How about tlnet? I just made !tlnet@rss.ponder.cat.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

!rcv@ponder.cat

It's on the ballot statewide in six states so far, and it's already in action in a bunch of places. Almost everybody who isn't a malicious establishment politician likes it wherever it gets tried. Read the sticky post to learn more.

Can the pages play music, and animated avatars? I feel like you're onto something.

It's a hacked-together python script. Should I try to clean it up and open source it? It's not well-organized right now, though.

What's lacking in the moderation tools? I've heard a lot of people talk about the lack. What are some things that are hard to do?

Have some logos. We can say they are CC-BY licensed if you want to use one.

Cory Doctorow pointed out recently that having pages be ugly and half-broken is an immune system against creeping corporate influence. Marketing people are incapable of making ugly pages without collapsing into fits, so if every page on your system is ugly and homemade, they won't be able to fit in there, and they'll have a harder time turning it all into shit.

!hackaday@rss.ponder.cat

And if you could make the back button malfunction and then reload the page, and also open a dialog when I try to navigate away, that would be perfect.

chat room to the side

Perfect.

that anyone can use without logging in

Absolutely not.

I saw that already. Programming.dev was right away on point about hiding some of my RSS bot's posts, unless the users were subscribed, because it was spamming their users' feeds and they didn't want that. They're clearly invested in their users having a good experience instead of, I guess, wanting to order them around? I'm not familiar but it looks like programming.dev is doing it right.

I agree. The moderation on Lemmy is halfway to Reddit's. There are random rules for no reason. I don't fully get it.

I made !emulator_announce@rss.ponder.cat with all of those feeds. I'm not sure, but I think that will be more useful than breaking it out into a bunch of communities and letting people deal with them individually. Is that just as useful for you?

I will not have this to offer to you, I think.

I think it's unrealistic for people to switch instances unless something has gone badly wrong with their existing one. New users are still a thing, though, and besides, if I know my instance is better than all the others, then I'll still feel happy about it.

!requests@rss.ponder.cat

and

!phys@rss.ponder.cat

Phys.org does what some of the others do, offer a massive menu of options for the RSS feeds. I picked out their top stories feed only, to cut down on spam. I don't want to have a huge list of bot-posted communities with no activity. Are there any of the specific ones that you want to have, besides the top headlines?

I agree on the customizability.

The community aspects that form a reason to join this instance specifically are key, of course, but I have none of that. I just made this place. Now I need to make it neat enough that at least one person sees some reason to join, instead of one of 200 other already-popular instances.

I think making the frontend more customizable would be good for Lemmy as a whole, and also if I'm tinkering with it on this instance, maybe that can give a flavor to the instance and give a benefit to people who do decide to come by. It is more ambitious than I was thinking of, but I just looked for a while and it is not insurmountable.

Lemmy thunderdome community! All posts get fed in from RSS, but if they don't get upvoted by the time the time limit has passed, they get deleted!

I am joking, I think. It's an interesting idea though. I don't think relying on the algorithm to stem the tide of bot-posted content is a completely complete solution, since I have definitely seen bot-provided communities which annoyed me with the volume of 1-upvote posts which the bot was putting up. I am planning to try to limit the feeds available to those that have a respectable amount of human interaction.

😁

I think hackability can go a long way towards this.

Especially on the frontend, there's no reason Lemmy shouldn't have custom "plugins" to change its behavior in certain ways. I think the issue isn't that the Lemmy developers don't want these things to exist that you're talking about, so much as them being the only ones in a position to make the changes or accept the PRs to make them happen. Of course in that situation, change will be slow and progress limited.

Me making changes to the frontend that intensive, or anything like it, was a bigger scope of change than I was expecting. I just wanted to make some tinkering things for my instance. But it wouldn't be impossible. And you could have your charts. Even little blinking lights and things.

Let me mull it over for a while.

/c/backpage

No no, that is a bad idea.

I spent a long time looking at it.

