The existence of Hamas isn't an excuse for the genocide of Palestine.
If Hamas all killed themselves publicly immediately, this wouldn't stop.
The Israeli government backed the rise of Hamas over moderate secular orgs - they've admitted to this. The Israeli government wants to commit a genocide in order to establish an ethnostate - they've admitted to this, and kill far more Palestinian civilians than Hamas - to say nothing of those they've forcefully displaced, and the rest that they confine to an open air concentration camp (which they're currently bombing). The Israeli government supported the Hamas terrorists, knowing they'd kill Israelis, creating the pretext for what they're now doing. This is monstrous.
If Hamas all killed themselves publicly immediately, this wouldn't stop.
It will, for the same reason why Israel couldn't do the genocide publicly without "creating the pretext" beforehand. Because somehow they feel satisfying public is imperative.
So they won't stop - they'll be stopped.
Israel, the dominant regional, nuclear power, have:
Established an apartheid state,
Confined their untermensch to concentration camps,
Promoted an openly hostile group to leadership of the untermensch, knowing hundreds/thousands would die, giving them an excuse to kill orders of magnitude more.
Restricted/cut water, food, power, trade and movement to the country-scale concentration camps.
Killed tens of thousands of civilians, injuring and displacing many more to advance a genocide to establish an ethnostate.
Will likely abandon democracy.
...and they won't stop until they're forced to.
Why are you defending this unambiguously monstrous behaviour
How much further would Israel need to go for you to condemn them
Why shouldn't the international community (i.e. The US) step in immediately?
Is there a meaningful distinction between Novemberpogrome-era (kristallnacht) Nazi Germany and Israel you can identify?
Why at some point you say Israel needs a public reason and very carefully constructed circumstances to start the invasion, but then say that Israel will not stop this invasion unless someone makes them? This absense of logic shows that your judgement is based on how you imagine a monster in your head, not on how real events play out.
If you allow yourself to assume I'm defending Israel, then I'm gonna assume you're defending monsters who were, by your own words, put in power by Israel, and then for years were bombing both Israel as Gaza with barely working missiles.
You refuse the idea of hamas being able to stop the invasion by surrendering, so I'm assuming those people are more important than the rest of Palestinians for you.
Why do you ask me to condemn something if, by your own words, only the US is able to stop Israel? I'm not the US and they will not listen to me.
Looking for confirmation of some magic connection between something and nazi Germany is useless and only serves your own satisfaction in placing a "bad" marker on a monster you imagined in your head. Feel free to do that without anyone's permission.
Why at some point you say Israel needs a public reason and very carefully constructed circumstances to start the invasion, but then say that Israel will not stop this invasion unless someone makes them? This absense of logic shows that your judgement is based on how you imagine a monster in your head, not on how real events play out.
If Israel doesn't manufacture pretext, the US won't be able to support them, which will stop the UN security council vetoes, military and financial aid, the dampener on international condemnation, and likely trigger direct intervention to stop the genocide - as it is, Biden has taken a massive hit at the polls due to his support. This is very simple, straightforward logic where's the gap you're insisting exists?
If you allow yourself to assume I'm defending Israel
What are you doing here if not defending Israel? I've given you ample opportunity to correct the record on this point, and you've consistently deflected to whining about the far lesser of two evils.
I'm gonna assume you're defending monsters who were, by your own words, put in power by Israel.
Yes - I'm defending the group I called monsters (and evil in the paragraph above). You're too stupid to sell these lies - don't bother.
You refuse the idea of hamas being able to stop the invasion by surrendering, so I'm assuming those people are more important than the rest of Palestinians for you.
You're going to need to explain your logic on this one. There's zero logical connection between those statements.
Why do you ask me to condemn something if, by your own words, only the US is able to stop Israel? I'm not the US and they will not listen to me.
Because I'm underscoring the fact that you're defending a genocide. You've complained about Hamas - WHY THE FUCK HAVEN'T YOU STOPPED THEM?
Looking for confirmation of some magic connection between something and nazi Germany is useless and only serves your own satisfaction in placing a "bad" marker on a monster you imagined in your head. Feel free to do that without anyone's permission.
