Bodycam: Pregnant woman accused of shoplifting shot by police
cnn.com
Somehow this is the only country on earth where this seems to happen. When talking about shootings involving guns, okay, fine, the US is certainly an outlier there, but every country has cars and police.
This is murder.
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How should this have been handles instead? If she really really doesn't want to comply, You write down her license place, and you let her go.
That simple.
You have her face on video, you have the license plate, it's trivial to then go visit her at her home and have a talk. Hell, follow her if you have to, but not in a high speed chase. Just keep your distance, let her go where she wants to go until she's done.
Worst case scenario, you just let her go.
This extreme focus on that every petty little thing MUST be stopped, every small time offender MUST comply only ends in this. Suffering.
Instead focus on fixing poverty and you know, making sure that pregnant women have all they need so that they don't need to steal? That is why we banned abortion, no? Because we care about babies?
Oh yeah that's right. We care about unborn fetuses, but born babies can get fucked.
Let this woman have an abortion if she can't afford a baby. Now she doesn't need to shoplift, at least not for the baby
Lift people out of poverty. Push people to be better educated. THOSE are things that will actually lower crime rates but then it means they ml o longer are the common pulp that can stand on
She "disrespected" the cop by trying to resist therefore she must be destroyed because every fucking cop has a ego problem. Had to "set an example".
No, we banned abortion to keep controlling women and make sure they keep their head low and their financial situation lower. And it works so well that they have to shoplift, in which case we can justify killing them. Mission accomplished!
Honestly, fuck humanity.
It's also a massive waste of money and resources that could be used to fight actual, real crime.
I'm guessing the time and ammo it took to kill her amounts to more dollars lost than she could ever shoplift for. Did the store get their money back? No? Then what the fuck was the point? Who was actually helped that day?
The point of having police is to make society livable. This seems to be the opposite of that.
But that's dangerous... Real criminals might fight back. Some
copsdelicate flowers might get hurt.I consider cops being "removed from duty" a net benefit to society so.....
Hard shit take: she really doesn't need to shoplift now, for herself or the baby.
Uh huh. Probably.
Depending on poverty levels, she actually might have to. Not saying shoplifting is fine, but it might help to keep in mind that if people cat fed their children the legal way that they will move to crime to do so. Whether they caused their own situation (at least in part) or not doesn't matter in that equation.
Also, again, you don't murder somebody (actually, somebodies, according to their own laws as she was pregnant) for stealing a few items. There are better ways of handling that.
None of the wrongs she did justify what happened
Worth noting that the car didn't have plates according to the Police.
Hardly the Police job to solve poverty?
This 21 Year old has a 6 and 3 year old sons. I'll let you do the math on that. But it adds up to before some states had bans.
Regardless. They should not have drawn their guns since she didn't pose any immediate threat.
Regardless. Fact of the matter is that the situation only escalated after the police drew their weapons.
Regardless, her trying to run one of the cops down is only going to end 1 way.
First of all, red states made it next to impossible to get abortions even when it was legal. Also, they cost money. Contrary to apparent popular belief, George Soros or the DNC don't just appear to fund every abortion. Or, sometimes people are Catholic, which is fucking stupid, but maybe there's some family shit you don't know about. Especially for a minor trying to get an abortion. Again, contrary to popular belief, they weren't just being handed out for free on every corner to every 16 year old who wanted one. There were still a million obstacles long before the Dobbs decision.
Second, "I'll let you do the math" is a judgey, self-righteous, and gross statement.
Abortions are available in ohio. That is what matters here, since the argument being responded to was, "let her have an abortion".
Are you going to add any anything of worth?
It's indeed not the job for the police to solve poverty and I'm sure this woman has her problems.
None of that excuses what happened. They should never have pulled their guns. That police officer should not have been standing in front of the car. The woman tried to run away, nit murder a cop. The officer was standing in the most dangerous nokace he could, I'm arguing that that was in purpose. "I'll stand where if you make a move you might kill me, giving me reason to shoot you"
Even that car not having license plates excuses anything. Then follow her, distantly. She'll stop somewhere, pick her up there.
Hell, even letting her go is preferable to this outcome. It doesn't matter that his woman had kids since she was 15, it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter that she is poor, uneducated, it's all irrelevant.
The point is that police in the US is horribly educated, and has a terrible culture. They need to be educated for years, not 6 months. They need to get a culture of "we are to protect and serve" instead of "we are Rambo Cowboy". They need to learn to calm and deescalate every situation they arrive in, not always make shit worse
I already said that they shouldn't have drawn weapons didn't I?
Your story about how they should follow her from a distant and stop her once she gets out is just fantasy. That's also not where the fault lies.
Her trying to run one over is vehicular assault at best. Yes. The police stood there on purpose. To make sure she didn't take off. That's fine. Dare I say common procedure in multiple countries, not just the US.
