What are racists doing with their - actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it - information?
What are women doing with this information?
A woman might in both cases be vary of the specific groups here, at the mildest level. Discrimination can range from very minor to very hostile behaviour. Basically your imagination is the limit for what someone might do about these prejudiced feelings.
actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it
Statistics Finland, Finnish Government, the police and several university studies have made deep dives into this. But if you can show them wrong then by all means, go ahead. But I can provide you the sources for these claims, if you really want to go there.
You're supplying nothing and asking me to disprove it. Fuck right off with that.
And the correct answer as to what those groups are doing with the information is:
Women are generally careful not to offend men.
Racists participate in violence against minorities.
These are not the same thing, and it should be obvious if you're even slightly paying attention.
You’re supplying nothing and asking me to disprove it. Fuck right off with that.
You yourself already claimed the statistics are "actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it" and now you are indignant that I'm asking you to show your work. But very well, I'll supply the sources first and then perhaps you can tell me how they are "twisted made up bullshit".
Have at it. Shouldn't be that hard because you seemingly already are knowledgeable about these stats and know they're bullshit.
These are not the same thing, and it should be obvious if you’re even slightly paying attention.
Nobody is arguing that all forms and types of prejudice are similar. The argument is that you are using the same arguments for your prejudice as those arguing for race based prejudice. But if your argument really is that the effects from one form of prejudice are better than others so it's fine, then alright. It's just a terrible look and makes it easier for racists to get away with their shit since their reasoning have been already accepted in other contexts.
Okay, so I think you knew this going in, but those are mostly written in Finnish, and since you already know I'm Australian, you probably knew I can't speak Finnish. So like, great job there.
Anyway, of the one that I can actually read, the problem is immediately apparent in the title.
Foreigners more often suspects of offences than Finns
Suspects.
That right there is the problem.
The difference is, racists will take these statistics - which often reveal racist policing and the effects of discrimination rather than saying anything about actual races - and twist them to a racist end, which is usually further violence towards those minorities.
Femicide is a real thing.
The difference is clear, and if you can't see the difference, then maybe you don't actually care about the people that are being hurt, and you only care about the rhetoric. I don't know, but I do know you're missing the point.
since you already know I’m Australian, you probably knew I can’t speak Finnish.
I'm not sure where I was supposed to know that from but I was making a claim and I think it was a fair assumption you knew what you were talking about since you dismissed it right away. So having to read Finnish sources about a Finnish topic doesn't seem like too much to ask. I'm not sure how you got to your conclusion before that the stats are “actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it” if you can't speak Finnish and don't know how to translate them. If it was through English language sources, surely you can use them here to help your argument about the stats being bullshit.
So like, great job there.
Nobody forced you to make a claim that the stats are bullshit without even having checked them.
Suspects. That right there is the problem.
Not just suspects, as shown in the Government of Finland and University of Helsinki studies. Did you even look at them?
The difference is, racists will take these statistics - which often reveal racist policing and the effects of discrimination rather than saying anything about actual races
Again something discussed in the studies. Racial bias hasn't been in any study shown to be anywhere near enough as an explanatory factor for having so much higher rate of sexual violence. Another things they've considered were for example poverty, culture, trauma and so on. I think poverty was ruled out as well, since even with racial bias, it still was much too high compared to population average. Some sort of combined factor is what they've considered, but a lot of the studies are unsure what causes it, but studies are very confident that's it's both a real thing and not made up by bias.
Whatever the explanatory factors, same as with men being violent towards women, the discussion is about what the real effect is and if that justifies blanket prejudice.
The difference is clear, and if you can’t see the difference, then maybe you don’t actually care about the people that are being hurt, and you only care about the rhetoric. I don’t know, but I do know you’re missing the point.
