Israel’s obstruction of investigation into 7 October rape allegations risks truth never being found, advocates warn
middleeastmonitor.com
Israel’s leadership is pushing the allegations that Hamas fighters raped Israeli women during the October 7 attacks for its own political objectives while the government’s ongoing refusal to allow the United Nations to conduct a full investigation into the matter threatens to hinder any evidence, advocates have warned.
That should tell you the answer right there. A state that has overtly lied to cover its own action in their ongoing genocide, that has painted their enemy as fascists have always tried to paint their enemies, is saying one thing and refusing to offer proof and refusing to allow the matter to be investigated.
It didn’t happen.
Not to mention, they were caught pushing the story in the NYT to begin with, which is where the rumor started. I don’t need any more proof that it didn’t happen like they say it did.
Rape happens in war. I don't believe it was used systemically on Oct. 7, as Israel claims, or at least, there's no evidence of that.
However, to claim that no one was raped during an attack that long and protracted, and with so many people involved, defies history and the realities of conflict.
What's worse, anyone claiming "no rapes happened" as a counter to "it was systemically used", means that a single case of rape invalidates their claim, and by default, bolsters Israel's lie.
Right. As I was writing, I changed the definitive final sentence to a less definitive “it didn’t happen as they said it happened.” I never said there was no rape whatsoever.
Unfortunately rape is used in war. You’re right about that. Both sides are allegedly using it as a tactic. But their story was systematic rape used as terror on Oct 7 was a lie.
The OP article makes a big deal, too, about this distinction between Israeli women who were raped by Hamas fighters because the Hamas fighters wanted to rape, as opposed to because their commanders told them to go out and rape. I'm not sure that's a super impactful distinction. Why do you think it's an important distinction?
(Actually, the OP article says something stupider than that; it says that "some reports have asserted that those acts and other reported atrocities were committed by civilians and those not affiliated" with Hamas, without explaining what the fuck they're even talking about, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and dealing mostly with their treatment that it's important whether or not Hamas "ordered it" to happen, which is still stupid to me but not transparently absurd like the idea that unaffiliated civilians suddenly started coming in and raping all these Israeli women at the same time that the October 7th attacks were going on.)
There's a huge difference between isolated incidents, and the systemic use of rape as a weapon of war.
One's a regular criminal offense, and the other is Hague War Crime Tribal level of offense.
Not even slightly. Or, I mean, not for quite a while; the treatment of rape in war has evolved past what you are describing since quite some time ago.
Then in 2008, the UN took the fairly sensible when you think about it step of saying that if you are fielding an army, and that army is raping people with any regularity, then that is your problem i.e. a crime against humanity and you don't get to mount the defense that you didn't tell them to, and so it's not your problem if it is happening.
Your viewpoint is disgusting and explicitly rape-apologist, as well as in this case legally incorrect.
Are you relying to the wrong the wrong comment? Or did you just not read mine correctly...?
Before I lay into the absurdity of your response as it relates to my comment, please double check.
Because it should be obvious that my comment adheres to the UN charter you reference and I never claimed that systemic only includes weaponized rape ordered through the chain of command.
You said that a soldier raping a civilian is a regular criminal offense. I cited the UN resolution that says among other things:
I mean, it's possible that we're saying the same thing; sort of contingent on what you mean exactly by "isolated incidents". I am saying that widespread rape on October 7th is indicative of a war crime regardless of whether approval for it came through Hamas's chain of command. Is that what you're saying?
This is the other thing that's weird about the "it was all debunked" side. So, they invaded the music festival, shot a bunch of people including plenty of women and children, hauled away a bunch of hostages, burned up some homes, and yet, nobody raped anybody. Just didn't happen. That's a red line that these music-festival-goer-shooters adhered to absolutely without fail.
The Israeli government does much worse, unprovoked, and much more systematically. But that doesn't mean all of a sudden that you have to say every bad thing about Israel is true and every bad thing about Hamas is false, and these people who invaded a music festival and shot more than a thousand innocent people are these noble paladins you have to protect the right and honor of.
Rape does not happen during an attack it happens after. See israel raping Palestinians in their concentration camps.
Hamas certainly isn't going to drop their weapons with Apache helicopters and rockets flying overhead to rape a blown up bodies in a car.
If Hamas would be raping people it would be the kidnapped hostages. Yet that rescued hostage from yesterday did not look very pregnant.
I said I wasn't going to indefinitely play the game of you saying total bullshit and me citing sources for why it's wrong, because going back and forth with it too many times usually isn't a good use of time, but for some reason this one irritated me all afresh.