I've drawn a pretty clear comparison between the actions of Israel and one of the most uncontroversially evil groups in history (particularly to Israelis). I've invited you to point to a meaningful difference between one of the greatest evils in history and the group you're defending, and you've failed.
Give me a reason to think you're not defending a genocide rather than telling lies, pointing to fictional logic gaps and insisting I'm defending a group I'm actively condemning. It's reeeally simple "Israel are committing a genocide - a completely indefensible act, which should see their leadership tried in the Hague" or alternatively, "What Israel is doing is fine because..." - at which point I'll continue to ridicule you for your continued moronic, genocidal nonsense.
Over to you, Rudolph Jitler.
This is very simple, straightforward logic where's the gap you're insisting exists?
The gap is you thinking whatever they achieved with the "pretext" will not disappear with the last hamas members surrendering.
What are you doing here if not defending Israel?
I'm merely pointing at elephants in the room. What hamas have been doing was a mistake and a lost opportunity for Palestinians.
Yes - I'm defending the group I called monsters
Defending hamas you mean? Yes, I don't see why anyone would do that if not for the sake of hoping they would do more useless attacks, instead of doing something meaningful in current situation.
You're going to need to explain your logic on this one.
IDF: we need to kill hamas terrorists.
Hamas: gotta hide ourselves and let them kill Palestinians instead.
You: Israel wants to kill Palestinians, not hamas. Hamas better hide themselves.
Still not seeing it?
You've complained about Hamas - WHY THE FUCK HAVEN'T YOU STOPPED THEM?
So this is why I haven't been seeing any discussion where people like you condemned hamas terrorists attacks in past years? Because by your logic you need to be able to do something to correct the situation in order to be allowed to condemn it? I see. But then not getting what are you trying to achieve here.
I've drawn a pretty clear comparison between the actions of Israel and one of the most uncontroversially evil groups in history (particularly to Israelis). I've invited you to point to a meaningful difference between one of the greatest evils in history and the group you're defending, and you've failed.
Let's start with the fact that nazi didn't need to construct the "pretext" that would rely on a group (that they've put in power) that would attack them with useless missiles. They've just attacked. Meaningful difference.
Jitler, I'd say I expected better, but I'm not as comfortable lying as you clearly are, and my views aren't dependent on lies. You're having trouble keeping your story straight and it shows.
The gap is you thinking whatever they achieved with the "pretext" will not disappear with the last hamas members surrendering.
The pretext is killing Hamas. No Hamas, no pretext. Even you can't be this stupid - this isn't a lie worth telling. If Israel isn't trying to kill Hamas, are you just biting the bullet and admitting they're committing a genocide to establish an ethnostate?
I'm merely pointing at elephants in the room. What hamas have been doing was a mistake and a lost opportunity for Palestinians.
Yeah - Hamas are bad and counter-productive. As you point to the elephant in the room, there's a pack of genocidal monsters gunning down every Palestinian in sight... not to mention a bunch of journalists, aid workers and Israelis - you'll have to forgive my suspicion at your singular fixation on the elephant.
Defending hamas you mean? Yes, I don't see why anyone would do that if not for the sake of hoping they would do more useless attacks, instead of doing something meaningful in current situation.
Yes - calling Hamas monsters and many other negative things could only be because I am defending them and want them to do more useless attacks. Another lie too transparently stupid to be worth telling.
IDF: we need to kill hamas terrorists.
Hamas: gotta hide ourselves and let them kill Palestinians instead.
You: Israel wants to kill Palestinians, not hamas. Hamas better hide themselves.
Israel: We want to genocide Palestine
Hamas: Thanks for the funding and helping us displace the secular moderates - I guess we'll do exactly what we said we would and kill Israelis
Israel: oh no... I guess we'll have to genocide Palestine - can't be helped - we couldn't know who is and isn't Hamas... Thanks for the continued support, US.
Difference is that I can just point to actual quotes from Israeli leaders rather than sharing - but more on that later.
So this is why I haven't been seeing any discussion where people like you condemned hamas terrorists attacks in past years?
I wasn't on Lemmy until a couple of months ago, so you can't possibly be talking about me. That said, I haven't seen it as particularly relevant to comment on it the past few years - particularly when Israel were killing orders of magnitude more Palestinians while maintaining concentration camp conditions in Palestine. The recent escalation to clear genocide changed that.
