Yup. I'm married with kids, so we need two cars regardless. The commuter just needs to reliably go ~50 miles between charges even during the winter, while the family car needs to fit my wife and kids and go at least 400 miles between charges (we like road trips).
Unfortunately, I haven't found the right fit since EVs are either too expensive, don't have enough winter range (e.g. old Leafs), or have too many safety advisories (e.g. batteries catching fire don't mesh with garage storage). Likewise for family cars. Most current EVs are in the awkward middle: too much range for a commute, and not enough for a road trip.
But if there was an economy car with ~150 miles range and inexpensive batteries, I'd probably buy it.
Yeah, a car that started out with 150 miles of range, has degraded to about 80 miles of range, and is known to be safe would be ideal.
Yup, especially since my workplace has been talking about installing chargers. I don't know when that'll happen, but I'm willing to gamble if I won't need them for a couple years (I might move to another company by then anyway).
batteries catching fire don’t mesh with garage storage
Your gas powered car is more likely to burst into flames than your electric car.
The problems with EV fires are:
they can easily reignite, and traditional firefighting methods don't work
they can happen with a simple puncture, or during charging
there's pretty much no warning sign
Whereas with ICE vehicles:
generally caused by poor maintenance
overheating (major cause) has warning sensors and can generally be avoided
are fairly easy for fire departments to deal with
I was considering getting a Chevy Bolt, but the company's response to charging issues (i.e. don't charge in your garage) killed my enthusiasm for it. Pretty much everything else either costs too much or doesn't have enough range. I'd really rather not spend much more than $20k on a car, but the used market has been bonkers.
I think we still need more time/data to get the whole picture. EVs are still in their early stages.
It would be interesting to look at fire rates for vehicles at rest. These types of fires have the potential to become quite serious, as they are often not immediately noticed, especially if the vehicle is parked in a garage or remote area. This additional time allows the fire to spread and intensify.
Since EV fires are typically more intense than ICE vehicles, we should expect EV fires to cause more damage to the surroundings and to spread faster. Though, this danger could be offset if EVs have a lower probability of self ignition.
We should also look at fires while refueling/charging. Lithium cells are most dangerous when charging and discharging. While an overfilled gas tank is easy to spot and may catch fire, a continually overcharged battery is invisible and will catch fire. Also, because of the long charge time of batteries, many EV owners leave the vehicle unattended while charging and would not immediately notice a fire if one were to occur. In addition, EVs are often charged at home, in close proximity to residences and other vehicles, and often within garages. These residential locations do not have the same fire safety requirements and suppression systems as gas stations, so a vehicle fire at home is already much more dangerous and has the potential to severely damage your home.
We have had a century to figure out ICE, but it's still very early days for EVs, so only time will tell.
Of course this could all be addressed by designing robust systems that implement strong redundancy, safety checks, and sufficient regulation, but that increases complexity and costs money.
The Volt was really good for this - 50 miles electric and 430 miles gas on a 7 gallon tank.
Unfortunately, PHEVs fell out of fashion in 2018 and are only just coming back into style. I think the Prius is the only comparable car on the market that manages this. The Kia Niro is also looking reasonably good with a 34 mile EV range.
But if there was an economy car with ~150 miles range and inexpensive batteries, I’d probably buy it.
Both are in the $30-$40k range new. You can find a 2017 Chevy Volt for $16k (and I seriously can't recommend it enough).
I have a non-plugin Prius, and it works really well as a commuter. I got it for $10k like 10 years ago, and it has needed very little maintenance and still gets 45-ish MPG (highway speeds here are 70mph, and I usually go a few mph over).
Ideally, I'd go pure electric for the next one so I'd never need to go to the gas station again. A PHEV means I still need to use some gas since I highly doubt I'd get 50 miles range on our high speed highways, especially if the car is older.
But yeah, seeing the prices going down is good news. The EV discount for used EVs is doing a lot of work.
Ev discount for used ev's?
US tax credit.
On buying used ones? Really? What if it's a private party sale?
Only from dealers, which sucks because dealers can just hike the price a bit to account for the credit.
Darn. At least it's something, I guess.
Yup. If it applied to private sales, I'd definitely get one. I just really hate dealing with dealers, so each of my last three cars have been from private parties. I tried dealers each time, and left with a bad impression.
Most of the EVs in local classifieds are from dealers, probably because of the tax credit.
What's hard now is finding a private sale from the vehicles actual owner. Thanks to Facebook and lazy half assed pieces of crap, almost every cheap used car listed on Facebook marketplace is one being flipped instead of one being sold by a long term owner.
Fortunately, my area has our own local classifieds that are used by a lot of locals, and owners very frequently sell their cars there. The problem is that, since the credits only apply to dealerships, they end up being about the same price or maybe more expensive than the dealers, which is bonkers.