I've just provided you the studies that show that the much higher than average prevalence for sexual violence among some immigrant groups. It's a real thing. Men being violent against women is a real thing. I care that people are hurt. I'm saying I don't think it would be fair to call all men, in a blanket statement way, violent or call all of the men in certain immigrant groups rapists. It's fucked up imo. I wouldn't exactly blame women for being alert I guess, it's a reaction, but when people are justifying it online it does feel hurtful to be grouped in there. So no wonder people speak up. It's the same with so many types of prejudice, be it because of sex/gender, skin colour, age, whatnot.
Okay, I'm going to explain this:
actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it
Whenever you look at a racist trying to use statistics to bolster their worldview, it always winds up being thinly disguised bullshit. Not the statistic, but how they abuse them and pretend they say things they don't. That's a consistent pattern, and your attempts to do the same thing so far don't seem to be any different.
Not just suspects, as shown in the Government of Finland and University of Helsinki studies. Did you even look at them?
Of course I looked at them. That is how - please read this, and try to internalise it - I knew they were written in Finnish and I couldn't read them. What do you want me to do with them, exactly?
It's muddy and the exact mechanisms aren't clear as to why there are these discrepancies.
The femicide thing is extremely clear.
I’m saying I don’t think it would be fair to call all men, in a blanket statement way, violent
I didn't say that.
I wouldn’t exactly blame women for being alert I guess, it’s a reaction
That's all I said initially, and people, including you, are getting all bent out of shape over it.
when people are justifying it online it does feel hurtful to be grouped in there
But you just admitted it was justified to feel that way so like... why don't you like it when people justify it?
And yeah, it hurts. Guess what? Misogyny hurts men too. The answer is not to deny that it exists.
Whenever you look at a racist trying to use statistics to bolster their worldview, it always winds up being thinly disguised bullshit. Not the statistic, but how they abuse them and pretend they say things they don’t. That’s a consistent pattern, and your attempts to do the same thing so far don’t seem to be any different.
I'm not arguing for racism against any groups. My point is the opposite. Yes the statistics (which you claimed are bullshit but haven't been able to dismiss in any way) show that certain immigrant groups are way overrepresented in sexual violence. Yes, men are more violent towards women than women are towards women. But I specifically don't think it justifies blanket statements and labeling all of them as violent or rapists and definitely wouldn't be surprised if any people from those groups get bothered when such blanket statements are made.
Existence of the higher rate of violence (sexual, physical) is not justified reason imo to label all members of a group as such. That's the whole point.
Of course I looked at them. That is how - please read this, and try to internalise it - I knew they were written in Finnish and I couldn’t read them. What do you want me to do with them, exactly?
If you are claiming they are bullshit then I'd prefer you'd show me how. If you can't read them, I suggest translating them or providing stats or studies of your own that show the opposite result or dismiss the earlier stats and studies. Those can be in any language you wish.
If you are claiming my claims are "actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it", what I'm obviously hoping from you is the explain how. How did you come to that conclusion, is there something about these specific stats, if you perhaps have better ones or studies and or something.
The femicide thing is extremely clear.
I don't think the exact reasons for that have been made clear, what mix of biology, culture, poverty, misogyny and so on makes it up. Same as the sexual violence case. Hell, a lot of those factors propably overlap. But as said, the end result, these people (men, some immigrant groups etc) are cause of the violence. But the whole point was that while I understand caution (be it towards men in general or just certain men), I think the justification, blanket statements and mocking people who are hurt and alarmed by such blanket statements is bad.
I understand you're only using the statistics to make a point, and I'm explaining that when you look at the specific, actual information that is being revealed, the difference is clear. You seem determined to only look at the aesthetics of using statistics.
And I very easily dismissed the one that I could read. I'm not going to translate everything you send me so I can play whackamole with it, especially when we agree on the fact that the racists are wrong to use these studies. Unless we don't, in which case the fact you have these in your back pocket ready to go really does say something about you, doesn't it?
the end result, these people (men, some immigrant groups etc) are cause of the violence
Oh no! That sounds like you just made a blanket statement that men and immigrants are violent. That's actually something I've never done, unless you can quote me saying that.
You keep talking about these "blanket statements". Which ones? Quote them please. I would like to know what I have said that has got you on this tear about racism and immigration and why it's unfair to talk about statistics or whatever.