Because by your logic you need to be able to do something to correct the situation in order to be allowed to condemn it? I see. But then not getting what are you trying to achieve here.
That was your moronic logic - not mine. I've been comfortable condemning Israel, Hamas and the Nazis, as your logic from your last reply means that you'd need to insist Hitler did nothing wrong. It's clear you're struggling to keep your lies straight, so here's a refresher...
Why do you ask me to condemn something if, by your own words, only the US is able to stop Israel? I'm not the US and they will not listen to me.
Again - this is all plain to see and too dumb and transparent a lie to be worth telling.
Let's start with the fact that nazi didn't need to construct the "pretext" that would rely on a group (that they've put in power) that would attack them with useless missiles. They've just attacked. Meaningful difference.
The only meaningful difference you can identify between the actions and rhetoric of Israel and early Nazi Germany is the fact that Nazi Germany wasn't dependent on the support of an external party they needed to placate? I won't argue with that - what do you think that says about the regime you're running cover for?
You still haven't managed to condemn Israel, and you've spent an awful lot of time whining about the comparatively minor evils of Hamas when you've made it clear Israel is comparable to Nazi Germany. Why is that?
Now for those quotes I promised you...
Prime Minister Netanyahu
They (Israel/IDF) are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world,”
and
You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.
and
I don’t call them human animals because that would be insulting to animals
"Defence" minister Galant
We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly
Kallner...
Nakba to the enemy now! This day is our Pearl Harbour. We will still learn the lessons. Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. A Nakba in Gaza and a Nakba for anyone who dares to join!
Atbaryan...
erasing all of Gaza from the face of the Earth. Gaza needs to be wiped out.
Halevi...
goals for this victory. One, there is no more Muslim land in the land of Israel. After we make it the land of Israel, Gaza should be left as a monument, like Sodom.”
In case you don't remember your Torah, here's a refresher on the Amalekites... I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
The pretext is killing Hamas. No Hamas, no pretext. Even you can’t be this stupid - this isn’t a lie worth telling. If Israel isn’t trying to kill Hamas, are you just biting the bullet and admitting they’re committing a genocide to establish an ethnostate?
Yeah I struggle to understand why you're avoiding the whole matter of how "capture all Hamas members and release all hostages" is such a difficult concept to grasp and, therefore, a matter to fulfill. If someone actually wants to make IDF go home, that is.
As you point to the elephant in the room, there’s a pack of genocidal monsters gunning down every Palestinian in sight… not to mention a bunch of journalists, aid workers and Israelis - you’ll have to forgive my suspicion at your singular fixation on the elephant.
And there is also a thing that happened on October that involved quite a lot of stuff. A thing that would have prevented a lot of deaths, if it had not been done, you know. I'm not asking you to forgive my suspicion at your fixation on something that came after that. I'm telling that you are defending terrorists. Or, maybe, you even share goals with them.
Yes - calling Hamas monsters and many other negative things could only be because I am defending them and want them to do more useless attacks. Another lie too transparently stupid to be worth telling.
Well you're only calling them negative things when asked about it, and only to make others accept you as an adequate person, or stuff. Pretty simple concept to grasp - express something that you don't really feel, you know. Called a "lie".
Israel: We want to genocide Palestine
That didn't happen. Or, whatever the way you want to rephrase it, the ground operation decision was not made until what happened on October, happened.
Hamas: Thanks for the funding and helping us displace the secular moderates - I guess we’ll do exactly what we said we would and kill Israelis
So you're basically refusing the idea that Hamas could be adequate human beings, and think they can only operate as machines, or instruments in someone's hands. Too bad. It is they themselves who should take responsibility for their actions, not Israel.
I haven’t seen it as particularly relevant to comment on it the past few years - particularly when Israel were killing orders of magnitude more Palestinians while maintaining concentration camp conditions in Palestine.
Magnitude more than... ?
You still haven’t managed to condemn Israel
I don't need to condemn Israel. They are being watched, and are a subject to investigations and prosecutions, or whatever the world community decides will be needed. Hamas is a whole different beast - there is no one to bring them to justice as there are no proper institutions in Gaza for that to happen.
comparatively minor evils of Hamas
Comparatively... minor...
