Fedora is like it or not one of the most influential and important Distros out there.
Fedora is and will always be cutting edge. They early adopt projects and technologies that absolutely become the standard.
No other distro has this much influence. SystemD, Pipe wire, and other such projects are the norm because Fedora pushed it.
And like it or not, Fedora will make this move very soon with Wayland. Wayland is our inevitable future, like it or not.
I don't see Arch, Debian, and others pushing things like this, but rather falling in line with Fedora.
Fedora is and will always be cuttingleading edge.
Fixed that for you ;) .
That's why we should stop using them. If they have zero users, they'll eventually stop the Fedora project and the Community can keep pace with Debian or openSuse. openSuse can easily step into Fedora and Red Hat's shoes.
Instead of trying to tear down things that work, try building up the distros that don't.
But that sounds like work. It's a lot easier to shit on other people's volunteer efforts than to actually contribute anything constructive yourself.
You need to understand that Red Hat/Fedora regards the Linux Community as "free loaders". That's how they designed described anyone wanting access to Red Hat Server source code.
That's what they think of you and me and all the great developers who make a lot of the software we use, often in their free time and at no cost.
Most of the distros and software you use on Linux is made and maintained by people who are not paid but do it for the love of Libre open source freedom loving computing for all.
That is the FOSS way. Red Hat/Fedora do not share this view. They see us all as free loaders.
If all the great Devs who contribute so much to GNU/Linux had that attitude, you'd literally have no free distro or apps.
That means no poor third world person would ever have access to an operating system or pc. Only us well off people in the developed world. That's anti FOSS.
Don't support ass hats like Red Hat/Fedora who stand against that.
And now we see Canonical also being ass hats but only by including telemetry in Ubuntu, but forcing snaps on end users, blocking flatpak out of the box (you can still install it yourself but newbies won't know this) and they are aiming to eventually make Ubuntu snap only.
Not to mention they worked with Microsoft to make "Linux subsystem for Windows" which is a real insult to Linux and FOSS.
Use Debian and other Community based distros which have zero corporate funding or involvement and are 100% by the people for the people
If they have zero users, they’ll eventually stop the Fedora project
That would be a very sad loss.
No. It's what they deserve for screwing over the community. Let them pay for beta testers instead of getting free beta testing from the community
Try not to believe everything you read by random people online, Red Hat pays people to work on Fedora, you have no idea what you're talking about.
I know they pay Fedora work because most of the employees ARE full time Red Hat employees.
Hence my point that the user is the free beta tester for Enterprise software.
Stop being a free beta tester for a Mega Corp that hates the Linux Community.
Rather use Debian, Arch or another Community developed OS.
First of all you've swallowed the myth that Fedora users are beta testing for Enterprise software. That said discouraging people from voluntarily beta testing is bad for the community and fundamentally against the spirit of open source.
As a long-time Fedora user I think Red Hat's backing is good for Fedora because it means they have a solid source of funding. Apart from the resources that gives them, that way they can be entirely user-centric and not be tempted to sell user data, run ads or anything else against the users' interests.
There's a lot of hearsay going on around Red Hat at the moment, some of it has grains of truth, some of it has been distorted beyond fact, I'm sorry that you're a victim of it.
Beta testing is great. Just not when it's for Red Hat(Fedora), Canonical, Microsoft (WSL) or any other Greedy Corp. when they are requesting this in the spirit of open source.
Rather beta test for Debian
Not how open source works, you don't get to choose who benefits from it, it's for anyone who wants to use it. Ubuntu is downstream of Debian is it not?
Well Red Hat put up a paywall so that only those who they choose, can get the code. That's the issue. Then they justified it by calling users who want the code "free loaders". That's typical proprietary speak, it has no place in open source.
Ubuntu is downstream of Debian. But canonical have taken it, forced snaps on users, forced opt out telemetry in users and removed default flatpak support. All very user hostile moves.
Hence I'm calling the community to show these corps we don't need them and community distros have everything we need while protecting user freedom.
Remember what I said about hearsay? Everything in Fedora is FOSS, everything in RHEL is also FOSS (because it's in CentOS Stream). All the code is released, not behind a "paywall". All that Red Hat have done is make it more difficult for companies to sell a 1:1 "bug for bug compatible" RHEL clone - those are the "free loaders" being spoken of and who they're targeting, not the Linux community, it's people like Oracle (who incidentally are also the ones fanning the flames of this drama).
I'm no fan of Canonical, but even with your description you're really sensationalising things there as well. The point is by supporting Debian you're inadvertently supporting Canonical - I don't think that's a problem myself but it seems you have double standards.
I would like to quote for you from Gnu.org, Richard Stallman's organization that invented the idea of free software. Here he explains what that means. I'll link to the full webpage below.
