On another topic, there are rumors circulating that we are fascists or supported genocide. These claims are completely false, and like most viral twitter threads, are coming from a single Mastodon user on a personal vendetta who didn’t provide any sources. Such slander doesn’t deserve any response and is best left ignored.
Nothing here says he's a fascist. His "genocide denial" stance stems mostly from the idea of being anti-capitalist and not trusting US-centric sources. Its not entirely without merit. Noam Chomsky for example is accused of the same thing for the Pol Pot genocide, though at the time he was right for the same reasons -- accusations started flying in the US based on completely banal sources.
I used to be like this, its not entirely harmful. And in any case, I don't give a shit about his politics. We should be thinking about how to separate peoples politics from the platform, and the work hes done on Lemmy does exactly that.
Noam Chomsky for example is accused of the same thing for the Pol Pot genocide, though at the time he was right for the same reasons
It's also a valid opinion to criticize Chomsky for his reaction to the Cambodian genocide.I can't recall all the details of how things went down, so I have no comment myself, but I do have other criticisms of him.
It doesn't make him a fascist, or a Nazi/Nazi sympathizer. That would detract from what I have to say about the people who actually are, since that's a separate conversation. Same goes for the devs perhaps (but that's also a separate conversation).
Noam Chomsky for example is accused of the same thing for the Pol Pot genocide, though at the time he was right for the same reasons – accusations started flying in the US based on completely banal sources.
You're giving Chomsky's version of the story, but it's such a weird story because one of the only communist projects Chomsky ever spoke in favor of was easily one of the worst ones (along with Peru), ones that even hardcore "tankies" disavow. Like, wasn't this the motherfucker that said the dissolution of the Soviet Union was a victory for the "left"?
Granted, there is misreporting on Cambodia, which started when it was contemporary and continues to this day, but that misreporting is mostly on the magnitude of the crimes committed, not the basis of calling them crimes (i.e. they were still awful).
He didn't speak in favor of it. Sources came up saying millions were being killed in Cambodia. Chosmky questioned the sources saying "where the fuck is this coming from? Nothing supports this". Thats his version of the story, yeah but hardly any evidence he supported Cambodia.
It is extremely harmful when people like them go around non-tankie left wing subs and eventually gain control through nefarious means and eventually transition it into yet another tankie propaganda sub. Or when they moderate a supposedly general left wing sub but any criticism of authoritarian communism gets you muted and called a liberal, eventually allowing their propaganda to seep through to regular socialists as any criticism is shot down. /r/GreenAndPleasant is guilty of the latter.
It's not really the politics but the way power hungry people get.
So um, no one on the face of this earth hates fascism more than a communist, the evidence you dug up only seems to reinforced the not a fascist and its utterly rediculous to call us that.
See, it's all this stuff that really makes the
Such slander doesn’t deserve any response
statement feel very Steve Huffman to me. It very clearly does deserve a response because the problem doesn't end with just saying "nope lol that's not us" and people like me have to go digging through all this bullshit just to figure out the facts: they believe anti-China news and similar is U.S./media propaganda and will moderate opposing viewpoints with "Orientalism" bans and similar. That's not a hard statement to type, and if this viewpoint is in good faith then I struggle to see why they refuse to just say that and consistently resort to "if you don't like our moderation policy feel free to join/start a different instance!" without ever actually clarifying the moderation policy. Even lemmygrad pretty much says outright "if you like capitalism, fuck off."
I mean, dude's not CEO, he doesn't control the instances. He does own a very large instance, but I don't think it's even the most dominant instance post-redditting.
I disagree with his views, though I will admit to some sympathy on some aspects (not the genocide stuff), but ultimately, he's just a dude who makes this software. He doesn't own it, he doesn't have a monopoly on its control, and really, the entirety of the Fediverse could, if he went full Huff, say "fuck you" and defederate his instance. That's the power of a distributed service. Heck, your own instance, kbin.social, could lemmy.ml at any time and it'd have little impact overall.