Okay look I got a new explanation for you. Simple one. Hamas did this to themselves, and to all Palestinians in the process. Why and how? Simple.
Hamas: We enjoy killing and can't care enough to build anything that would help our citizens in their lives. we will make them into terrorists and teach them to enjoy killing. So when Israel comes for us, they will have the whole Gaza to fight against. The more Palestinians are killed by Israel, even by accident - the more terrorists we will have at our disposal. * invades Israel to mercilessly kill/rape civilians and take hostages * Come at us, Israel, we need you to kill our people or else we won't have enough terrorists.
Israel: Well you asked for it. We tried our best, even gave jobs to your people and provided you for your needs but you wasted all resources into missiles instead. Too bad that you can't get your shit together.
Hamas: Thank you! Can't wait to die as heroes from your hands and give rise to a terrorist army.
Simple concept, don't you see? Current genocide is the intended result of Hamas' actions - they needed someone to come and kill a lot of people. Israel's evils are comparatively minor, they are merely being used as instruments.
Also, could you maybe explain why would someone call someone else Jitler, and why would someone assume someone else knows what "Torah" is?
If my active, repeated condemnation of Hamas is support, based on your self-contradictory, transparently dishonest, frequently Incoherent, cowardly and genocidal rambling, it's safe to assume you're currently raping a Palestinian baby to death, and I don't particularly need to be a part of that.
Yeah I think it would help everyone to waste less time if you could spill out exactly that in the first place, instead of ramblings towards the Jitler guy and Torah stories.
You're getting upset about a little name calling while defending a genocide? Why would I care, Jitler?
Only upset about finding that another terrorist defender couldn't prove being adequate.
Hope some of you guys will still at some point learn that people should be judged for their actions even if they are lawless terrorists.
I hope so too - difference between you and me is that I apply the principle consistently to both Hamas,the Israelis backing them, and the Israelis committing a genocide.
The existence of Hamas isn't an excuse for the genocide of Palestine.
If Hamas all killed themselves publicly immediately, this wouldn't stop.
The Israeli government backed the rise of Hamas over moderate secular orgs - they've admitted to this. The Israeli government wants to commit a genocide in order to establish an ethnostate - they've admitted to this, and kill far more Palestinian civilians than Hamas - to say nothing of those they've forcefully displaced, and the rest that they confine to an open air concentration camp (which they're currently bombing). The Israeli government supported the Hamas terrorists, knowing they'd kill Israelis, creating the pretext for what they're now doing. This is monstrous.
It will, for the same reason why Israel couldn't do the genocide publicly without "creating the pretext" beforehand. Because somehow they feel satisfying public is imperative.
So they won't stop - they'll be stopped.
Israel, the dominant regional, nuclear power, have:
Established an apartheid state,
Confined their untermensch to concentration camps,
Promoted an openly hostile group to leadership of the untermensch, knowing hundreds/thousands would die, giving them an excuse to kill orders of magnitude more.
Restricted/cut water, food, power, trade and movement to the country-scale concentration camps.
Killed tens of thousands of civilians, injuring and displacing many more to advance a genocide to establish an ethnostate.
Will likely abandon democracy.
...and they won't stop until they're forced to.
Why are you defending this unambiguously monstrous behaviour
How much further would Israel need to go for you to condemn them
Why shouldn't the international community (i.e. The US) step in immediately?
Is there a meaningful distinction between Novemberpogrome-era (kristallnacht) Nazi Germany and Israel you can identify?
Why at some point you say Israel needs a public reason and very carefully constructed circumstances to start the invasion, but then say that Israel will not stop this invasion unless someone makes them? This absense of logic shows that your judgement is based on how you imagine a monster in your head, not on how real events play out.
If you allow yourself to assume I'm defending Israel, then I'm gonna assume you're defending monsters who were, by your own words, put in power by Israel, and then for years were bombing both Israel as Gaza with barely working missiles.
You refuse the idea of hamas being able to stop the invasion by surrendering, so I'm assuming those people are more important than the rest of Palestinians for you.
Why do you ask me to condemn something if, by your own words, only the US is able to stop Israel? I'm not the US and they will not listen to me.