Pretty sure it's been stated everywhere that their education and work culture is a big problem. I agree. The police conduct that lead up to the shooting was poor. I agree.
The moment she tries to run one over. It was only going to end 1 way.
I'm agreeing with you in my first comment so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.
It's reality in countries with police officers who had an actual education and training though. Let the "criminals" go for now, pick them up later. In this case, it would have saved two lives.
Yes, when it's deemed that approaching the criminal in public poses an imminent danger to the public.
Or if they have reason to believe that the Alleged shoplifting is organized, They might hold of to later follow them home and conduct a search of the home for evidence of more stolen items.
Are suggesting she's either a danger to the public or part of organized shoplifting?
Or when approaching a SUSPECT (she wasn't convicted of anything) causes danger to the suspect itself, for example.
Let's say that she is mentally ill, just to make the point. Are we going to do the same? Stand in front of the car, she gets a panic attack and just drives without thinking because of me tal illness. Are we going to shoot her too?
Oh wait, that is what is happening all the time in the USA where innocent civilians with mental illnesses are murdered by police because police in the US isn't trained to do their job right. This is actual realiti there.
Again, had these police officers been trained properly, she (and her unborn baby) would still be alive today.
This is not on her, this is on US police. Again.
The police should not have drawn weapons.
She should not try to run them over. Not sure why that's a controversial take for you.
Okay, question: are you okay with police shooting the mentally ill when they're having some episode? That, instead of controlling the situation and making sure that everyone gets out safely?
And if you're not, then why are you okay with them shooting a pregnant woman that likely got scared after they drew their weapons on her?
Did I say i thought this whole thing was ok?
Did I not explicitly say, multiple times. They shouldn't have had weapons drawn?
What you're being caught up on. Is her choosing to run an officer down and then be like woah..... they shot for that?
This woman was for all we know. Sane. She would have known that if you try to run over a cop. They're going to shoot you. Even if everything that lead up to that was the police mistake. She sealed her fate on her own with her last action. The police was wrong for handling the situation poorly. She was wrong for trying to run them over.
Let me put it this way for you. Think this sums up my feelings towards the situation:
I know that a semi-truck is supposed to, by law. Stop for me at a pedestrian crossing without lights. I have the right of way. That doesn't mean I'm just gonna go for it without looking. Because I don't want to die.
Is it the trucks fault for plowing through a pedestrian crossing and not seeing me? Yes.
Could I have also done something to prevent the situation? Yes.
I would say it's mostly my fault for not looking before crossing. Because I'm a fully functioning adult that knows i should look before crossing. I'm the one getting hurt by my own action.
If I'm in a car and there is a guy standing with a gun drawn and pointed at me... I might get scared and flee. That is not crazy, that is human behaviour.
If a police officer is stupid enough to stand in front of a car it kinda shoes his education and training level. Non existent. That is the entire problem.
Blame this woman all you want. I don't know of she stole from the store or not but it's irrelevant. She was shot because she was suspected of shoplifting. The woman and these police officers made all this happen together. The only difference is that the police officers are supposed to know better, they are supposed to know how to do their job, how to deescalate and they didn't.
The second they drew their guns they were wrong, they were escalating the situation. They could kmhave kept their guns holstered as they were in no danger. The girl got scared and wanted to run off. LET HER. you can catch her later, it's not as if she was a criminal mastermind. She did not deserve to die because of this
I really don't have anything more to add. You can stop strawmanning this into oblivion with statements I've already said I agree with.
I never said she deserved to die. I never said they were right to draw weapons. So I'm not sure why you keep pushing those points. For the 8:th time now. I agree.
I blame the cops for escalating the situation. I blame the woman for her last action of trying to run them over.
Two wrongs does not make a right.
If you see it differently that's ok. But don't go putting words into my mouth I never once said or hinted at.
I'm not sure what words I was putting in your mouth but from what you're saying er pretty much agree.
The woman may be a criminal (or not) and yeah, she should not have tried to escape though maybe she panicked with the guns, who knows. The police officers are very much in the wrong, they should not have been standing in front of the car, they should not have drawn their guns, they should have deescalated the situation.
Exactly. I get the hate on police, and frankly they did initiate the situation here and should have handled things better, but ultimately if you intentionally drive a vehicle into someone responding with a gun is warranted.
The thing is she didn't floor it. Didnt even pull away quickly. He could have stepped out of the way... he in fact did, right after he pulled the trigger and shot her. He literally stood in front of the car, pulled his gun and basically said "move the car and you die". He put himself in harms way, pulled his gun and escalated the situation.
This will in all likelihood be deemed a justified shooting by the police and court, but with a little compassion from the officer it could have ended without this lady being dead. Bet he doesn't even care.