Even were I to concede to him being "Huffman-like" (which I do not agree with), I don't think he's actually relevant enough in the real-world usage of the software to care about as far as that goes.
though I will admit to some sympathy on some aspects (not the genocide stuff)
I mean, no one is supporting a genocide or speaking in favor of one, and the US has a documented history of using atrocity propaganda that is completely without basis. Probably the most powerful thing about that particular genre of slander is that it is taboo to denounce it for fear of looking like a "denialist" in the manner of a Holocaust denier, allowing the west to cynically exploit the generational trauma of a genocide it subsidized in order to degrade the reputations of its opponents on the imperial periphery.
Having gotten involved a bit over the last week, I think he's generally a good guy. I disagree with his politics, but none of that has anything to do with software development. He writes good code, and when he's not overwhelmed with nonsense, he's quite helpful.
There's another major dev, but I don't know anything about him. I think they just want to build a cool tool that they can use to provide a safe space for discussion, and they want to make that available to others as well. That's pretty cool, and that's something I can support.
Ya, I don't have any personal interactions with him and am withholding real judgement without. Even his politics, it's hard for me to really condemn him when I don't even know the lens he's viewing things through. End of the day, I'm taking a best guess based on a few (3?) instances where he's ever been recorded saying something that's shit.
But also, even the worst tankie's better than the best right winger, any day.
Eh, I consider myself to be the opposite of both politically, but I have no problem contributing to FOSS projects lead by either. But I agree in general, I've had better luck with socialists than fascists when it comes to FOSS.
Slightly contra- the other user that responded to you, I need to ask: You've spoken with rightwingers before, right? Most westerners have had the "privilege" at least a few times to allow such people to speak for themselves. Have you ever had an even slightly comparable interaction with a "tankie" where they also got to speak for themselves, rather than be told about what they believe third-hand?
I am a marxist Lenninist, and I can and do speak for myself.
I'm an ML too, they aren't rare here, but extended dialogue between liberals and MLs is rare from what I've seen (though not totally unheard of). Usually the liberals are either very avoidant or combative (and sometimes the MLs get pretty combative too, tbf), which prevents there being any kind of understanding. between speakers.
Oh I am so sorry, I miss understood what you where saying, in that case 100% agree with you, liberals are both more likely to talk to a right winger and to hear them out.
Nothing here says he's a fascist. His "genocide denial" stance stems mostly from the idea of being anti-capitalist and not trusting US-centric sources. Its not entirely without merit. Noam Chomsky for example is accused of the same thing for the Pol Pot genocide, though at the time he was right for the same reasons -- accusations started flying in the US based on completely banal sources.
I used to be like this, its not entirely harmful. And in any case, I don't give a shit about his politics. We should be thinking about how to separate peoples politics from the platform, and the work hes done on Lemmy does exactly that.
It's also a valid opinion to criticize Chomsky for his reaction to the Cambodian genocide.I can't recall all the details of how things went down, so I have no comment myself, but I do have other criticisms of him.
It doesn't make him a fascist, or a Nazi/Nazi sympathizer. That would detract from what I have to say about the people who actually are, since that's a separate conversation. Same goes for the devs perhaps (but that's also a separate conversation).
You're giving Chomsky's version of the story, but it's such a weird story because one of the only communist projects Chomsky ever spoke in favor of was easily one of the worst ones (along with Peru), ones that even hardcore "tankies" disavow. Like, wasn't this the motherfucker that said the dissolution of the Soviet Union was a victory for the "left"?
Granted, there is misreporting on Cambodia, which started when it was contemporary and continues to this day, but that misreporting is mostly on the magnitude of the crimes committed, not the basis of calling them crimes (i.e. they were still awful).
Anyway, Chomsky is a shitty left-neoliberal [PDF]
He didn't speak in favor of it. Sources came up saying millions were being killed in Cambodia. Chosmky questioned the sources saying "where the fuck is this coming from? Nothing supports this". Thats his version of the story, yeah but hardly any evidence he supported Cambodia.