I think what it boils down to is hackability. The friction comes from people being unable to modify their experience, or the experience of their users, without going through this crazy process that involves it going all the way up to two Lemmy devs for the entire universe of users, and then something getting changed, and then it going all the way back down to the moderator or whoever, after the site admin upgrades the entire site. Or, going rogue and starting to change the code for their instance, which of course only the admin can do and voids the warranty.

I wasn't trying to become a Lemmy dev. I just wanted to make my instance neat, and I like to tinker. But I'm glad that people took the question seriously enough to give real, detailed answers about what would make things better. Lemmy is already designed to separate the backend and frontend very cleanly. I think it wouldn't be too hard (famous last words...) to make the frontend more hackable to make at least some of these into easier things to do at an end-user or end-administrator level.

It might be good to look at other software, too. I was thinking Lemmy, but the goal is the neat stuff, not the Lemmy part of it.

It’s not absolutely safe against bots and sockpuppets, but it surely makes it more expensive than even a $10/account membership.

I think, sadly, that either sending in your national ID or paying $10 would be unacceptable to so many people that it would make it a lonesome failure of an experiment. I'm on your side about the idea, but I think people would just take the path of least resistance and create their sockpuppets on some other instance, and your main accomplishment would be driving away legitimate users.

PIxelfed is still just supporting ActivityPub. I’m talking about multi-protocol communication. A smart client should be able to let you communicate with Lemmy communities, subreddits, Facebook groups and all types of different platforms from a single unified interface. There are plenty of people that think this is something undesirable (like everyone that wants instances to block Threads), but I’d argue that building these integrations with closed platforms would eventually destroy them because they would lose the monopoly on network effects.

I get it. Aren't there projects that are working on that? Friendica and Emissary? Adding integrations with closed-source networks to those isn't too hard. At that point, it's not its own web app anymore, though, more akin to an email program. It's a good idea but it's different than what I had in mind. You will also have to deal with API limits or terms of service and legal issues, once you start looping in the closed-source networks.

No, but you could have a web server that responds to multiple domains. Ideally, the server listening and responding to the AP requests should be able to work with multiple “virtual servers”, instead of having to have only one instance == one domain that we today. AFAIK, only Takahe does this for microblogging.

Yes, that part's not overly hard. I'm already doing virtual servers for ponder.cat and rss.ponder.cat, to run them both on the same VPS, and I'll probably add more virtual servers for development of frontend tweaks if I keep going with Lemmy. Some of the ideas I had in mind for hackable frontends involved wildcard virtual servers to serve people custom "instance" sites off a subdomain that's different from the actual actor ID instance name.

What I'm saying is that if someone's actor ID from the POV of the rest of the Fediverse is still https://ponder.cat/u/rglullis, and ponder.cat goes down, nothing that either ponder.cat or any new instance can do, can "catch" requests that are being directed to that actor ID. You have to make the actor ID either https://rglullis.com/u/rglullis or https://rglullis.sometrustedthirdparty.com/u/rglullis from the beginning, and arrange for ponder.cat to be handling any traffic for those domains, so that you can switch away from the ponder.cat instance later on if you want to.

Of course, you can tell people that they can either have a ponder.cat user, or a rglullis.com user if they want to buy their own domain for their user, and they can have an actor that will be transferrable from ponder.cat to any other Lemmy server that supports the feature. It wouldn't work with current Lemmy, but in theory it could be made to work, if someone were willing to make the right Lemmy changes. It would be tough but it might be worth it.

Overall I think it might be better to address the same issue at the protocol level as some other federated social media networks do, so you're not introducing crazy new requirements on both the server and user experience side in order for people to be able to transfer their users later.

This is a very good idea. Slashdot hit on something very good with their scoring and moderation system, and then the lessons were forgotten in the systems that came after Slashdot.

There are so many small tweaks like this tagging idea that would improve things, that I think the way to do it is a frontend "plugin" system that can accommodate them without it being a big fandango of tweaking the core to include fifty of these little nubbins all over the codebase.

Nothing that's ordained from on high will ever be completely perfect. If you can have a little text box on your custom frontend, where you can tweak your own UI features, and then talk with the instance admin about importing one of those little tweak plugins for the whole site, or for your own community only, that sounds like a huge step forward to me. If you've ever added little tweaks to Wordpress, with the custom CSS boxes or by adding a few lines to functions.php, I envision this being similar.

