USA doesn’t control the source of the problem, which are random-ass civil wars that occur in Central America or South America.
Interesting, if largely incorrect opinion.
When your country supports multiple international coups because of a fruit company.
#SoRandomLOL
What fruit company existed in Venezuela that's related to today's (largely) Venezuelan migrant population?
Hint: you're talking about the wrong portion of the world if we're focusing on today's migrant crisis. Venezuela was oil and has a completely different set of circumstances than you might believe.
2018 was Northern Triangle that at least is somewhat related to fruit company (albeit a hundred years later, but whatever. If you want to ignore modern history so much so bet it, at least you're somewhat correct for the Northern Triangle migrants). But 2024 is Venezuelan migrants under a completely separate issue.
My joke was primarily about previous vintages where US policy was a direct factor resulting in later waves of immigration. I wasn't talking specifically about Venezuela or anywhere really. The later immigration appears 'random' only because of a superficial analysis of US policy and its consequences.
I mean you can point to like.. maybe all of US policy towards Venezuela post 1998 in this same light. Sanctions, election interference, etc.. This isn't to say that the US controls the worlds destiny, but I would say peak US hegemony was maybe 2005-2010? Like we're definitely on the other side of that, but it had its consequences.
I mean you can point to like… maybe all of US policy towards Venezuela post 1998 in this same light.
And completely ignore Hugo Chavez? Why? Hugo Chavez actually was in charge of Venezuela for the bulk of the period you're talking about.
I know that Lemmy is filled with Marxists who want to have as favorable of a viewpoint of Communism as possible. But... uhhhh... Hugo Chavez and his successor haven't exactly made Venezuela into a utopia.
What I do know, is decades of Hugo Chavez (and now Maduro) rule has led into Venezuela's current predicaments. And that's directly led, as in these are the people who actually controlled the country and built it up for what it is over the last nearly 30 years.
USA has foreign policy influence for sure, but the bulk of Venezuela's problems are Venezuala's alone to deal with. We aren't responsible for the vast majority of decisions over there.
But whatever. If those migrant waves are coming to USA looking for hopes, dreams and opportunity, I'm on their side. There's benefits to accepting the dreamers who make such a long trip. We have housing issues to deal with (and other population issues), but we can probably afford letting some of them in.
And completely ignore Hugo Chavez? Why?
It didnt work for the joke.
The "Northern Triangle" migrants of 2018 (El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras) had nothing to do with any US Policy. We had to deal with the major wave of immigrants anyway. https://sgp.fas.org/crs/row/IF11151.pdf
Today's wave of migrants is the 2024 ongoing collapse of Venezuela. Which is everything to do with shitty Venezuelan politics, and again nothing to do with the USA.
I'm well aware of Banana Republics of decades ago. But its rather stupid to blame everything on the USA when the recent migrant wave has more to do with local issues like MS-13 (2018 era), or the handoff of Hugo Chávez to Nicolás Maduro (Venezuela).
I don't think I wanna ask the US "congressional research service" about the effects of US imperialism. Something tells me they have a bias, but I can't quite put my finger on why.
And bullshit from Central American nationalists who have dumbass conspiracy theories about CIA boogiemen aren't exactly a good source of information either. I know that Venezuela wants to blame everyone else for their problems, but their arguments don't even pass the barest of muster.
We all know what the USA was focused on in the last 30 years. The bulk of US effort was in Afghanistan, Iraq/Syria, with more recent focus on Ukraine, China, and now Israel.
Blaming the USA for random ass shit that happens in I dunno, Venezuela's shitty socialist takeover of their energy grid (leading into large-scale blackouts) and trying to tie US Policy to that is... well... a conspiracy theory. Sure, nationalists from beyond our southern border can believe whatever the fuck they want, but I'll call them out on the bullshit. Venezuela fucked their own country over, and we're doing those migrants a favor by letting them in.
I'm happy for us to do our duty to take in those who qualify for sanctuary, or otherwise need such assistance. But USA has other concerns that we still need to balance against that (such as our housing shortage, that'd be complicated with more migrants). I think we can make it work in any case but its not going to be easy (or politically easy at that to even decide on a path forward).
In any case, letting in a bunch of US haters would be against my policy anyway. There's too many people in line as it is, so if they don't want to accept the USA's side of the story, they can just stay out of our country.
