Right, nuance and context are infinitely important. Now what's the functional difference between the two? Because if none exists that can be implemented by the individual then the nuanced difference between the types of thoughts becomes irrelevant to how one handles them.
I am not emotionally affected by my 'intrusive thoughts' because they have as much bearing on reality as whether I like the smell of burnt toast.
The functional difference is:
Thoughts == benign shit passing through your brain that cause no personal discomfort.
Obtrusive thoughts == shit that intrudes on your regular internal monologue and causes discomfort or fixation.
It’s fine to have such thoughts, and it’s also fine to acknowledge that you don’t want them. Like I’m trying to get on with my day, but now my brain is playing a vivid horror show and I just want to finish my TPS report, not walk through every moment of myself shattering Steve’s skull with the fire axe because he can’t figure out how to use the collate function on the printer.
Sure, you can embrace that shit as fictional, but it’s distracting in the moment.
Sure, but handling an 'intrusive thought' is functionally no different to how you handle any other thought.
I say 'pink elephants' you're going to fixate for a bit, how that affects you emotionally won't change that functionally for you.
I guess there are degrees of intrusive thoughts, because no, it’s not really the same. ‘Don’t think about the elephant’ causes a benign and very fleeting fixation.
Intrusive thoughts are things that linger, often in a disturbing way, long after you want them gone. They interfere with your ability to focus.
The elephant thing is like a musical ear worm whereas intrusive thoughts can be like someone blaring industrial music in your ears. I’m not explaining this well, but it’s on another level.
I'm going to copy and paste my reply from another comment thread because it better explains my philosophical stance.
I am not emotionally disturbed by my 'intrusive thoughts' because they have as much bearing on reality as whether I like the smell of burnt toast. They are also my thoughts, I take full ownership of them, they aren't something that happens to me they're something I do.
I don't suffer their affliction, I have no personal experience with their incapacities. I don't let my pain define me, I own my thoughts, and even when I don't like the things I think, they are mine alone to think about.
I honestly and genuinely wish anyone who is afflicted by their own thoughts can access the tools and skills they need to improve their mental fortitude and improve their lives by learning to tolerate themselves.
I’m glad you’re so enlightened, but you should also understand that just because you have a zen-like mastery over your whole brain doesn’t mean it’s effortless for everyone.
I’d posit that rather than arguing with a definition that helps many people understand their own challenges, you might consider that the definition isn’t wrong, it’s just not meant for you. That those people are accessing the tools and skills they need, and this definition is one of those tools.
Truth be told, I don’t suffer from overly intrusive thoughts, either, but I understand and can empathise with those who do. We’re not all the same, and understanding each other’s experiences is one of our greatest strengths as humans.
e: a word
Any you're right, we all have our failings. Mine is an incapacity to enjoy seeing people afflicted by their mental anguish when I feel like adjusting their perspective to fit mine is what gives me the ability to control myself.
This results in me being unable to sympathise with those people despite empathising with them because it makes me feel like they're actively rejecting one of those tools that will get them where they need to be.
Like being thrown a rope when you're stuck in the well, if you reject the rope what is the person up top supposed to think?
I’d perhaps liken it more to jumping in the water to save someone who’s drowning.
You’re trying to help them and they should logically know that, but their instinct drives them to grab you everywhere and act like an anchor, drowning you both.
No matter how rational a person is, emotion and subconscious reactions can override all of that. That’s not really a failing as it’s the basis for empathy, but those same subconscious reactions can form a feedback loop that’s very difficult to escape.
I’d perhaps liken it more to jumping in the water to save someone who’s drowning.
Thank you, that's an anology I can work with.
No matter how rational a person is, emotion and subconscious reactions can override all of that.
I wish that was the case. I'm diagnosed as high functioning autistic presenting, 100% autism free, but my natural capacity for logic obliterated my emotional development. I can and do functionally parse all my emotional thought through logic. This is my weakness and my strength.
I'm not unaware that my approaches are often mistaken for dismissal or ignorance of people's feelings, because they are, but they're also the tools that emotional people need to temper their emotions.