"Actually, we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can.** If a license does not permit users to make copies and sell them, it is a nonfree license.** If this seems surprising to you, please read on.
The word “free” has two legitimate general meanings; it can refer either to freedom or to price. When we speak of “free software,” we're talking about freedom, not price. (Think of “free speech,” not “free beer.”) Specifically, it means that a user is free to run the program, study and change the program, and redistribute the program with or without changes."
Why would this be a good thing at all? One of the main goals of the ecosystem is to have multiple choices, and as others in this thread has mentioned, Fedoras made significant progress for the adoption of Linux as a whole
Because you'd be helping Community distros get better, as well as financially, instead of supporting corporations that use you as beta testers to improve their paid corporate product and then screw you over when you want access to the server code.
I still don’t see how having the choice is a bad thing. If you don’t like Red Hats position, then don’t use Fedora. For those that believe using Fedora will help better the Open Source ecosystem, they have the ability to do so.
Getting rid of a choice completely because you don’t agree with a position in a nuanced conversation seems childish
I'm not saying it will be banned, you can still use it but I'm calling the community to return to community distros like Debian who are 100% libre and user freedom respecting.. Plus there many dedicated developers and other volunteers who support this out of love for FOSS and the principles of free computing for all.
That's not childish. It's a call to get back to our roots. Use Community distros, volunteer your time if you have the skills they need, make a money donation to thank them and help the project keep going. That's how FOSS is supposed to work.
By the Community, for the Community 💪
OpenSuse has a very well defined pipeline:
Tumbleweed -> Leap (maybe Slowroll) -> SLE.
OpenSuse is not going to break new ground. It's all about OBS and testing software before it hits their Paid Enterprise offerings. And they have almost a fully automated procedure for this. OpenSuse is not going to push Wayland only nor what will become the standard. It's not in their ethos. OpenSuse is there to build SLE's next release.
Debian being cutting edge?! Never. Debian is Debian, very slow to adopt anything. Debian is about offering a very stable release schedule. Debian will never push the ecosystem forward, it's not Debian's goal. You want a reliable system that just works? Debian is inarguably the king.
Agree 100%. And both are 100% Community. openSuse is privately owned and supported by a massive Community.
Debian is perfect for reliability (although opensuse is very reliable) who don't need the latest and don't like installing updates all the time. 100% Community based.
Two fantastic, shining examples of the power of Community supported software 💪
Fedora is like it or not one of the most influential and important Distros out there.
Fedora is and will always be cutting edge. They early adopt projects and technologies that absolutely become the standard.
No other distro has this much influence. SystemD, Pipe wire, and other such projects are the norm because Fedora pushed it.
And like it or not, Fedora will make this move very soon with Wayland. Wayland is our inevitable future, like it or not.
I don't see Arch, Debian, and others pushing things like this, but rather falling in line with Fedora.
Fixed that for you ;) .
That's why we should stop using them. If they have zero users, they'll eventually stop the Fedora project and the Community can keep pace with Debian or openSuse. openSuse can easily step into Fedora and Red Hat's shoes.
Instead of trying to tear down things that work, try building up the distros that don't.
But that sounds like work. It's a lot easier to shit on other people's volunteer efforts than to actually contribute anything constructive yourself.
You need to understand that Red Hat/Fedora regards the Linux Community as "free loaders". That's how they designed described anyone wanting access to Red Hat Server source code.
That's what they think of you and me and all the great developers who make a lot of the software we use, often in their free time and at no cost.
Most of the distros and software you use on Linux is made and maintained by people who are not paid but do it for the love of Libre open source freedom loving computing for all.
That is the FOSS way. Red Hat/Fedora do not share this view. They see us all as free loaders.
If all the great Devs who contribute so much to GNU/Linux had that attitude, you'd literally have no free distro or apps.
That means no poor third world person would ever have access to an operating system or pc. Only us well off people in the developed world. That's anti FOSS.
Don't support ass hats like Red Hat/Fedora who stand against that.
And now we see Canonical also being ass hats but only by including telemetry in Ubuntu, but forcing snaps on end users, blocking flatpak out of the box (you can still install it yourself but newbies won't know this) and they are aiming to eventually make Ubuntu snap only. Not to mention they worked with Microsoft to make "Linux subsystem for Windows" which is a real insult to Linux and FOSS.
Use Debian and other Community based distros which have zero corporate funding or involvement and are 100% by the people for the people
That would be a very sad loss.
No. It's what they deserve for screwing over the community. Let them pay for beta testers instead of getting free beta testing from the community
Try not to believe everything you read by random people online, Red Hat pays people to work on Fedora, you have no idea what you're talking about.
I know they pay Fedora work because most of the employees ARE full time Red Hat employees.
Hence my point that the user is the free beta tester for Enterprise software.