I(17) from the report, page 5: "With respect to hostages, the mission team found clear and convincing information that some have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing."
Tell me what that information is. Surely you have evidence to present.
Since I already cited a few entries out of the UN report to you, I'm gonna make this one into one of those "exercise for the reader" type of things. Like teaching a man to fish. In what entry in the table of contents to the report do you think the answer to this question might be contained?
I realize you will have to read most of the whole first page of the document to find it, but I believe in you. Hold your focus. Persevere.
You didn't cite any evidence you just posted the summary.
What information is used to come to those conclusions in the summary? It's in the report surely you've read it right?
I sent you a link to the full report. Maybe that needs to be the first part of your challenge then: Finding the link to the report, and then finding the table of contents, and then identifying which entry in the table of contents might contain the answer to your question.
Do you really not want to take on the challenge of finding it? I am trying to help you become more capable with sources and verification procedures. I wasn't expecting finding the report that I sent the link to to be the hard part, but I honestly don't think any part of it should be altogether super-challenging.
I already read the report and stated what is in it. You are the person claiming differently so link the part where they had anything other than witnesses to present.
What page of the report did you read that dealt with hostages?
Not that I don't believe you; I just have forgotten, and I want you to remind me so I can reference it really quick so we can continue the conversation.
Can you cite the evidence or are you going to keep asking questions about page numbers?
Out of order. You can easily make the same point without resorting to perpetuating a misogynist myth about rape.
“Out of order” is not quite a strong enough reaction for “We found a woman who doesn’t look pregnant as far as I can tell so that means that her and all the other women definitely didn’t get raped, so stop worrying about it”
Did you really just try and claim that rape doesn't happen during active and protracted urban combat...?
Also, while I agree that of the attackers that day, the Hamas forces were the least likely culprits due to training and defined mission objectives, they weren't the only people to enter Israel after the barriers were breached. That doesn't mean they didn't, just that I think there are other scenarios with a higher probability.
And last, I'm not really sure if you're being intentionally honest with your retelling of events, or if you really just don't know that much about the scope and duration of the attack. Either way, you don't really have a firm grasp enough to speak on this with any sort of authority, certainly not with the confidence you seem to have.
Since empathy with brown people appears to be impossible let's switch it up a bit.
Let's say the IDF kidnaps a Palestinian. Do they stick an electrified stick in their ass while in a firefight with Hamas, or do they kidnap the Palestinian back to base and then rape them?
Thanks for clearing that up, you're being intentionally disingenuous.
Never have I defended the IDF, nor have I condemned any Palestinian combatants.
I certainly never expressed any skepticism about the genocide or sexual violence that does appear to be deliberately systemic within the IDF, or at minimum, widely tolerated up the chain.
So, with that out of the way. Re-read my comments, and then decide to engage honestly, or just go and try and peddle your uninformed garbage somewhere else.
I am saying that nobody rapes during combat in the middle of a firefight. Being in mortal danger is not a huge turn on.
The rape if it happens, happens after a victim is extracted to a safe location or an area is fully captured.
Same for the rapes that happened in Ukraine. There were no rapes during combat that happens after all combat is over.
It's telling that you think a multi-day combat operation over a geographically dispersed area is just one very long firefight.
It sounds like you're basing this off a mixture of movies, television, and your gut.
I think they are basing it off the conclusion that they have already decided that they want to reach
There were some stragglers playing hide and seek but the operation was mostly over the second the IDF copters shows up which was within 24 hours.
The "witness allegations" which turned out to be untrue were during the main raid including the festival. The UN report allegations also pertain to the festival. These were the earliest hours.
The only one basing things off their gut is people claiming they have evidence of rape which they clearly don't have.
Quick question, since you're clearly familiar with the report: Section III(c)1 is divided into 6 different subsections, of which the first is the festival and surrounding areas. What are the other 5 subsections?
I can start to give some hints if you have trouble answering this question. There's also III(c)2 and 3 but I already asked some questions about III(c)2.
(That was another hint, a big one, to one of my earlier questions you still seem to be having some trouble with.)
So, you don't feel like checking III(c)1 to verify your claim that the UN report pertains only to the festival? I am trying to make it easy for you to learn how to check your claims against sources, but you do not seem eager to develop your skills in this area.
What concentration camps? What are you talking about? You are literally just making this up.
These ones
It looks like you sent the wrong link. This article is related to prison abuse and has nothing to with concentration camps.
Not surprising, since as I said, they do not exist.
And that is, in fact, the point.