I’m explaining that when you look at the specific, actual information that is being revealed, the difference is clear.
It doesn't seem clear to me. What's the actual difference of men having a higher rate of violence towards women and one of those immigrant groups having having higher rate of sexual violence towards women? Both are real, actual things that are concerning for women, but what makes it okay to be prejudiced towards one group as perpetrators but not the another? That's something I don't understand.
I very easily dismissed the one that I could read
Not at all. You saw the word "suspect" and thought it can be dismissed on that basis alone without showing anything for conviction rates. It's an inordinately high rate of suspects and there's an inordinately high rate of those convicted.
I mean, you sure dismissed it I guess, but rather with an argument that doesn't hold much water at all. As the actual statistics show.
Oh no! That sounds like you just made a blanket statement that men and immigrants are violent. That’s actually something I’ve never done, unless you can quote me saying that.
It's sorta the whole basis of the discussion, that the behaviour and rhetoric employed here is justified because it is backed up by statistics. I don't think so. You seem to think so, at least in some cases.
You keep talking about “blanket statements”. Can you find the blanket statements I’ve made, please? You keep talking about these “blanket statements”. Which ones? Quote them please. I would like to know what I have said that has got you on this tear about racism and immigration and why it’s unfair to talk about statistics or whatever.
If you don't feel like this is one then I'm not sure what it is trying to say:
"Tell me, do you know how likely women are to be killed by men vs the other way around?"
"The problem with “not all men” is that there is an obvious follow up question: “which men?”"
why it’s unfair to talk about statistics or whatever.
I don't think it's unfair, I think labeling a whole group is.
You said this:
I’m saying I don’t think it would be fair to call all men, in a blanket statement way, violent
I said this:
“Tell me, do you know how likely women are to be killed by men vs the other way around?”
“The problem with “not all men” is that there is an obvious follow up question: “which men?””
Now, if you can't tell the difference here, if you really think I was making a blanket statement that all men are violent, I cannot help you.
You are completely wrong to call those blanket statements. If you're curious to understand what I mean, then I will explain, but you need to say that you are curious to understand me. So far I have seen nothing but pettifoggery. I will not translate that word.
Sounds like you cannot help me since it all sounds like prejudiced behaviour towards a group with statistics being used to justify it.
If you’re curious to understand what I mean, then I will explain, but you need to say that you are curious to understand me.
I mean better late than never. I would've expected that to have been the first thing to have been said here, but instead the whole thing got sidetracked about your doubt towards the statistics.
Sounds like you cannot help me since it all sounds like prejudiced behaviour towards a group with statistics being used to justify it.
Oh, what happened to "blanket statements"? Sounds like you've walked that back rather a long way to something a lot more vaguely characterised without any specific things you can point to. Once again you've fallen back on the aesthetics.
I mean better late than never. I would’ve expected that to have been the first thing to have been said here, but instead the whole thing got sidetracked about your doubt towards the statistics.
So are you or are you not curious to understand what I am saying? I need to hear you say it before I waste another moment on this.
What are women doing with this information?
What are racists doing with their - actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it - information?
A woman might in both cases be vary of the specific groups here, at the mildest level. Discrimination can range from very minor to very hostile behaviour. Basically your imagination is the limit for what someone might do about these prejudiced feelings.
Statistics Finland, Finnish Government, the police and several university studies have made deep dives into this. But if you can show them wrong then by all means, go ahead. But I can provide you the sources for these claims, if you really want to go there.
You're supplying nothing and asking me to disprove it. Fuck right off with that.
And the correct answer as to what those groups are doing with the information is:
Women are generally careful not to offend men.
Racists participate in violence against minorities.
These are not the same thing, and it should be obvious if you're even slightly paying attention.
You yourself already claimed the statistics are "actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it" and now you are indignant that I'm asking you to show your work. But very well, I'll supply the sources first and then perhaps you can tell me how they are "twisted made up bullshit".