It is extremely harmful when people like them go around non-tankie left wing subs and eventually gain control through nefarious means and eventually transition it into yet another tankie propaganda sub. Or when they moderate a supposedly general left wing sub but any criticism of authoritarian communism gets you muted and called a liberal, eventually allowing their propaganda to seep through to regular socialists as any criticism is shot down. /r/GreenAndPleasant is guilty of the latter.
It's not really the politics but the way power hungry people get.
So um, no one on the face of this earth hates fascism more than a communist, the evidence you dug up only seems to reinforced the not a fascist and its utterly rediculous to call us that.
See, it's all this stuff that really makes the
statement feel very Steve Huffman to me. It very clearly does deserve a response because the problem doesn't end with just saying "nope lol that's not us" and people like me have to go digging through all this bullshit just to figure out the facts: they believe anti-China news and similar is U.S./media propaganda and will moderate opposing viewpoints with "Orientalism" bans and similar. That's not a hard statement to type, and if this viewpoint is in good faith then I struggle to see why they refuse to just say that and consistently resort to "if you don't like our moderation policy feel free to join/start a different instance!" without ever actually clarifying the moderation policy. Even lemmygrad pretty much says outright "if you like capitalism, fuck off."
I mean, dude's not CEO, he doesn't control the instances. He does own a very large instance, but I don't think it's even the most dominant instance post-redditting.
I disagree with his views, though I will admit to some sympathy on some aspects (not the genocide stuff), but ultimately, he's just a dude who makes this software. He doesn't own it, he doesn't have a monopoly on its control, and really, the entirety of the Fediverse could, if he went full Huff, say "fuck you" and defederate his instance. That's the power of a distributed service. Heck, your own instance, kbin.social, could lemmy.ml at any time and it'd have little impact overall.
Even were I to concede to him being "Huffman-like" (which I do not agree with), I don't think he's actually relevant enough in the real-world usage of the software to care about as far as that goes.
I mean, no one is supporting a genocide or speaking in favor of one, and the US has a documented history of using atrocity propaganda that is completely without basis. Probably the most powerful thing about that particular genre of slander is that it is taboo to denounce it for fear of looking like a "denialist" in the manner of a Holocaust denier, allowing the west to cynically exploit the generational trauma of a genocide it subsidized in order to degrade the reputations of its opponents on the imperial periphery.
Having gotten involved a bit over the last week, I think he's generally a good guy. I disagree with his politics, but none of that has anything to do with software development. He writes good code, and when he's not overwhelmed with nonsense, he's quite helpful.
There's another major dev, but I don't know anything about him. I think they just want to build a cool tool that they can use to provide a safe space for discussion, and they want to make that available to others as well. That's pretty cool, and that's something I can support.
Ya, I don't have any personal interactions with him and am withholding real judgement without. Even his politics, it's hard for me to really condemn him when I don't even know the lens he's viewing things through. End of the day, I'm taking a best guess based on a few (3?) instances where he's ever been recorded saying something that's shit.
But also, even the worst tankie's better than the best right winger, any day.
Eh, I consider myself to be the opposite of both politically, but I have no problem contributing to FOSS projects lead by either. But I agree in general, I've had better luck with socialists than fascists when it comes to FOSS.
Slightly contra- the other user that responded to you, I need to ask: You've spoken with rightwingers before, right? Most westerners have had the "privilege" at least a few times to allow such people to speak for themselves. Have you ever had an even slightly comparable interaction with a "tankie" where they also got to speak for themselves, rather than be told about what they believe third-hand?
I am a marxist Lenninist, and I can and do speak for myself.
I'm an ML too, they aren't rare here, but extended dialogue between liberals and MLs is rare from what I've seen (though not totally unheard of). Usually the liberals are either very avoidant or combative (and sometimes the MLs get pretty combative too, tbf), which prevents there being any kind of understanding. between speakers.
Oh I am so sorry, I miss understood what you where saying, in that case 100% agree with you, liberals are both more likely to talk to a right winger and to hear them out.
Your point being?