This is all much more ambitious than I was thinking of when I asked this original question, but it would be a lot of fun to work on. If the result was it going back up into Lemmy, and each instance having its own collection of tweaks and a thriving community of people working on them without needing to disrupt the pace of development on the core, that would be a pretty excellent outcome.

I completely agree. Maybe my phrasing was careless. I wasn't trying to be critical of the pace of accepting PRs or anything. I only meant that I think more flexibility in the frontend would help, instead of needing any minor UI change to go all the way through a cycle all the way up to you, incorporating it into the core codebase, and then filtering back down to an upgrade by the instance admin. But please don't take it as blaming you for any of that situation. I was raising it in the effort to propose a solution and also to advocate against people just complaining about the moderation tools and then moving on, and waiting for you to make them happy.

I did look at the backend plugin system PR, although sadly not enough yet to have any opinion or feedback on it. I do think a frontend plugin system, of sorts, could help a lot. I'm not sure when I will have time but I will try to put together something on this instance to show what I'm talking about, and if I do wind up doing it and it's well received, I am completely open to putting it together as a fixed-up and official PR for the main codebase.

I just set it up. Everyone's afraid to break the seal.

I think they can both be useful. Some people will prefer to have an RSS reader pulling the feeds from Lemmy communities, and some people will prefer to have Lemmy as their home base, so to speak, and like to be able to add updates from some RSS feeds to that.

Yes. I want to avoid having it become spam, so I decided to be careful which RSS feeds I add to keep the human-to-bot ratio up.

I understand now. I thought you meant something different by crowdsourcing. No worries.

Most of the most popular RSS communities are free. I like some of them that are paywalled and a little way down the list, like !thenewyorker@rss.ponder.cat and !theatlantic@rss.ponder.cat, but most of the top ones are free. One of the really nice things about one community per source is that you know which ones to subscribe to and which ones you'd have to pay for that you can block.

If you don't know the New York Times has a paywall, and you click on a link to them, that's a learning experience for you at this point. I think some of the griping about paywalls is just entitled. It's okay if people made content for you and they want to get paid. At the same time, I'm not trying to spam people who don't want paywall content. If I can make a quality-of-life improvement for people who don't want to get burned by paywalls on random links from places they've never heard of, then fine.

I also want to give shout-outs to some feeds that are way, way down and trying to charge money for very high quality stuff:

• !eenews@rss.ponder.cat
• !grist@rss.ponder.cat
• !themarshallproject@rss.ponder.cat
• !technologyreview@rss.ponder.cat
• !foreignpolicy@rss.ponder.cat

That is fair. Might be worthwhile talking to instance admins and core devs about how best to make use of it? Putting it behind some admin approval or administration might be the best way.

That's a good idea. And then, if it turns into a mess of botspam, it's not my fault.

Maybe an IPv6 issue? Can one of the admins see what the error is on their end when the communication with rss.ponder.cat is attempted?

This is an absolutely excellent idea. I don't think I will allow this for Reddit feeds, since there are two better ways of getting them on Lemmy already.

I think @rglullis@communick.news has a suggestion that is better than using Reddit's RSS through my tool. Importing Reddit communities via RSS may become spam and stunt the growth of a real local community based around the same topic.

This is by far my favorite set of suggestions. This is the kind of hackability fun instance that I would love to be a part of.

Proof of Humanity. There is some work about using Zero Knowledge Proofs as a way to be able to indicate that the owner of a key can also prove ownership of another set of credentials without having to reveal these credentials to third parties. This would allow us to really get rid of bots and sockpuppets.

Can you explain more? How would this do anything to prevent sockpuppets? I don't think they are preventable. I think the closest thing that exists is Something Awful's forums, where you have to pay $10 to participate and your user can be banned at the drop of a hat if you get out of line, and you're out $10. So you can run as many sockpuppet accounts as you want, as long as you feel like investing in what it'll take to keep making new ones.

That approach works perfectly on SA and I think there's something to it, but the $10 would be so shocking to the Fediverse mindset that I think it would be impossible for anyone to be on board with it.