I don't lack empathy, I lack the tools to express it, work in progress.
These people are at the bottom of the well and I don't have a rope, but that's not going to stop me jumping in to try save them, even if I do drown every time until I get one. I just hope I can teach some of them to climb without the rope even though they feel like they need it.
I can't help, so let me help you help yourself.
but my natural capacity for logic obliterated my emotional development. I can and do functionally parse all my emotional thought through logic. This is my weakness and my strength.
Dude, 100% same. I spent the better part of two decades developing my capacity for empathy (it was a core requirement in my chosen career), and I still have issues truly relating on an individual level.
Humans are messy, incoherent, illogical creatures. You and I are, too, whether or not we want to see it. The pitfall we face is our propensity to extrapolate our personal experience to others where that just doesn’t work. We want things to make sense, and we think our solution should just work, but people aren’t like coins with binary answers. They’re more like a fistful of dice made of slime and bees with no numbers on their faces.
We make you want to give up because we’re confusing and painful. Eventually you can figure out patterns, though they’ll change and frustrate you.
Sorry for the mini-rant. I’ve enjoyed our conversation.
Sorry for the mini-rant. I’ve enjoyed our conversation.
No need to apologise, the opportunity to feel comprehended has been far more valuable than you might realise.
I might have trouble relating and connecting on an emotional level but my belligerence to be understood is limitless. Gets me in trouble because most people feel instead of comprehend and that's just not logical.
One of the feelings I hate the most is the feeling you get when you know someone agrees with you they just lack the capacity to know why. It's the bane of my existance.
Lol. Guess it's my turn to apologise for the rant.
Thoughts = literally any thought
Intrusive thoughts = the type of thoughts we don't particularly want to think because they make us uncomfortable, but they intrude into our stream of consciousness either way.
It's called being descriptive, and it lets people know exactly what kind of thought you're referring to by adding a simple adjective before the word.
My stream of consciousness picks things up, not has things fall into it.
It's a matter of perspective.
what you're failing to pick up on is that no one cares about how you handle your thoughts and you can stop talking about yourself as if we should all aspire to think the way you do. this thread has largely been about the shared experience of having what we call intrusive thoughts and you coming here and trying to hijack that by telling us we are doing it wrong was never going to be well received.
Cool story, glad your shared experiences are the only valid ones because it involves suffering.
we're not suffering and you're not a savior. stop trying to impose your way of thinking on a bunch of people. that's one of the very first things one needs to learn in life to not be an insufferable person. i suppose the irony is that I was once like that and have learned to stop. but I can recognize it in an instant.
Never claimed to be except in metaphore, I'm not trying to impose my thinking on anyone. Making statements is not persuasion, if you want your mind changed change it, but that doesn't change the legitimacy of my point of view.
I'm not shying away despite the downvotes because they're irrelevant, anyone who chooses to benefit themselves with what I provide will do so. No intelligent person has ever been without detractors, I'm aware of the value of the derogatory statements towards me, it's zero. Because anyone lacking the capacity to see past their feelings for comprehension doesn't have an opinion worth entertaining.
the problem is that your clearly believe your way of thinking is better for everyone else. it is better FOR YOU. full stop. you are welcome to share what works FOR YOU. but your attitude that it is objectively better for everyone else is not something you could possibly know. and your insistence that it is better whether anyone accepts that or not is strong evidence of your lack of maturity and life experience.
The lack of suffering I experience at the behest of my own thoughts is objective evidence it's better.
whether anyone accepts that or not is strong evidence of your lack of maturity and life experience.
Come now, you can be better than that. I already told you the value of your derogatory statements, but if they make you feel more secure in your wilful ignorance then more power to you.
you are welcome to share what works FOR YOU
Apparently not since everyone insists on telling me to shut up. Like you. Right now. For doing exactly that.