Statistics Finland (the national statistical institution): https://www.stat.fi/til/rpk/2018/13/rpk_2018_13_2019-05-16_tie_001_en.html
Government of Finland (pdf): https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/163523/VNTEAS_2021_56.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
University of Helsinki (pdf): https://helda.helsinki.fi/server/api/core/bitstreams/fc2ee0d3-2124-4a65-9afa-f4a12dd42708/content
Have at it. Shouldn't be that hard because you seemingly already are knowledgeable about these stats and know they're bullshit.
Nobody is arguing that all forms and types of prejudice are similar. The argument is that you are using the same arguments for your prejudice as those arguing for race based prejudice. But if your argument really is that the effects from one form of prejudice are better than others so it's fine, then alright. It's just a terrible look and makes it easier for racists to get away with their shit since their reasoning have been already accepted in other contexts.
Okay, so I think you knew this going in, but those are mostly written in Finnish, and since you already know I'm Australian, you probably knew I can't speak Finnish. So like, great job there.
Anyway, of the one that I can actually read, the problem is immediately apparent in the title.
Suspects.
That right there is the problem.
The difference is, racists will take these statistics - which often reveal racist policing and the effects of discrimination rather than saying anything about actual races - and twist them to a racist end, which is usually further violence towards those minorities.
Femicide is a real thing.
The difference is clear, and if you can't see the difference, then maybe you don't actually care about the people that are being hurt, and you only care about the rhetoric. I don't know, but I do know you're missing the point.
I'm not sure where I was supposed to know that from but I was making a claim and I think it was a fair assumption you knew what you were talking about since you dismissed it right away. So having to read Finnish sources about a Finnish topic doesn't seem like too much to ask. I'm not sure how you got to your conclusion before that the stats are “actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it” if you can't speak Finnish and don't know how to translate them. If it was through English language sources, surely you can use them here to help your argument about the stats being bullshit.
Nobody forced you to make a claim that the stats are bullshit without even having checked them.
Not just suspects, as shown in the Government of Finland and University of Helsinki studies. Did you even look at them?
Again something discussed in the studies. Racial bias hasn't been in any study shown to be anywhere near enough as an explanatory factor for having so much higher rate of sexual violence. Another things they've considered were for example poverty, culture, trauma and so on. I think poverty was ruled out as well, since even with racial bias, it still was much too high compared to population average. Some sort of combined factor is what they've considered, but a lot of the studies are unsure what causes it, but studies are very confident that's it's both a real thing and not made up by bias.
Whatever the explanatory factors, same as with men being violent towards women, the discussion is about what the real effect is and if that justifies blanket prejudice.
I've just provided you the studies that show that the much higher than average prevalence for sexual violence among some immigrant groups. It's a real thing. Men being violent against women is a real thing. I care that people are hurt. I'm saying I don't think it would be fair to call all men, in a blanket statement way, violent or call all of the men in certain immigrant groups rapists. It's fucked up imo. I wouldn't exactly blame women for being alert I guess, it's a reaction, but when people are justifying it online it does feel hurtful to be grouped in there. So no wonder people speak up. It's the same with so many types of prejudice, be it because of sex/gender, skin colour, age, whatnot.
Okay, I'm going to explain this:
Whenever you look at a racist trying to use statistics to bolster their worldview, it always winds up being thinly disguised bullshit. Not the statistic, but how they abuse them and pretend they say things they don't. That's a consistent pattern, and your attempts to do the same thing so far don't seem to be any different.
Of course I looked at them. That is how - please read this, and try to internalise it - I knew they were written in Finnish and I couldn't read them. What do you want me to do with them, exactly?
It's muddy and the exact mechanisms aren't clear as to why there are these discrepancies.
The femicide thing is extremely clear.
I didn't say that.
That's all I said initially, and people, including you, are getting all bent out of shape over it.
But you just admitted it was justified to feel that way so like... why don't you like it when people justify it?
And yeah, it hurts. Guess what? Misogyny hurts men too. The answer is not to deny that it exists.
