Israel’s obstruction of investigation into 7 October rape allegations risks truth never being found, advocates warn
middleeastmonitor.com
Israel’s leadership is pushing the allegations that Hamas fighters raped Israeli women during the October 7 attacks for its own political objectives while the government’s ongoing refusal to allow the United Nations to conduct a full investigation into the matter threatens to hinder any evidence, advocates have warned.
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Rape does not happen during an attack it happens after. See israel raping Palestinians in their concentration camps.
Hamas certainly isn't going to drop their weapons with Apache helicopters and rockets flying overhead to rape a blown up bodies in a car.
If Hamas would be raping people it would be the kidnapped hostages. Yet that rescued hostage from yesterday did not look very pregnant.
I said I wasn't going to indefinitely play the game of you saying total bullshit and me citing sources for why it's wrong, because going back and forth with it too many times usually isn't a good use of time, but for some reason this one irritated me all afresh.
I(17) from the report, page 5: "With respect to hostages, the mission team found clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing."
Tell me what that information is. Surely you have evidence to present.
Since I already cited a few entries out of the UN report to you, I'm gonna make this one into one of those "exercise for the reader" type of things. Like teaching a man to fish. In what entry in the table of contents to the report do you think the answer to this question might be contained?
I realize you will have to read most of the whole first page of the document to find it, but I believe in you. Hold your focus. Persevere.
You didn't cite any evidence you just posted the summary.
What information is used to come to those conclusions in the summary? It's in the report surely you've read it right?
I sent you a link to the full report. Maybe that needs to be the first part of your challenge then: Finding the link to the report, and then finding the table of contents, and then identifying which entry in the table of contents might contain the answer to your question.
Do you really not want to take on the challenge of finding it? I am trying to help you become more capable with sources and verification procedures. I wasn't expecting finding the report that I sent the link to to be the hard part, but I honestly don't think any part of it should be altogether super-challenging.
I already read the report and stated what is in it. You are the person claiming differently so link the part where they had anything other than witnesses to present.
What page of the report did you read that dealt with hostages?
Not that I don't believe you; I just have forgotten, and I want you to remind me so I can reference it really quick so we can continue the conversation.
Can you cite the evidence or are you going to keep asking questions about page numbers?
I'm gonna quit being a sarcastic dickhead for a second to take this question seriously.
I already gave citations of evidence -- a link to the report with some criticisms of what the article was saying was literally my first comment here, and then after that, I responded to questions usually with page numbers or section citations or quotations (examples here, here, and here).
But that made absolutely no difference to how you reacted. You continued to make 100% wrong claims about what was in the report, and didn't react substantively to the demonstrations that what you were already saying were wrong.
As I said, I don't feel like simply continuing that cycle of me providing citations and you continuing to blandly argue wildly wrong things like this. I decided to try a different tactic of asking you about the citations, providing enough hints that you should easily be able to find them in the report you claim to have read. I'm actually pretty happy with it, since it breaks the cycle of "duck season" "rabbit season" "duck season" and so on, and throws it into sharp relief when you're pointedly ignoring some kind of evidence that disproves your case.
Honestly, I'm happy with the result so far. I think it's a lot more effective at highlighting the fact that you're not actually interested in looking up information, or checking these wild claims you're making against some kind of objective basis.
So. Are you sure you don't feel like looking in the table of contents of the link I sent you, and locating the specific section which might possibly contain the answer to your question? There is, really, only one entry that qualifies. It should be very easy.
Of course, you could also pretend that someone me sending you the link and telling you to look in the table of contents near the bottom of the first page and you will probably find the information you seek, represents me not giving you a citation. You can claim that. It is your right. I will not stop you.
Once again a wall of text without evidence. I am wondering why I am taking the time to even read this.
You seem to be unable to discern between a conclusion and the evidence for said conclusion. One cannot come to a conclusion without evidence for it.
What information is used to come to the conclusion in the UN paragraphs you are linking?
Yeah, sure, my lack of posting documents with detailed explanations of what the evidence was, and pointing to where within those documents you can find that information -- that's the problem here. How could I not have seen it 🙂. I can only hope to do better in the future.