You're free to not engage with my opinions, it's even easier than typing a reply but it requires the actual self control required to rein in your ego long enough to let go of me emotionally. But I understand if you can't given the general sense of a lack of emotional control from people in this thread.
if you think evidence in your own life makes something objectively better for others then you have no idea what objective means.
Just because you can't see behind the mountain doesn't mean I don't know what's there.
Right, nuance and context are infinitely important. Now what's the functional difference between the two? Because if none exists that can be implemented by the individual then the nuanced difference between the types of thoughts becomes irrelevant to how one handles them.
I am not emotionally affected by my 'intrusive thoughts' because they have as much bearing on reality as whether I like the smell of burnt toast.
The functional difference is:
Thoughts == benign shit passing through your brain that cause no personal discomfort.
Obtrusive thoughts == shit that intrudes on your regular internal monologue and causes discomfort or fixation.
It’s fine to have such thoughts, and it’s also fine to acknowledge that you don’t want them. Like I’m trying to get on with my day, but now my brain is playing a vivid horror show and I just want to finish my TPS report, not walk through every moment of myself shattering Steve’s skull with the fire axe because he can’t figure out how to use the collate function on the printer.
Sure, you can embrace that shit as fictional, but it’s distracting in the moment.
Sure, but handling an 'intrusive thought' is functionally no different to how you handle any other thought.
I say 'pink elephants' you're going to fixate for a bit, how that affects you emotionally won't change that functionally for you.
I guess there are degrees of intrusive thoughts, because no, it’s not really the same. ‘Don’t think about the elephant’ causes a benign and very fleeting fixation.
Intrusive thoughts are things that linger, often in a disturbing way, long after you want them gone. They interfere with your ability to focus.
The elephant thing is like a musical ear worm whereas intrusive thoughts can be like someone blaring industrial music in your ears. I’m not explaining this well, but it’s on another level.
I'm going to copy and paste my reply from another comment thread because it better explains my philosophical stance.
I am not emotionally disturbed by my 'intrusive thoughts' because they have as much bearing on reality as whether I like the smell of burnt toast. They are also my thoughts, I take full ownership of them, they aren't something that happens to me they're something I do.
I don't suffer their affliction, I have no personal experience with their incapacities. I don't let my pain define me, I own my thoughts, and even when I don't like the things I think, they are mine alone to think about.
I honestly and genuinely wish anyone who is afflicted by their own thoughts can access the tools and skills they need to improve their mental fortitude and improve their lives by learning to tolerate themselves.
I’m glad you’re so enlightened, but you should also understand that just because you have a zen-like mastery over your whole brain doesn’t mean it’s effortless for everyone.
I’d posit that rather than arguing with a definition that helps many people understand their own challenges, you might consider that the definition isn’t wrong, it’s just not meant for you. That those people are accessing the tools and skills they need, and this definition is one of those tools.
Truth be told, I don’t suffer from overly intrusive thoughts, either, but I understand and can empathise with those who do. We’re not all the same, and understanding each other’s experiences is one of our greatest strengths as humans.
e: a word
Any you're right, we all have our failings. Mine is an incapacity to enjoy seeing people afflicted by their mental anguish when I feel like adjusting their perspective to fit mine is what gives me the ability to control myself.
This results in me being unable to sympathise with those people despite empathising with them because it makes me feel like they're actively rejecting one of those tools that will get them where they need to be.
Like being thrown a rope when you're stuck in the well, if you reject the rope what is the person up top supposed to think?
I’d perhaps liken it more to jumping in the water to save someone who’s drowning.
You’re trying to help them and they should logically know that, but their instinct drives them to grab you everywhere and act like an anchor, drowning you both.
No matter how rational a person is, emotion and subconscious reactions can override all of that. That’s not really a failing as it’s the basis for empathy, but those same subconscious reactions can form a feedback loop that’s very difficult to escape.
Thank you, that's an anology I can work with.
I wish that was the case. I'm diagnosed as high functioning autistic presenting, 100% autism free, but my natural capacity for logic obliterated my emotional development. I can and do functionally parse all my emotional thought through logic. This is my weakness and my strength.