Looking for confirmation of some magic connection between something and nazi Germany is useless and only serves your own satisfaction in placing a "bad" marker on a monster you imagined in your head. Feel free to do that without anyone's permission.
If Israel doesn't manufacture pretext, the US won't be able to support them, which will stop the UN security council vetoes, military and financial aid, the dampener on international condemnation, and likely trigger direct intervention to stop the genocide - as it is, Biden has taken a massive hit at the polls due to his support. This is very simple, straightforward logic where's the gap you're insisting exists?
What are you doing here if not defending Israel? I've given you ample opportunity to correct the record on this point, and you've consistently deflected to whining about the far lesser of two evils.
Yes - I'm defending the group I called monsters (and evil in the paragraph above). You're too stupid to sell these lies - don't bother.
You're going to need to explain your logic on this one. There's zero logical connection between those statements.
Because I'm underscoring the fact that you're defending a genocide. You've complained about Hamas - WHY THE FUCK HAVEN'T YOU STOPPED THEM?
I've drawn a pretty clear comparison between the actions of Israel and one of the most uncontroversially evil groups in history (particularly to Israelis). I've invited you to point to a meaningful difference between one of the greatest evils in history and the group you're defending, and you've failed.
Give me a reason to think you're not defending a genocide rather than telling lies, pointing to fictional logic gaps and insisting I'm defending a group I'm actively condemning. It's reeeally simple "Israel are committing a genocide - a completely indefensible act, which should see their leadership tried in the Hague" or alternatively, "What Israel is doing is fine because..." - at which point I'll continue to ridicule you for your continued moronic, genocidal nonsense.
Over to you, Rudolph Jitler.
The gap is you thinking whatever they achieved with the "pretext" will not disappear with the last hamas members surrendering.
I'm merely pointing at elephants in the room. What hamas have been doing was a mistake and a lost opportunity for Palestinians.
Defending hamas you mean? Yes, I don't see why anyone would do that if not for the sake of hoping they would do more useless attacks, instead of doing something meaningful in current situation.
IDF: we need to kill hamas terrorists.
Hamas: gotta hide ourselves and let them kill Palestinians instead.
You: Israel wants to kill Palestinians, not hamas. Hamas better hide themselves.
Still not seeing it?
So this is why I haven't been seeing any discussion where people like you condemned hamas terrorists attacks in past years? Because by your logic you need to be able to do something to correct the situation in order to be allowed to condemn it? I see. But then not getting what are you trying to achieve here.
Let's start with the fact that nazi didn't need to construct the "pretext" that would rely on a group (that they've put in power) that would attack them with useless missiles. They've just attacked. Meaningful difference.
Jitler, I'd say I expected better, but I'm not as comfortable lying as you clearly are, and my views aren't dependent on lies. You're having trouble keeping your story straight and it shows.
The pretext is killing Hamas. No Hamas, no pretext. Even you can't be this stupid - this isn't a lie worth telling. If Israel isn't trying to kill Hamas, are you just biting the bullet and admitting they're committing a genocide to establish an ethnostate?
Yeah - Hamas are bad and counter-productive. As you point to the elephant in the room, there's a pack of genocidal monsters gunning down every Palestinian in sight... not to mention a bunch of journalists, aid workers and Israelis - you'll have to forgive my suspicion at your singular fixation on the elephant.
Yes - calling Hamas monsters and many other negative things could only be because I am defending them and want them to do more useless attacks. Another lie too transparently stupid to be worth telling.
Israel: We want to genocide Palestine Hamas: Thanks for the funding and helping us displace the secular moderates - I guess we'll do exactly what we said we would and kill Israelis Israel: oh no... I guess we'll have to genocide Palestine - can't be helped - we couldn't know who is and isn't Hamas... Thanks for the continued support, US.
Difference is that I can just point to actual quotes from Israeli leaders rather than sharing - but more on that later.
I wasn't on Lemmy until a couple of months ago, so you can't possibly be talking about me. That said, I haven't seen it as particularly relevant to comment on it the past few years - particularly when Israel were killing orders of magnitude more Palestinians while maintaining concentration camp conditions in Palestine. The recent escalation to clear genocide changed that.