What's going on in the world and what you choose to pay attention to are two very different things.
The reforms, which included nationalizing key components of the nation’s economy as part of an agenda of socialist uplift, made Chávez a hero to millions of people and the enemy of Venezuela’s oligarchs.
Lulz. You mean led to the large scale blackouts of an energy rich / oil rich nation. Amirite?
That's a laughably inaccurate document you've got there. Clearly socialist / Marxist propaganda. But lets say, hypothetically, that you took away the electrical networks from the people who knew how to run them... directly leading to widespread power outages within a year, leading to a loss of industry and migrant waves to escape the country.
And you want to blame the USA for this? While also rewarding those who made such dumbass moves in their country?
LOL. Do you actually think the US experience with privately run electrical grids are well run?
Your grasp of the dynamics that impacted Venezuela are driven entirely by simplistic propaganda. I'm not taking on the task of educating you while you fight with nonsense at every turn. I've led a horses ass to water. If the ass shits in it, that's just what asses do.
LOL. Do you actually think the US experience with privately run electrical grids are well run?
With all due respect, that's 7+ million migrants who are leaving Venezuela who very much disagrees with your opinion on that subject.
Yes. Our electrical grid is better than Venezuela. And if you really want to choose this hill to die on, be my guest. But this is really weird for you to get a hard on to the marxist/socialist utopia that is Venezuela. Methinks you'll have a better job talking about other locations of the world and taking your L here before you get too wrapped up in the peculiarities of this debate.
Your grasp of the dynamics that impacted Venezuela are driven entirely by simplistic propaganda. I’m not taking on the task of educating you while you fight with nonsense at every turn. I’ve led a horses ass to water. If the ass shits in it, that’s just what asses do.
That's fine. My goal here is to demonstrate that Venezuela's system is so shit its causing a massive migration wave to come to the USA.
We need to be aware of the migrant population's situation and understand their story. Each migrant wave is different. In the next 4+ years, whenever the next migrant wave comes, it will be a new story from a new country. If you want to get caught up in the peculiarities of Marxist Leninist theories of these failed countries, be my guest. Or... not get caught up. Whatever you want, its fine.
We got migrants to worry about. So all that's off topic anyway. But I'm generally willing to bet against the country that all these migrants are leaving from.
I mean, how much of the power of gangs in US, Mexico, CA, SA, is a direct result of US drug policy?
I mean, the biggest thing indirectly being caused by the USA is maybe climate change, which has caused waves of famine, drought, hurricanes... and further disasters like Volcanic Erruptions wrecked the Northern Triangle in the 2010s. This all culminated in a temporary migrant wave under the Trump administration.
But that is not Biden's issue today. Biden's issue is largely one of Venezuelan in origin because of all that other crap happening totally elsewhere for completely different reasons.
I know people want to pretend that the USA had some major role to play in all of this, but its just bullshit. We had some major events about 100 years to 50 years ago. But we all know where the bulk of modern USA has been (and that's in the Middle East, at least since 2000s).
Do you think the sanctions had some impact?
Not as much as the 7 million emigrants who left Venezuela for other countries.
I keep coming back to the power outages of recent years in Venezuela because they're indicative of everything that's going wrong. Venezuela doesn't have enough technicians who even know how to fix the energy grid, because the vast majority of them left for other countries. Yes, some of them are migrants who are entering USA, but also countries like Panama or Mexico.
When your country suffers from huge emigrant waves, especially emigrants who were statistically the smartest and most well-educated of the country... bad shit begins to happen.
Not as much as the 7 million emigrants who left Venezuela for other countries.
Why do you think they left?
Among many other things, electricity stopped working in any reliable fashion, leading to major issues internally.
Electricity stopped working because of decades of corruption of the Chavez / Maduro Regime, which forcibly took over the electrical grid and installed corrupt officials. No matter how much money Chavez pumped into the energy grid, it was all wasted in corruption.
The people who knew how to run the grid were then replaced by Maduro (albeit yeah, they were corrupt but... they at least knew how to run the system), and then shit really started to crazy because no one knew how to run the grid anymore and rolling blackouts became regular.
Lather rinse repeat for every other element of society. Remember that Venezuela is an oil state with plenty of energy reserves. They have plenty of chemical energy, its literally just the lack of brain that's collapsing their society right now.
