I read the article, and I agree with Freddie deBoer. This is just liberal apologetics. This is just the same arguments of things are getting better, just wait, blah, blah, blah. I’m old. It’s tired. Give me healthcare and change my mind.
So until we get single payer healthcare, you won't be happy with any other policy wins and you'd rather burn all your political capital fighting us instead of uniting against the literal fascists?
The left, the real socialist left doesn’t have political capital. So there’s nothing to burn. Incremental policy is great to alleviate suffering, but ultimately is masturbatory. Fascism will eventually overcome America. This explains why. Waiting for real, substantial policy changes with climate change happening is denialism. We’re waiting for enough people to realize this so we can organize and fight for the future.
I found that argument very unconvincing.
I think the author's definition of fascism is nonsensical and ahistorical.
I agree that capitalism has the tendency to concentrate power (like every other social or political system ever in the history of humans), but the idea that we should just abandon the levers of power to the kind of people who want Donald Trump to be president is so insane to me.
The author even concedes that Donald Trump is uniquely bad but then bends over backwards trying to get back to his comfortable "both sides" narrative
I agree that it is insane to concede power to fascism. I have kids and will be voting for Biden for this reason. I’m aware that when full fascism comes, it will not be pretty. But I also understand that capitalism will eventually decay into fascism. So, I am sympathetic to those that want to do something outside the system of just voting. I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m just trying to make people understand the situation we’re in.
Well I'm glad I don't have to have the Cornel West argument here.
I think we agree that the whole Earth is in a dangerous and precarious situation and far too many people are still not acknowledging this?
Do you disagree that Biden has delivered more policy for the Left as a whole than any president since LBJ?
Civil rights and the voter rights act were pretty big, so I don’t know. Biden has done more for the environment( he needs to do more) and that affects us all. I like Biden. I think he wants to do more. But he is beholden to the DNC and it’s corporate donors. When he gets his next term, expect him to do more.
Well if we're talking "abolish the 2-party system" (with electoral reform) then I'm 100% agreed
The DNC won’t let that happen. If they didn’t course correct after Bernie / Hillary, they never will. She should’ve picked him as VP. They would have freaked out.
I 100% agree both parties will resist as much as possible.
I personally think campaigning for electoral reform is better than trying to fully overthrow the existing system but I agree it is a very uphill battle.
Thanks for the conversation. It helps to question my belief system. I hope I’m wrong about the future.
Agreed, here's to hope, cheers!
So ... all capitalism is fascism; therefore "both sides are the same"; therefore reject incremental progress as illegitimate?
Incremental progress is not illegitimate. It’s just never going to be enough to solve the problem that is capitalism. If it were, the New Deal would have fixed this system and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Ok....so because the New Deal didn't... overthrow capitalism forever.... therefore working within the system is pointless?
Yes 🙌 . Read Reform or Revolution by Rosa Luxemburg to understand why.
And the Nordic countries just don't exist?
Social democracies aren’t socialism. They have unions, co-ops, but they don’t own the means of production. They are capitalism with heavy regulation and strong social policies. And they are already regressing. If we were a more socially democratic, my opinion might be different, But, historically, the reality that capitalism decays into fascism would still be true.
Why do you assume that socialist systems won't also experience a gravitational pull towards fascism? In my opinion that's universal across all political systems. Also aren't all extant "state owns the means of production" counties quite fascist?
Wow, you’re really going there. I agree with your thinking. I think of it this way. Would I rather deal with climate change under a capitalist/fascist dictatorship with overconsumption and excess growth. Or would I rather deal with climate change under a tankie dictatorship with a planned economy that limits consumption and growth. I’ll pick the Marxist Leninist one. I’d rather it be an anarcho communist one. But with multiple factions vying for power and trying to control huge populations, that may not be possible.
So, do we agree that climate policy has been mixed-bag both in "The West" and China? (Everybody is touting their green tech while still building new fossil fuel extraction and plants)
Even if you were sure a tankie government would deliver better on climate change, what are the odds that "the revolution" leads to a full fascist government instead?
Did you read the article?
I read the article, and I agree with Freddie deBoer. This is just liberal apologetics. This is just the same arguments of things are getting better, just wait, blah, blah, blah. I’m old. It’s tired. Give me healthcare and change my mind.