That was your moronic logic - not mine. I've been comfortable condemning Israel, Hamas and the Nazis, as your logic from your last reply means that you'd need to insist Hitler did nothing wrong. It's clear you're struggling to keep your lies straight, so here's a refresher...
Again - this is all plain to see and too dumb and transparent a lie to be worth telling.
The only meaningful difference you can identify between the actions and rhetoric of Israel and early Nazi Germany is the fact that Nazi Germany wasn't dependent on the support of an external party they needed to placate? I won't argue with that - what do you think that says about the regime you're running cover for?
You still haven't managed to condemn Israel, and you've spent an awful lot of time whining about the comparatively minor evils of Hamas when you've made it clear Israel is comparable to Nazi Germany. Why is that?
Now for those quotes I promised you...
Prime Minister Netanyahu
and
and
"Defence" minister Galant
Kallner...
Atbaryan...
Halevi...
In case you don't remember your Torah, here's a refresher on the Amalekites... I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
Yeah I struggle to understand why you're avoiding the whole matter of how "capture all Hamas members and release all hostages" is such a difficult concept to grasp and, therefore, a matter to fulfill. If someone actually wants to make IDF go home, that is.
And there is also a thing that happened on October that involved quite a lot of stuff. A thing that would have prevented a lot of deaths, if it had not been done, you know. I'm not asking you to forgive my suspicion at your fixation on something that came after that. I'm telling that you are defending terrorists. Or, maybe, you even share goals with them.
Well you're only calling them negative things when asked about it, and only to make others accept you as an adequate person, or stuff. Pretty simple concept to grasp - express something that you don't really feel, you know. Called a "lie".
That didn't happen. Or, whatever the way you want to rephrase it, the ground operation decision was not made until what happened on October, happened.
So you're basically refusing the idea that Hamas could be adequate human beings, and think they can only operate as machines, or instruments in someone's hands. Too bad. It is they themselves who should take responsibility for their actions, not Israel.
Magnitude more than... ?
I don't need to condemn Israel. They are being watched, and are a subject to investigations and prosecutions, or whatever the world community decides will be needed. Hamas is a whole different beast - there is no one to bring them to justice as there are no proper institutions in Gaza for that to happen.
Comparatively... minor...
Okay look I got a new explanation for you. Simple one. Hamas did this to themselves, and to all Palestinians in the process. Why and how? Simple.
Hamas: We enjoy killing and can't care enough to build anything that would help our citizens in their lives. we will make them into terrorists and teach them to enjoy killing. So when Israel comes for us, they will have the whole Gaza to fight against. The more Palestinians are killed by Israel, even by accident - the more terrorists we will have at our disposal. * invades Israel to mercilessly kill/rape civilians and take hostages * Come at us, Israel, we need you to kill our people or else we won't have enough terrorists.
Israel: Well you asked for it. We tried our best, even gave jobs to your people and provided you for your needs but you wasted all resources into missiles instead. Too bad that you can't get your shit together.
Hamas: Thank you! Can't wait to die as heroes from your hands and give rise to a terrorist army.
Simple concept, don't you see? Current genocide is the intended result of Hamas' actions - they needed someone to come and kill a lot of people. Israel's evils are comparatively minor, they are merely being used as instruments.
Also, could you maybe explain why would someone call someone else Jitler, and why would someone assume someone else knows what "Torah" is?
If my active, repeated condemnation of Hamas is support, based on your self-contradictory, transparently dishonest, frequently Incoherent, cowardly and genocidal rambling, it's safe to assume you're currently raping a Palestinian baby to death, and I don't particularly need to be a part of that.
Yeah I think it would help everyone to waste less time if you could spill out exactly that in the first place, instead of ramblings towards the Jitler guy and Torah stories.
You're getting upset about a little name calling while defending a genocide? Why would I care, Jitler?
Only upset about finding that another terrorist defender couldn't prove being adequate.
Hope some of you guys will still at some point learn that people should be judged for their actions even if they are lawless terrorists.
I hope so too - difference between you and me is that I apply the principle consistently to both Hamas,the Israelis backing them, and the Israelis committing a genocide.
Now get your pathetic prick out of that baby.