Ironically, electricity was more reliable when the USA's AES Corporation owned the Electricidad de Caracas. So ummmm... maybe we should have pushed for more US intervention on this particular issue.
From a USA perspective: the migrants include the energy specialists who used to run Venezuela's energy. But are now frustrated at this situation to the point that they're leaving the country. Its to our benefit to capture those talented individuals and integrate them into our society. So Venezuela's loss can serve as our gain if we play our cards right.
Interesting, if largely incorrect opinion.
When your country supports multiple international coups because of a fruit company.
#SoRandomLOL
What fruit company existed in Venezuela that's related to today's (largely) Venezuelan migrant population?
Hint: you're talking about the wrong portion of the world if we're focusing on today's migrant crisis. Venezuela was oil and has a completely different set of circumstances than you might believe.
2018 was Northern Triangle that at least is somewhat related to fruit company (albeit a hundred years later, but whatever. If you want to ignore modern history so much so bet it, at least you're somewhat correct for the Northern Triangle migrants). But 2024 is Venezuelan migrants under a completely separate issue.
My joke was primarily about previous vintages where US policy was a direct factor resulting in later waves of immigration. I wasn't talking specifically about Venezuela or anywhere really. The later immigration appears 'random' only because of a superficial analysis of US policy and its consequences.
I mean you can point to like.. maybe all of US policy towards Venezuela post 1998 in this same light. Sanctions, election interference, etc.. This isn't to say that the US controls the worlds destiny, but I would say peak US hegemony was maybe 2005-2010? Like we're definitely on the other side of that, but it had its consequences.
And completely ignore Hugo Chavez? Why? Hugo Chavez actually was in charge of Venezuela for the bulk of the period you're talking about.
I know that Lemmy is filled with Marxists who want to have as favorable of a viewpoint of Communism as possible. But... uhhhh... Hugo Chavez and his successor haven't exactly made Venezuela into a utopia.
What I do know, is decades of Hugo Chavez (and now Maduro) rule has led into Venezuela's current predicaments. And that's directly led, as in these are the people who actually controlled the country and built it up for what it is over the last nearly 30 years.
USA has foreign policy influence for sure, but the bulk of Venezuela's problems are Venezuala's alone to deal with. We aren't responsible for the vast majority of decisions over there.
But whatever. If those migrant waves are coming to USA looking for hopes, dreams and opportunity, I'm on their side. There's benefits to accepting the dreamers who make such a long trip. We have housing issues to deal with (and other population issues), but we can probably afford letting some of them in.
It didnt work for the joke.
The "Northern Triangle" migrants of 2018 (El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras) had nothing to do with any US Policy. We had to deal with the major wave of immigrants anyway. https://sgp.fas.org/crs/row/IF11151.pdf
Today's wave of migrants is the 2024 ongoing collapse of Venezuela. Which is everything to do with shitty Venezuelan politics, and again nothing to do with the USA.
I'm well aware of Banana Republics of decades ago. But its rather stupid to blame everything on the USA when the recent migrant wave has more to do with local issues like MS-13 (2018 era), or the handoff of Hugo Chávez to Nicolás Maduro (Venezuela).
I don't think I wanna ask the US "congressional research service" about the effects of US imperialism. Something tells me they have a bias, but I can't quite put my finger on why.
And bullshit from Central American nationalists who have dumbass conspiracy theories about CIA boogiemen aren't exactly a good source of information either. I know that Venezuela wants to blame everyone else for their problems, but their arguments don't even pass the barest of muster.
We all know what the USA was focused on in the last 30 years. The bulk of US effort was in Afghanistan, Iraq/Syria, with more recent focus on Ukraine, China, and now Israel.
Blaming the USA for random ass shit that happens in I dunno, Venezuela's shitty socialist takeover of their energy grid (leading into large-scale blackouts) and trying to tie US Policy to that is... well... a conspiracy theory. Sure, nationalists from beyond our southern border can believe whatever the fuck they want, but I'll call them out on the bullshit. Venezuela fucked their own country over, and we're doing those migrants a favor by letting them in.
I'm happy for us to do our duty to take in those who qualify for sanctuary, or otherwise need such assistance. But USA has other concerns that we still need to balance against that (such as our housing shortage, that'd be complicated with more migrants). I think we can make it work in any case but its not going to be easy (or politically easy at that to even decide on a path forward).