I'm not arguing for racism against any groups. My point is the opposite. Yes the statistics (which you claimed are bullshit but haven't been able to dismiss in any way) show that certain immigrant groups are way overrepresented in sexual violence. Yes, men are more violent towards women than women are towards women. But I specifically don't think it justifies blanket statements and labeling all of them as violent or rapists and definitely wouldn't be surprised if any people from those groups get bothered when such blanket statements are made.
Existence of the higher rate of violence (sexual, physical) is not justified reason imo to label all members of a group as such. That's the whole point.
If you are claiming they are bullshit then I'd prefer you'd show me how. If you can't read them, I suggest translating them or providing stats or studies of your own that show the opposite result or dismiss the earlier stats and studies. Those can be in any language you wish.
If you are claiming my claims are "actually twisted made up bullshit if you look into it", what I'm obviously hoping from you is the explain how. How did you come to that conclusion, is there something about these specific stats, if you perhaps have better ones or studies and or something.
I don't think the exact reasons for that have been made clear, what mix of biology, culture, poverty, misogyny and so on makes it up. Same as the sexual violence case. Hell, a lot of those factors propably overlap. But as said, the end result, these people (men, some immigrant groups etc) are cause of the violence. But the whole point was that while I understand caution (be it towards men in general or just certain men), I think the justification, blanket statements and mocking people who are hurt and alarmed by such blanket statements is bad.
I understand you're only using the statistics to make a point, and I'm explaining that when you look at the specific, actual information that is being revealed, the difference is clear. You seem determined to only look at the aesthetics of using statistics.
And I very easily dismissed the one that I could read. I'm not going to translate everything you send me so I can play whackamole with it, especially when we agree on the fact that the racists are wrong to use these studies. Unless we don't, in which case the fact you have these in your back pocket ready to go really does say something about you, doesn't it?
Oh no! That sounds like you just made a blanket statement that men and immigrants are violent. That's actually something I've never done, unless you can quote me saying that.
You keep talking about these "blanket statements". Which ones? Quote them please. I would like to know what I have said that has got you on this tear about racism and immigration and why it's unfair to talk about statistics or whatever.
It doesn't seem clear to me. What's the actual difference of men having a higher rate of violence towards women and one of those immigrant groups having having higher rate of sexual violence towards women? Both are real, actual things that are concerning for women, but what makes it okay to be prejudiced towards one group as perpetrators but not the another? That's something I don't understand.
Not at all. You saw the word "suspect" and thought it can be dismissed on that basis alone without showing anything for conviction rates. It's an inordinately high rate of suspects and there's an inordinately high rate of those convicted.
I mean, you sure dismissed it I guess, but rather with an argument that doesn't hold much water at all. As the actual statistics show.
It's sorta the whole basis of the discussion, that the behaviour and rhetoric employed here is justified because it is backed up by statistics. I don't think so. You seem to think so, at least in some cases.
If you don't feel like this is one then I'm not sure what it is trying to say:
"Tell me, do you know how likely women are to be killed by men vs the other way around?"
"The problem with “not all men” is that there is an obvious follow up question: “which men?”"
I don't think it's unfair, I think labeling a whole group is.
You said this:
I said this:
Now, if you can't tell the difference here, if you really think I was making a blanket statement that all men are violent, I cannot help you.
You are completely wrong to call those blanket statements. If you're curious to understand what I mean, then I will explain, but you need to say that you are curious to understand me. So far I have seen nothing but pettifoggery. I will not translate that word.
Sounds like you cannot help me since it all sounds like prejudiced behaviour towards a group with statistics being used to justify it.
I mean better late than never. I would've expected that to have been the first thing to have been said here, but instead the whole thing got sidetracked about your doubt towards the statistics.
Oh, what happened to "blanket statements"? Sounds like you've walked that back rather a long way to something a lot more vaguely characterised without any specific things you can point to. Once again you've fallen back on the aesthetics.
So are you or are you not curious to understand what I am saying? I need to hear you say it before I waste another moment on this.