The ability for users to bring their own cryptographic keys and actor id. This way even if a server goes down people could port their whole account over to a different server.

You can't bring an actor ID to a new domain name, can you? I can imagine an outlandish solution with each user registering their own domain for their actor, or having one provided by a guaranteed-trustable service, and then the server supporting those "foreign" actors, but it's definitely not easy. The idea of porting your stuff to a new server is an excellent idea but I think it's difficult to do with ActivityPub.

Multi-protocol federation.

Absolutely.

Pixelfed has support for most of the Fediverse: Lemmy's communities, Mastodon's groups, and Mastodon's microblogging. I'm thinking about messing around with Pixelfed before going any further with the Lemmy plan. Pixelfed might or might not work, but it might be a pure superset of what Lemmy can do, after some minor UI changes.

Get rid of downvotes/upvotes and replace it with multi-dimensional scoring/ranking system.

User-defined sorting/ranking. I do not want to completely block people, but I do wish to have a system that could boost/de-emphasize posts by certain people on certain topics, and completely ignore them in others.

This is one of the biggest things, to me. I messed around with some code to analyze the network of votes and make global determinations about users, and it worked well. Having the scoring and selection of posts being something that just has some quick math thrown at it but mostly left alone is a big missed opportunity to me.

Having a powerful hackable framework to customize the feed you're seeing, or add multiple feeds you can switch between, would be fantastic.

Cooperative media storage and distribution that could leverage the storage from clients as well as servers, something based on bittorrent.

I messed around with this too. It's not simple and I didn't get very far, but this is a very good idea to me. It also helps with hackability, because once you have that backing store that's using some model other than HTTP requests to nginx on the central instance, it's easy to make it writable for client-side plugins. It's a very, very ambitious thing but I like it very, very much.

Custom widgets that can be attached to a post/community. For example, I’d like to have a play-by-play tracker for basketball/football games.

Yes, exactly. I think once of the very next things on my list are seeing how realistically this kind of widget can be added to the Lemmy UI in a way that's customizable by the user. I think it's pretty easy. But all of this is work and work is hard, of course.

RDF/Semantic Web descriptors. If people are talking about a TV show, or making a list of PC components that they want to review or anything that can be part of a knowledge graph should be linkable and browsable by a specialized browser.

Collaborative lists/articles/posts. With the item above, it would be trivial to create wikipedia-style posts where a community can build their “common knowledge” and would make it easier for newcomers to get general recommendations and/or a sense of the community values.

This, I didn't think very much about. If there's a hackable framework for client-side tools, though, someone who wants to do these things should find it pretty easy.

This is exactly the type of thing I want to do.

That is exactly what it is, yes.

Mobile apps will always lag behind. You're right, though. The Lemmy mobile interface is a terrible miniaturized version of the already not-great desktop interface.

I don't think mirroring from Lemmy RSS to Lemmy is useful, though. Is that what you're talking about? Why not just subscribe to the different available communities?

The pondercat rss bot can already do that. You can create a community that gets posts from any number of RSS feeds.

Well, you can't, but I can. I don't want to make it available for anyone to use yet, because I don't want an explosion of RSS spam, but if you want to connect some RSS feeds to a community and it's not going to become obnoxious, I can do that for you.

Hackable front ends, I think, could be a huge deal. I don't know how easy that is, but if it's possible for someone to run a modified version of the frontend just for them out of a subdomain, without it being a security nightmare, that would solve a lot of these issues of wanting an extra button on the report page, but having to have it go from you to the site admin to Nutomic back to a code update to a PR and back down the chain and so on, before it can get done.

With some web apps, that's easy, and Lemmy's frontend and backend are already nicely separated. I don't know if there have to be privileged things running in the frontend, though. I looked at it just now but I couldn't completely sort out how realistic it is. That might mean it's not very realistic.

Oh, got it. That's a really good idea. Although I do think that the comment recommending fediverser.network may be a better way. You can avoid duplicate stories from multiple news sources, and cast a wider net without creating overwhelming spam, as well as integrating better with a flexible local community.