For Bibi, the propaganda value is far higher - and far more important - than actually seeking any sort of meaningful and rational justice for his citizens.
Well yeah, that's the point. War crimes always get covered covered up if at all possible. Israel isn't unique there. They're the same monsters every militant power is.
Covering up war crimes of your enemies against you, though? That's not at all typical.
This is the UN report which found strong evidence that widespread rape occurred during the October 7th attack, as well as debunking one or two particular claims that Israel was putting forth which got published in the news.
This is a press release from the UN about it.
For some reason, the couple of lies Israel told about sexual violence became the entire story, overshadowing the much larger truth about sexual violence by Hamas fighters. Most of the infamous NYT story was true.
Just because Israel is actively engaging in a genocide and are committing atrocities 10 times worse than whatever’s coming back to them doesn’t automatically mean that claims of atrocity by Hamas are automatically false.
The same as one rotten apple spoils the whole barrel, one lie taints the whole Israeli claim of rape.
Lesson to be learned here is don't fucking lie to embellish a story to get the world on your side.
The UN report found there is no evidence aside from unverifiable "witness testimonies." She did confirm that israel had no forensic, video or photo evidence. It all hangs on israeli witnesses which have previously lied. When 10 israeli "witnesses" lie to manufacture rape propaganda there is no reason to believe the 11th.
There is no reason that Pramilla Patten should have classified those israeli provited witnesses are 'credible'.
The NYT article is completely debunked there is nothing left standing from it. You are straight up spreading propaganda by claiming it holds weight. The reason israel invited Patten to begin with was because the NYT article fell apart.
The claim about NYT is irrelevant too as israel claiming in its interview with BBC that it had video evidence and that there were survivors of rape. Both which are not confirmed fake.
That is the exact opposite of what the UN report did. Did you actually read it, or if not where did you get all this information you're telling me?
The executive summary is only a few pages and breaks down a high level of what they found pretty well, and then you can skip to particular sections to see more detail. Pages 4 and 5 have a pretty good high-level overview of which allegations in which locations they believe they gathered reasonable grounds to believe, which allegations they believed they debunked, and which ones they weren't able to verify or debunk one way or another. Warning, it's slightly graphic.
In particular, they pretty immediately debunked some of the Israeli governments' accounts which got repeated early on in the media, actually specifically by comparing them against evidence and by doing their own interviews where they were able.
If this was true the UN would be saying Hamas raped people. But alas, the UN does not say that.
Instead the UN calls for an investigation like the post says. Wonder why that is...
Aha! We have arrived at the point of Never Play Defense. Someone simply observing the flow of the conversation, who doesn't take a look at the report and compare it against what you're saying it says, could be mistaken for thinking this is a vigorous debate between roughly equally justified points of view, or differing interpretations which are both roughly grounded in reality, or something else which isn't you talking purely out of your ass and me giving factual citations for why you're wrong. Kudos! Not sure what else you could do, but you're playing it well.
I'll do one more round, sure. It's not a fun game for me to play indefinitely, but:
I(12), page 4: "Based on the information gathered by the mission team from multiple and independent sources, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations."
I(13), page 4: "At the Nova music festival and its surroundings, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of sexual violence took place with victims being subjected to rape and/or gang rape and then killed or killed while being raped."
If you're going to imply that civilians unrelated to Hamas might have done it, and it wasn't part of Hamas's attack -- as the OP article, hilariously, does -- then sure, you can, if you want.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Never Play Defense
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Strange the UN does not claim Hamas raped anyone care to explain why that is?
Do mention what information is gathered. It is stated in the report.
I think I'm comfortable with the reasons I've already laid out so far with citations for why what's in the OP article and what you're saying about it is crap.
I'm gonna take a page from "Never Play Defense." What do you think about this?
I think the official IDF translator lied about translations and you are reposting their propagandanda.
This was quite a scandal a little while back. Even Reuters censored the subtitles on the video because they said it was wrong. Of course anyone can use a translator these days and find out that the subtitles are propaganda.
Consider doing fact checking before posting.
Since you abandoned this line of conversation, I posted the article (in a non paywalled version) if you're interested in resurrecting it.
I am somewhat anticipating that me posting it will be interpreted as Zionism, so you may be in good company if you want to head over to the comments and start yelling at me that I am a bad person for being opposed to this particular type of rape, because of who the victims are.
(2/2 - this is the rest of the article I pasted as the "1/2" section of the comment)
(1/2)
Here, I'll repost the full article, which of course does no such thing as relying on a single IDF translation as its sole and only source, and instead actually deals at length with what the word means, how it was recently resurrected, and what it does and doesn't imply about any official sanction from Hamas leadership.