So even if you find someone who is honest and the original owner, it'll probably be more expensive through them because the dealers get a tax cut (which is supposed to go to you...).
Yup. I'm married with kids, so we need two cars regardless. The commuter just needs to reliably go ~50 miles between charges even during the winter, while the family car needs to fit my wife and kids and go at least 400 miles between charges (we like road trips).
Unfortunately, I haven't found the right fit since EVs are either too expensive, don't have enough winter range (e.g. old Leafs), or have too many safety advisories (e.g. batteries catching fire don't mesh with garage storage). Likewise for family cars. Most current EVs are in the awkward middle: too much range for a commute, and not enough for a road trip.
But if there was an economy car with ~150 miles range and inexpensive batteries, I'd probably buy it.
Yeah, a car that started out with 150 miles of range, has degraded to about 80 miles of range, and is known to be safe would be ideal.
Yup, especially since my workplace has been talking about installing chargers. I don't know when that'll happen, but I'm willing to gamble if I won't need them for a couple years (I might move to another company by then anyway).
Your gas powered car is more likely to burst into flames than your electric car.
The problems with EV fires are:
Whereas with ICE vehicles:
I was considering getting a Chevy Bolt, but the company's response to charging issues (i.e. don't charge in your garage) killed my enthusiasm for it. Pretty much everything else either costs too much or doesn't have enough range. I'd really rather not spend much more than $20k on a car, but the used market has been bonkers.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
I think we still need more time/data to get the whole picture. EVs are still in their early stages.
It would be interesting to look at fire rates for vehicles at rest. These types of fires have the potential to become quite serious, as they are often not immediately noticed, especially if the vehicle is parked in a garage or remote area. This additional time allows the fire to spread and intensify.
Since EV fires are typically more intense than ICE vehicles, we should expect EV fires to cause more damage to the surroundings and to spread faster. Though, this danger could be offset if EVs have a lower probability of self ignition.
We should also look at fires while refueling/charging. Lithium cells are most dangerous when charging and discharging. While an overfilled gas tank is easy to spot and may catch fire, a continually overcharged battery is invisible and will catch fire. Also, because of the long charge time of batteries, many EV owners leave the vehicle unattended while charging and would not immediately notice a fire if one were to occur. In addition, EVs are often charged at home, in close proximity to residences and other vehicles, and often within garages. These residential locations do not have the same fire safety requirements and suppression systems as gas stations, so a vehicle fire at home is already much more dangerous and has the potential to severely damage your home.
We have had a century to figure out ICE, but it's still very early days for EVs, so only time will tell.
Of course this could all be addressed by designing robust systems that implement strong redundancy, safety checks, and sufficient regulation, but that increases complexity and costs money.
The Volt was really good for this - 50 miles electric and 430 miles gas on a 7 gallon tank.
Unfortunately, PHEVs fell out of fashion in 2018 and are only just coming back into style. I think the Prius is the only comparable car on the market that manages this. The Kia Niro is also looking reasonably good with a 34 mile EV range.
Both are in the $30-$40k range new. You can find a 2017 Chevy Volt for $16k (and I seriously can't recommend it enough).
I have a non-plugin Prius, and it works really well as a commuter. I got it for $10k like 10 years ago, and it has needed very little maintenance and still gets 45-ish MPG (highway speeds here are 70mph, and I usually go a few mph over).
Ideally, I'd go pure electric for the next one so I'd never need to go to the gas station again. A PHEV means I still need to use some gas since I highly doubt I'd get 50 miles range on our high speed highways, especially if the car is older.
But yeah, seeing the prices going down is good news. The EV discount for used EVs is doing a lot of work.
Ev discount for used ev's?
US tax credit.
On buying used ones? Really? What if it's a private party sale?
Only from dealers, which sucks because dealers can just hike the price a bit to account for the credit.
Darn. At least it's something, I guess.
Yup. If it applied to private sales, I'd definitely get one. I just really hate dealing with dealers, so each of my last three cars have been from private parties. I tried dealers each time, and left with a bad impression.
Most of the EVs in local classifieds are from dealers, probably because of the tax credit.
What's hard now is finding a private sale from the vehicles actual owner. Thanks to Facebook and lazy half assed pieces of crap, almost every cheap used car listed on Facebook marketplace is one being flipped instead of one being sold by a long term owner.
Fortunately, my area has our own local classifieds that are used by a lot of locals, and owners very frequently sell their cars there. The problem is that, since the credits only apply to dealerships, they end up being about the same price or maybe more expensive than the dealers, which is bonkers.
So even if you find someone who is honest and the original owner, it'll probably be more expensive through them because the dealers get a tax cut (which is supposed to go to you...).