In any case, letting in a bunch of US haters would be against my policy anyway. There's too many people in line as it is, so if they don't want to accept the USA's side of the story, they can just stay out of our country.
What's going on in the world and what you choose to pay attention to are two very different things.
https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14263/
Lulz. You mean led to the large scale blackouts of an energy rich / oil rich nation. Amirite?
That's a laughably inaccurate document you've got there. Clearly socialist / Marxist propaganda. But lets say, hypothetically, that you took away the electrical networks from the people who knew how to run them... directly leading to widespread power outages within a year, leading to a loss of industry and migrant waves to escape the country.
And you want to blame the USA for this? While also rewarding those who made such dumbass moves in their country?
LOL. Do you actually think the US experience with privately run electrical grids are well run?
Your grasp of the dynamics that impacted Venezuela are driven entirely by simplistic propaganda. I'm not taking on the task of educating you while you fight with nonsense at every turn. I've led a horses ass to water. If the ass shits in it, that's just what asses do.
With all due respect, that's 7+ million migrants who are leaving Venezuela who very much disagrees with your opinion on that subject.
Yes. Our electrical grid is better than Venezuela. And if you really want to choose this hill to die on, be my guest. But this is really weird for you to get a hard on to the marxist/socialist utopia that is Venezuela. Methinks you'll have a better job talking about other locations of the world and taking your L here before you get too wrapped up in the peculiarities of this debate.
That's fine. My goal here is to demonstrate that Venezuela's system is so shit its causing a massive migration wave to come to the USA.
We need to be aware of the migrant population's situation and understand their story. Each migrant wave is different. In the next 4+ years, whenever the next migrant wave comes, it will be a new story from a new country. If you want to get caught up in the peculiarities of Marxist Leninist theories of these failed countries, be my guest. Or... not get caught up. Whatever you want, its fine.
We got migrants to worry about. So all that's off topic anyway. But I'm generally willing to bet against the country that all these migrants are leaving from.
I mean, how much of the power of gangs in US, Mexico, CA, SA, is a direct result of US drug policy?
I mean, the biggest thing indirectly being caused by the USA is maybe climate change, which has caused waves of famine, drought, hurricanes... and further disasters like Volcanic Erruptions wrecked the Northern Triangle in the 2010s. This all culminated in a temporary migrant wave under the Trump administration.
But that is not Biden's issue today. Biden's issue is largely one of Venezuelan in origin because of all that other crap happening totally elsewhere for completely different reasons.
I know people want to pretend that the USA had some major role to play in all of this, but its just bullshit. We had some major events about 100 years to 50 years ago. But we all know where the bulk of modern USA has been (and that's in the Middle East, at least since 2000s).
Do you think the sanctions had some impact?
Not as much as the 7 million emigrants who left Venezuela for other countries.
I keep coming back to the power outages of recent years in Venezuela because they're indicative of everything that's going wrong. Venezuela doesn't have enough technicians who even know how to fix the energy grid, because the vast majority of them left for other countries. Yes, some of them are migrants who are entering USA, but also countries like Panama or Mexico.
When your country suffers from huge emigrant waves, especially emigrants who were statistically the smartest and most well-educated of the country... bad shit begins to happen.
Why do you think they left?
Among many other things, electricity stopped working in any reliable fashion, leading to major issues internally.
Electricity stopped working because of decades of corruption of the Chavez / Maduro Regime, which forcibly took over the electrical grid and installed corrupt officials. No matter how much money Chavez pumped into the energy grid, it was all wasted in corruption.
The people who knew how to run the grid were then replaced by Maduro (albeit yeah, they were corrupt but... they at least knew how to run the system), and then shit really started to crazy because no one knew how to run the grid anymore and rolling blackouts became regular.
Lather rinse repeat for every other element of society. Remember that Venezuela is an oil state with plenty of energy reserves. They have plenty of chemical energy, its literally just the lack of brain that's collapsing their society right now.
Ironically, electricity was more reliable when the USA's AES Corporation owned the Electricidad de Caracas. So ummmm... maybe we should have pushed for more US intervention on this particular issue.
From a USA perspective: the migrants include the energy specialists who used to run Venezuela's energy. But are now frustrated at this situation to the point that they're leaving the country. Its to our benefit to capture those talented individuals and integrate them into our society. So Venezuela's loss can serve as our gain if we play our cards right.