I'm not unaware that my approaches are often mistaken for dismissal or ignorance of people's feelings, because they are, but they're also the tools that emotional people need to temper their emotions.
I don't lack empathy, I lack the tools to express it, work in progress.
These people are at the bottom of the well and I don't have a rope, but that's not going to stop me jumping in to try save them, even if I do drown every time until I get one. I just hope I can teach some of them to climb without the rope even though they feel like they need it.
I can't help, so let me help you help yourself.
Dude, 100% same. I spent the better part of two decades developing my capacity for empathy (it was a core requirement in my chosen career), and I still have issues truly relating on an individual level.
Humans are messy, incoherent, illogical creatures. You and I are, too, whether or not we want to see it. The pitfall we face is our propensity to extrapolate our personal experience to others where that just doesn’t work. We want things to make sense, and we think our solution should just work, but people aren’t like coins with binary answers. They’re more like a fistful of dice made of slime and bees with no numbers on their faces.
We make you want to give up because we’re confusing and painful. Eventually you can figure out patterns, though they’ll change and frustrate you.
Sorry for the mini-rant. I’ve enjoyed our conversation.
No need to apologise, the opportunity to feel comprehended has been far more valuable than you might realise.
I might have trouble relating and connecting on an emotional level but my belligerence to be understood is limitless. Gets me in trouble because most people feel instead of comprehend and that's just not logical.
One of the feelings I hate the most is the feeling you get when you know someone agrees with you they just lack the capacity to know why. It's the bane of my existance.
Lol. Guess it's my turn to apologise for the rant.
Thoughts = literally any thought
Intrusive thoughts = the type of thoughts we don't particularly want to think because they make us uncomfortable, but they intrude into our stream of consciousness either way.
It's called being descriptive, and it lets people know exactly what kind of thought you're referring to by adding a simple adjective before the word.
My stream of consciousness picks things up, not has things fall into it.
It's a matter of perspective.
what you're failing to pick up on is that no one cares about how you handle your thoughts and you can stop talking about yourself as if we should all aspire to think the way you do. this thread has largely been about the shared experience of having what we call intrusive thoughts and you coming here and trying to hijack that by telling us we are doing it wrong was never going to be well received.
Cool story, glad your shared experiences are the only valid ones because it involves suffering.
we're not suffering and you're not a savior. stop trying to impose your way of thinking on a bunch of people. that's one of the very first things one needs to learn in life to not be an insufferable person. i suppose the irony is that I was once like that and have learned to stop. but I can recognize it in an instant.
Never claimed to be except in metaphore, I'm not trying to impose my thinking on anyone. Making statements is not persuasion, if you want your mind changed change it, but that doesn't change the legitimacy of my point of view.
I'm not shying away despite the downvotes because they're irrelevant, anyone who chooses to benefit themselves with what I provide will do so. No intelligent person has ever been without detractors, I'm aware of the value of the derogatory statements towards me, it's zero. Because anyone lacking the capacity to see past their feelings for comprehension doesn't have an opinion worth entertaining.
the problem is that your clearly believe your way of thinking is better for everyone else. it is better FOR YOU. full stop. you are welcome to share what works FOR YOU. but your attitude that it is objectively better for everyone else is not something you could possibly know. and your insistence that it is better whether anyone accepts that or not is strong evidence of your lack of maturity and life experience.
The lack of suffering I experience at the behest of my own thoughts is objective evidence it's better.
Come now, you can be better than that. I already told you the value of your derogatory statements, but if they make you feel more secure in your wilful ignorance then more power to you.
Apparently not since everyone insists on telling me to shut up. Like you. Right now. For doing exactly that.
You're free to not engage with my opinions, it's even easier than typing a reply but it requires the actual self control required to rein in your ego long enough to let go of me emotionally. But I understand if you can't given the general sense of a lack of emotional control from people in this thread.
if you think evidence in your own life makes something objectively better for others then you have no idea what objective means.
Just because you can't see behind the mountain doesn't mean I don't know what's there.