So until we get single payer healthcare, you won't be happy with any other policy wins and you'd rather burn all your political capital fighting us instead of uniting against the literal fascists?
The left, the real socialist left doesn’t have political capital. So there’s nothing to burn. Incremental policy is great to alleviate suffering, but ultimately is masturbatory. Fascism will eventually overcome America. This explains why. Waiting for real, substantial policy changes with climate change happening is denialism. We’re waiting for enough people to realize this so we can organize and fight for the future.
I found that argument very unconvincing.
I think the author's definition of fascism is nonsensical and ahistorical.
I agree that capitalism has the tendency to concentrate power (like every other social or political system ever in the history of humans), but the idea that we should just abandon the levers of power to the kind of people who want Donald Trump to be president is so insane to me.
The author even concedes that Donald Trump is uniquely bad but then bends over backwards trying to get back to his comfortable "both sides" narrative
I agree that it is insane to concede power to fascism. I have kids and will be voting for Biden for this reason. I’m aware that when full fascism comes, it will not be pretty. But I also understand that capitalism will eventually decay into fascism. So, I am sympathetic to those that want to do something outside the system of just voting. I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m just trying to make people understand the situation we’re in.
Well I'm glad I don't have to have the Cornel West argument here.
I think we agree that the whole Earth is in a dangerous and precarious situation and far too many people are still not acknowledging this?
Do you disagree that Biden has delivered more policy for the Left as a whole than any president since LBJ?
Civil rights and the voter rights act were pretty big, so I don’t know. Biden has done more for the environment( he needs to do more) and that affects us all. I like Biden. I think he wants to do more. But he is beholden to the DNC and it’s corporate donors. When he gets his next term, expect him to do more.
Well if we're talking "abolish the 2-party system" (with electoral reform) then I'm 100% agreed
The DNC won’t let that happen. If they didn’t course correct after Bernie / Hillary, they never will. She should’ve picked him as VP. They would have freaked out.
I 100% agree both parties will resist as much as possible.
I personally think campaigning for electoral reform is better than trying to fully overthrow the existing system but I agree it is a very uphill battle.
Thanks for the conversation. It helps to question my belief system. I hope I’m wrong about the future.
Agreed, here's to hope, cheers!
So ... all capitalism is fascism; therefore "both sides are the same"; therefore reject incremental progress as illegitimate?
Incremental progress is not illegitimate. It’s just never going to be enough to solve the problem that is capitalism. If it were, the New Deal would have fixed this system and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Ok....so because the New Deal didn't... overthrow capitalism forever.... therefore working within the system is pointless?
Yes 🙌 . Read Reform or Revolution by Rosa Luxemburg to understand why.
And the Nordic countries just don't exist?
Social democracies aren’t socialism. They have unions, co-ops, but they don’t own the means of production. They are capitalism with heavy regulation and strong social policies. And they are already regressing. If we were a more socially democratic, my opinion might be different, But, historically, the reality that capitalism decays into fascism would still be true.
Why do you assume that socialist systems won't also experience a gravitational pull towards fascism? In my opinion that's universal across all political systems. Also aren't all extant "state owns the means of production" counties quite fascist?
Wow, you’re really going there. I agree with your thinking. I think of it this way. Would I rather deal with climate change under a capitalist/fascist dictatorship with overconsumption and excess growth. Or would I rather deal with climate change under a tankie dictatorship with a planned economy that limits consumption and growth. I’ll pick the Marxist Leninist one. I’d rather it be an anarcho communist one. But with multiple factions vying for power and trying to control huge populations, that may not be possible.
So, do we agree that climate policy has been mixed-bag both in "The West" and China? (Everybody is touting their green tech while still building new fossil fuel extraction and plants)
Even if you were sure a tankie government would deliver better on climate change, what are the odds that "the revolution" leads to a full fascist government instead?
Surely the Right outguns us 10 to 1?
At least read what he posted before replying. We don't need to build another reddit where people just rage at each other on behalf of their team.
For the record, when I posted that reply the parent only read "yes 🙌"
I was saltier than I would like to be in retrospect though, I cut it out of a comment.