I am not surprised that you want to replace this kind of detailed analysis with a simple and pithy oversimplification, since any detailed analysis will expose the truth that you're openly defending rape.
Stop posting IDF propaganda this is getting embarrassing.
If your evidence for Hamas raping people is not being able to use google translate we are done talking.
What a weird hill to die on...you don't have to defend Hamas in order to be critical of Israel. It's not one or the other Linkerbaan. Or does that break the Larp. I can't understand people like you.
Kony 2012 I guess...?
I think some people's brains are all-or-nothing. I mean, it's certainly true that whatever significant crimes against humanity Hamas is doing, Israel is doing literally 10 times worse. But some people will go from there to saying that everything Palestinian is good, even if it's a violent and corrupt organization like Hamas which is bringing only death and destruction to innocents on both sides, and accomplishing nothing at all for better conditions for the Palestinian people.
Surely the right answer is for the Palestinian people who only want to live and not get murdered or starved to death, and the Israeli people who only want to go to the music festival and not get raped or shot or kidnapped, to gang up and seize all the people on both sides who want to continue and profit off the conflict, and string them up upside-down like Mussolini, so they can die of thirst over several days in the hot desert sun. Then, the problem simplified, they can get together and work out some approximation of a peace agreement.
Surely there are a few problems with that, not least of which that the people who like continuing the war have most of the weapons and wouldn't agree to the proposal. But that makes more sense to me than picking a "right side" and defending them regardless of what horrifying thing they're doing to innocent people on the "wrong side."
My evidence for Hamas raping people is the UN report I already posted which talks about all the evidence for Hamas raping people. We're talking about something different, which is Hamas fighters using a word which is explicitly associated with rape (and a pretty in depth explanation of what it does and doesn't imply.)
Isn't "Never Play Defense" fun? I can switch to a new accusation, if you decide to change your mind and continue the conversation.
Strange can you explain explain why the UN doesn't say Hamas raped people if your 'UN Report" contains evidence.
Surely they wouldn't need to call for an investigation first.
Hey, @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world do you provide this much scrutiny when you post articles from your blog websites? Or do you reserve that charitability only for one side?
There's a thing called a "reputation". Lying about rape makes future rape claims without evidence less credible.
Sure sure. But my question was-just in case you missed it: do you submit the blog posts you spam here to the same level of scrutiny or is your charitability only extended to only one side? That's all we need to see that this is all a big larp for you
The easiest way to get rid of Linkerbaan and Hamas is to stop the genocide.
What people like @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world (and most of these Lemmy LARPers) don't understand is that I am the most on the side of Palestinians. However, I'm a solutions oriented person. I want the suffering of Palestinians to stop. Now. I don't care to larp on social media for Karma points so I don't spam news threads non-stop with junk blog opinion pieces. Their only goal is to dilute the conversation.
We all are aware the genocide is happening.
I want a ceasefire and I want to bring both sides to the table to negotiations because the Palestinian people are the ones caught in this awful situation between a proxy war for Iran and the zealotry of right wing Israeli politicians.
Yes you just deny that israel is an Apartheid. Very pro Palestine.
Buddy, I just conceded it's an apartheid state two comments away in the same thread. Now what will you say about me in order to obfuscate and muddy the conversation?
Sure, Israel/Palestine could be classified as an apartheid state. There you go. Back to the original question (3rd time): Will you extend the same charitability to articles critical of Hamas? Or does the larp not work that way? Was just curious
You were just going around saying Palestinians don't have to drive on separate roads interesting how fast you change your mind.
Not sure where I blindly quote everything Hamas says as the truth like the IDF rape accusation defenders do.
Because you constantly post opinion blog pieces on every community and they seem to not hold a candle to the slightest scrutiny, but when someone brings receipts (like UN reports) suddenly you are Nancy Drew. It's pretty obvious that you have double standards when it comes to media literacy, no?
Kony 2012
No pal, I was very precise in my language: I said within Israel there are millions of Muslims that coexist with Jews. That was in direct response to the garbage you were posting in that specific thread because you are unable to engage with more than one topic at a time --perhaps it's too difficult for you. I understand. All this larping on social media can be tiring after a while.
Kony 2012, amirite?
I understand the challenges with the NYT expose about the sexual violence that might or might not have happened on 10/7, but why are we posting opinion pieces to world news? This is a blog post with no sources. Shouldn't we do better?