Stop being a free beta tester for a Mega Corp that hates the Linux Community. Rather use Debian, Arch or another Community developed OS.
First of all you've swallowed the myth that Fedora users are beta testing for Enterprise software. That said discouraging people from voluntarily beta testing is bad for the community and fundamentally against the spirit of open source.
As a long-time Fedora user I think Red Hat's backing is good for Fedora because it means they have a solid source of funding. Apart from the resources that gives them, that way they can be entirely user-centric and not be tempted to sell user data, run ads or anything else against the users' interests.
There's a lot of hearsay going on around Red Hat at the moment, some of it has grains of truth, some of it has been distorted beyond fact, I'm sorry that you're a victim of it.
Beta testing is great. Just not when it's for Red Hat(Fedora), Canonical, Microsoft (WSL) or any other Greedy Corp. when they are requesting this in the spirit of open source.
Rather beta test for Debian
Not how open source works, you don't get to choose who benefits from it, it's for anyone who wants to use it. Ubuntu is downstream of Debian is it not?
Well Red Hat put up a paywall so that only those who they choose, can get the code. That's the issue. Then they justified it by calling users who want the code "free loaders". That's typical proprietary speak, it has no place in open source.
Ubuntu is downstream of Debian. But canonical have taken it, forced snaps on users, forced opt out telemetry in users and removed default flatpak support. All very user hostile moves.
Hence I'm calling the community to show these corps we don't need them and community distros have everything we need while protecting user freedom.
Remember what I said about hearsay? Everything in Fedora is FOSS, everything in RHEL is also FOSS (because it's in CentOS Stream). All the code is released, not behind a "paywall". All that Red Hat have done is make it more difficult for companies to sell a 1:1 "bug for bug compatible" RHEL clone - those are the "free loaders" being spoken of and who they're targeting, not the Linux community, it's people like Oracle (who incidentally are also the ones fanning the flames of this drama).
I'm no fan of Canonical, but even with your description you're really sensationalising things there as well. The point is by supporting Debian you're inadvertently supporting Canonical - I don't think that's a problem myself but it seems you have double standards.
I would like to quote for you from Gnu.org, Richard Stallman's organization that invented the idea of free software. Here he explains what that means. I'll link to the full webpage below.
"Actually, we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can.** If a license does not permit users to make copies and sell them, it is a nonfree license.** If this seems surprising to you, please read on.
The word “free” has two legitimate general meanings; it can refer either to freedom or to price. When we speak of “free software,” we're talking about freedom, not price. (Think of “free speech,” not “free beer.”) Specifically, it means that a user is free to run the program, study and change the program, and redistribute the program with or without changes."
(Emphasis mine)
Source: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
As you can see, anyone who obtains the code CAN redistribute it unchanged, bug for bug......
I rest my case.
You haven't even made a case to rest.
Why would this be a good thing at all? One of the main goals of the ecosystem is to have multiple choices, and as others in this thread has mentioned, Fedoras made significant progress for the adoption of Linux as a whole
Because you'd be helping Community distros get better, as well as financially, instead of supporting corporations that use you as beta testers to improve their paid corporate product and then screw you over when you want access to the server code.
I still don’t see how having the choice is a bad thing. If you don’t like Red Hats position, then don’t use Fedora. For those that believe using Fedora will help better the Open Source ecosystem, they have the ability to do so.
Getting rid of a choice completely because you don’t agree with a position in a nuanced conversation seems childish
I'm not saying it will be banned, you can still use it but I'm calling the community to return to community distros like Debian who are 100% libre and user freedom respecting.. Plus there many dedicated developers and other volunteers who support this out of love for FOSS and the principles of free computing for all.
That's not childish. It's a call to get back to our roots. Use Community distros, volunteer your time if you have the skills they need, make a money donation to thank them and help the project keep going. That's how FOSS is supposed to work.
By the Community, for the Community 💪
OpenSuse has a very well defined pipeline:
Tumbleweed -> Leap (maybe Slowroll) -> SLE.
OpenSuse is not going to break new ground. It's all about OBS and testing software before it hits their Paid Enterprise offerings. And they have almost a fully automated procedure for this. OpenSuse is not going to push Wayland only nor what will become the standard. It's not in their ethos. OpenSuse is there to build SLE's next release.
Debian being cutting edge?! Never. Debian is Debian, very slow to adopt anything. Debian is about offering a very stable release schedule. Debian will never push the ecosystem forward, it's not Debian's goal. You want a reliable system that just works? Debian is inarguably the king.
Agree 100%. And both are 100% Community. openSuse is privately owned and supported by a massive Community.
Debian is perfect for reliability (although opensuse is very reliable) who don't need the latest and don't like installing updates all the time. 100% Community based.
Two fantastic, shining examples of the power of Community supported software 💪