of completing a rigorous curriculum, they'd have succeeded under the merit-based system you're decrying to begin with.)
I am suggesting no such thing. I have never suggested guaranteed college for anyone. What I have said is college should be affordable and available. You may be confusing me with the previous person who wants free college for everyone. I don't support that.
I'm not confusing anything. You are advocating that people be given "the chance to better themselves," but apparently failing to understand that a free college system with admissions limited by merit accomplishes exactly that: to give everyone a chance to show sufficient merit to get in!
By rejecting a merit-based system, you're actually advocating that everybody be able to go to college even despite failing their "chance," which sure sounds like a guarantee to me!
I have never advocated for free college. I am not sure why you keep saying that. I said college should be affordable. I’ve clearly stated I do not think it should be free.
Once again I never said guaranteed but available. That’s how I system works now. We have community colleges, colleges and universities.
People can go through the system based on their ability.
In many countries If they miss a window, that’s it. We don’t have that here and it’s a good thing.
I have never advocated for free college. I am not sure why you keep saying that.
I'm not saying that. You're the one trying to put words in my mouth, not the other way around. If you think that's incorrect, prove it by quoting me.
Once again I never said guaranteed but available. That’s how I system works now. We have community colleges, colleges and universities.
Fine; we'll pretend for a moment that non-merit-based "availability" is somehow different from a "guarantee" of admission. Either way, it's way more misguided and harmful to society than free college with limited admissions based solely on merit!
Again, having everybody get a college degree just for the sake of inflating expectations such that even shitty sales-clerk-type jobs require them as a baseline for consideration does nobody any fucking good! Neither society, nor the degree-holding sales clerks themselves. So what do you hope to accomplish by it?
The people who can't get in to college in a limited-admission merit-based system are precisely the ones who are better off not going. This ridiculous "everybody needs to go to college" expectation has created an entire generation of people who are screwed because they wasted half a decade getting useless degrees only to end up with barely mediocre jobs anyway, when they would have been BOTH HAPPIER AND MORE SUCCESSFUL doing the "blue collar" work the dipshit high school guidance counselors warned them away from!
A lot of the borderline-suicidal sales clerks in this thread should've become welders etc., but didn't because of attitudes like yours.
P.S.: The notion that people learning a blue-collar skilled trade is somehow incompatible with them "hav[ing] the chance to better themselves" is ridiculously classist. You should be ashamed of yourself for that.
You keep stating things I never said.
I said college should be available and you switch to merit. I’ve never said merit shouldn’t be favored in.
Since I never advocated for everyone to having a degree. I’m not sure why you’re asking me. Sounds like if you’d actually read what I said, you’d realize you’re repeating what I said.
What I said is we need to have more trade schools to allow people to become carpenters and plumbers.
"Canada’s policies regarding student loans are similar to those in the US but injected with a small dose of compassion and critical thinking. The federal government provides up to 60 percent of a student’s tuition through the Canadian Student Loan Program (CSLP), while private lenders pick up the rest of the bill. All student loan payments are suspended until a student graduates and earns at least 25,000 CAD annually."
That’s similar to ours. You don’t pay until you’re done. We don’t have a lower income range but 25k isn’t very much money. That’s below minimum wage in Canada.
College should be affordable and available. It used to be college kids word during the summer to pay their expenses during the college year. I don't think that is feasible nowadays.
I also think we need more trade schools. Not everyone needs a degree. We need plumbers, electricians, etc as well.
I explained why it shouldn't be free. We would have to limit the number of students like the rest of the world does to control the cost. We would close it off to only the brightest and most people would be excluded from a college education. That is how most countries handle college. Only the best get to go and the rest go to trade school or just work other jobs. I want people here to have the chance to better themselves. That is the American dream.
But they would have the chance to better themselves, by having good enough scores to get in. That's what "chance" means. What you're really suggesting is that everybody be guaranteed college, which is hardly the same thing.
More to the point, sending everybody to college is a waste and does a disservice both to society and the less-college-inclined individuals who otherwise wouldn't have gone. We need more people learning actual useful skills like plumbing and welding and whatnot, and we don't need them wasting years of their life earning a bullshit diploma-mill* bachelor's degree that they'll never use and would only serve to inflate the requirements for job applications.
Besides, if you want the baseline level of education to change from K-12 to K-16, just say that instead.
(* And they are bullshit diploma mills, because if the people we're talking about were capable of completing a rigorous curriculum, they'd have succeeded under the merit-based system you're decrying to begin with.)
I am suggesting no such thing. I have never suggested guaranteed college for anyone. What I have said is college should be affordable and available. You may be confusing me with the previous person who wants free college for everyone. I don't support that.