(Pages 8-11 cover the standards of proof and methodology employed in general, and of course each subsection discusses briefly what specific evidence was employed in reaching the conclusions of that section.)
Here's the link to the report. I sent it to you already, but maybe it was eaten by a bear in transit.
Hey, quick question -- you seemed to say that the report covered only the festival itself, as part of an argument where it would be impossible for rape to even have occurred because apparently attacking the festival was an active firefight and not a terrorist attack on a helpless and terrified civilian population. What are the five subsections of III(c)1 that come after the first one (festival and surroundings), please? I am testing your reading comprehension and ability to follow links to evidence, since you seem to be having a great deal of difficulty in doing so.
I did not ask you which factors were taken into consideration I asked you which factors were used as evidence for the conclusion of the report. Which the UN refuses to use as evidence that Hamas committed rape.
Consider reading https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/pramila-pattens-rape-fantasies instead of the UN report. Legalese proves too difficult for some.
Out of order. You can easily make the same point without resorting to perpetuating a misogynist myth about rape.
“Out of order” is not quite a strong enough reaction for “We found a woman who doesn’t look pregnant as far as I can tell so that means that her and all the other women definitely didn’t get raped, so stop worrying about it”
Did you really just try and claim that rape doesn't happen during active and protracted urban combat...?
Also, while I agree that of the attackers that day, the Hamas forces were the least likely culprits due to training and defined mission objectives, they weren't the only people to enter Israel after the barriers were breached. That doesn't mean they didn't, just that I think there are other scenarios with a higher probability.
And last, I'm not really sure if you're being intentionally honest with your retelling of events, or if you really just don't know that much about the scope and duration of the attack. Either way, you don't really have a firm grasp enough to speak on this with any sort of authority, certainly not with the confidence you seem to have.
Since empathy with brown people appears to be impossible let's switch it up a bit.
Let's say the IDF kidnaps a Palestinian. Do they stick an electrified stick in their ass while in a firefight with Hamas, or do they kidnap the Palestinian back to base and then rape them?
Thanks for clearing that up, you're being intentionally disingenuous.
Never have I defended the IDF, nor have I condemned any Palestinian combatants.
I certainly never expressed any skepticism about the genocide or sexual violence that does appear to be deliberately systemic within the IDF, or at minimum, widely tolerated up the chain.
So, with that out of the way. Re-read my comments, and then decide to engage honestly, or just go and try and peddle your uninformed garbage somewhere else.
I am saying that nobody rapes during combat in the middle of a firefight. Being in mortal danger is not a huge turn on.
The rape if it happens, happens after a victim is extracted to a safe location or an area is fully captured.
Same for the rapes that happened in Ukraine. There were no rapes during combat that happens after all combat is over.
It's telling that you think a multi-day combat operation over a geographically dispersed area is just one very long firefight.
It sounds like you're basing this off a mixture of movies, television, and your gut.
I think they are basing it off the conclusion that they have already decided that they want to reach
There were some stragglers playing hide and seek but the operation was mostly over the second the IDF copters shows up which was within 24 hours.
The "witness allegations" which turned out to be untrue were during the main raid including the festival. The UN report allegations also pertain to the festival. These were the earliest hours.
The only one basing things off their gut is people claiming they have evidence of rape which they clearly don't have.
Quick question, since you're clearly familiar with the report: Section III(c)1 is divided into 6 different subsections, of which the first is the festival and surrounding areas. What are the other 5 subsections?
I can start to give some hints if you have trouble answering this question. There's also III(c)2 and 3 but I already asked some questions about III(c)2.
(That was another hint, a big one, to one of my earlier questions you still seem to be having some trouble with.)
So, you don't feel like checking III(c)1 to verify your claim that the UN report pertains only to the festival? I am trying to make it easy for you to learn how to check your claims against sources, but you do not seem eager to develop your skills in this area.
What concentration camps? What are you talking about? You are literally just making this up.
These ones
It looks like you sent the wrong link. This article is related to prison abuse and has nothing to with concentration camps.
Not surprising, since as I said, they do not exist.