I'm not confusing anything. You are advocating that people be given "the chance to better themselves," but apparently failing to understand that a free college system with admissions limited by merit accomplishes exactly that: to give everyone a chance to show sufficient merit to get in!
By rejecting a merit-based system, you're actually advocating that everybody be able to go to college even despite failing their "chance," which sure sounds like a guarantee to me!
I have never advocated for free college. I am not sure why you keep saying that. I said college should be affordable. I’ve clearly stated I do not think it should be free.
Once again I never said guaranteed but available. That’s how I system works now. We have community colleges, colleges and universities.
People can go through the system based on their ability.
In many countries If they miss a window, that’s it. We don’t have that here and it’s a good thing.
I'm not saying that. You're the one trying to put words in my mouth, not the other way around. If you think that's incorrect, prove it by quoting me.
Fine; we'll pretend for a moment that non-merit-based "availability" is somehow different from a "guarantee" of admission. Either way, it's way more misguided and harmful to society than free college with limited admissions based solely on merit!
Again, having everybody get a college degree just for the sake of inflating expectations such that even shitty sales-clerk-type jobs require them as a baseline for consideration does nobody any fucking good! Neither society, nor the degree-holding sales clerks themselves. So what do you hope to accomplish by it?
The people who can't get in to college in a limited-admission merit-based system are precisely the ones who are better off not going. This ridiculous "everybody needs to go to college" expectation has created an entire generation of people who are screwed because they wasted half a decade getting useless degrees only to end up with barely mediocre jobs anyway, when they would have been BOTH HAPPIER AND MORE SUCCESSFUL doing the "blue collar" work the dipshit high school guidance counselors warned them away from!
A lot of the borderline-suicidal sales clerks in this thread should've become welders etc., but didn't because of attitudes like yours.
P.S.: The notion that people learning a blue-collar skilled trade is somehow incompatible with them "hav[ing] the chance to better themselves" is ridiculously classist. You should be ashamed of yourself for that.
You keep stating things I never said.
I said college should be available and you switch to merit. I’ve never said merit shouldn’t be favored in.
Since I never advocated for everyone to having a degree. I’m not sure why you’re asking me. Sounds like if you’d actually read what I said, you’d realize you’re repeating what I said.
What I said is we need to have more trade schools to allow people to become carpenters and plumbers.
@wintermute_oregon
Why would we have to limit the number of students?
edit to add -- If businesses are paying ALL education costs there's no reasons whatsoever to limit education.
Then why isn’t anyone else in the world doing it ? Because unit isn’t cost effective.
Also it isn’t the role of a business to pay for everything you want. That would bankrupt most companies overnight.
@wintermute_oregon
There are actually 24 countries that have free college education.
https://financesonline.com/free-college-education-statistics/
They don’t offer it to everyone. I’ve already addressed that. They control the numbers by standards. Something we don’t do in America.
A good example is Sweden. Their students come out owing almost as much as the average American.
https://www.bustedcubicle.com/advocacy/student-debt#:~:text=While%20Swedish%20universities%20don't,the%20American%20figure%20of%20%2437%2C400.
@wintermute_oregon
Then do what Canada does.
It's not that hard to find a better way than what America does now.
Canada is similar to us.
https://blog.gitnux.com/student-debt-in-canada-statistics/#:~:text=As%20of%202021%2C%20the%20average,Canadian%20students%20face%20upon%20graduation.
28k vs 37k with a us worker may more than the Canadian and paying less in taxes. So it’s a wash
@wintermute_oregon
The first link you posted says
"Canada’s policies regarding student loans are similar to those in the US but injected with a small dose of compassion and critical thinking. The federal government provides up to 60 percent of a student’s tuition through the Canadian Student Loan Program (CSLP), while private lenders pick up the rest of the bill. All student loan payments are suspended until a student graduates and earns at least 25,000 CAD annually."
https://www.bustedcubicle.com/advocacy/student-debt
That’s similar to ours. You don’t pay until you’re done. We don’t have a lower income range but 25k isn’t very much money. That’s below minimum wage in Canada.
@wintermute_oregon
Canada does not have a national minimum wage.
I know that because I live here.
edit to add -- ... and my income last year was less than $15k.
You have a minimum wage per province, correct?
https://www.nerdwallet.com/ca/personal-finance/canada-minmimum-wage-explained#:~:text=Here%E2%80%99s%20a%20look%20at%20current%20provincial%20and%20territorial,by%20April%202024%29.%208%20Nunavut%3A%20%2416.00.%20More%20items
College should be affordable and available. It used to be college kids word during the summer to pay their expenses during the college year. I don't think that is feasible nowadays.
I also think we need more trade schools. Not everyone needs a degree. We need plumbers, electricians, etc as well.
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