Yeah I was thinking the same, she moved very cautiously forwards, he then basically climbed onto the hood and shot her. She was being so careful he had the perfect shot lined up.
Almost certainly - but I would still say this is more or less rightly so. Maybe they can successfully argue that she wasn't trying to kill him, she was trying to drive around him, based on evidence from the video. Normally a court would give the benefit of the doubt to the victim of having a car driven towards them, but if that doubt can be proven with video then that's another matter.
He definitely wanted to shoot from the start. He initiated that whole situation to give himself justification to draw, he created the opportunity to kill her. A lack of compassion is an understatement.
The phrase "the police should have handled it better but..." should just be outlawed. I guess it does let everyone know to never have a conversation with whoever says it though, so I guess there's that.
What's with users like yourself behaving like assholes to other users all the time recently? Personal insults are lame.
Where is the insult? I just see you calling someone an asshole...
I didn't call them an asshole, I said they were behaving like one. I assume they're perfectly capable of not acting that way and are just taking an opportunity where they feel they can get away with it.
The insult was in implying that what I say has no value simply because I'm pointing out the police aren't the only ones who did things wrong here; rather than engaging and arguing ideas they made an ad hominem attack. Saying that in reply to me but directed at everyone else is incredibly rude.
That's like the guy at UPS saying my package isn't lost, he just can't find it.
From what I could see, the gun was out first. Most people go their whole lives without having a gun pointed at them. How you will respond is very unpredictable. Panic sets in - it doesn't seem real. Cops are (or at least should be) trained on how to handle life or death situations- ordinary people are not.
The gun was drawn when she started turning the wheel to drive around the officer stood in front. You can hear it coming out of its holster, and you don't see it before then.
However, I'm not condoning the officer's behaviour here. They created the situation, they should have known better, both reasonably and from their training. What they did was essentially a form of entrapment.
All I'm saying is that she made a mistake herself also by driving the car towards him, and, regardless of whether it's a police officer or a regular human being, responding with a gun is most likely going to be justified.
So what your saying is the gun was drawn after she showed signs of non-violent escape?
Anything else is apologetics.
She tried to run over a cop. You are out of your mind.
Die she now?
The video seems to suggest she tried to get away, not commit a homicide. Police could have easily let her go. They have a license place, they have a face, they can go pick her up any time later.
This was a SUSPECTED shoplifting. The problem here is that in the USA police have no idea about de-escalation. They always seem to make every situation they get in to worse.
Police needs to arrive into a situation and make it calmer, better. To protect and serve remember? You can't protect anyone if you just get in waving guns every single time.
This is about shoplifters. You stop them. They don't let you? Then don't start shooting, there are other solutions. I recall a few years ago there was a similar situation where US police officers tried shooting a suspected shop lifter in a parking lot ending up shooting and killing a little girl standing being the suspect.
Actions like these are madness and show that police officers in the USA are wholly unprepared to do their jobs. This is not surprising if you realize they received a fraction of the education that police officers get in (for example) Europe. There they do teach de-escalation and it works, people don't get shot for stealing a bread.
Oh im sorry did the police not wait out for the right time for an arrest? That is so rude. Yeah better let the future officer do it that is the best solution. How bout she get out of the fucking car? she could have done something even more stupid and harm someone else if they let her go.
Even if she was a shoplifter, killing her is not an appropriate response. But we don't know if she was a shoplifter, do we? We only know a store employee said she was, is that employee infallible?
No matter if she was an angel incarnate i fully expect to get shot at when i pull this sort of nonsense in presence of police and i dont even live in a country where anybody can be armed to the brim. I wish more people would think this way too.
On the other hand, there are plenty of examples where the police show lack of training, which is an issue, but this isnt one of them.
Yeah, that kind of mind set is what the typical US police officer seems to have. And it gets people killed over and over for petty offences, if any.
This woman gets scared, she becomes unpredictable. "Well then, let's stand in front of the car so that she can't leave without trying to run me over! That is a great reason for me to murder her!"
Or you can just let her go. It's the same reason why in other countries you typically don't see the high speed chases that you see on the US. You start chasing somebody, they start taking risks that put everyone at risk. You just let them go and catch them later when things have calmed down.
It's the same reason behind why do many mentally ill people are murdered by police officers in the US because they don't know how to deescalate.
This in turn is all a consequence of the lack of training that US police officers have. They barely train with their gun and that is most of the Training they get.
I still blame the lady.
In a mellow tone: "You are beeing accused of shoplifting". "ok cya". Hits the pedal....
i guess we can settle on having better training is always better.
Remind me to shoot you in the knees next time you speed 5kmh...
This is about appropriate force. If you can't deescalate a situation then you have no business carrying a badge and a gun.
shooting someone over speeding? what is wrong with you?
Exactly my point! What is wrong with these police officers that they ended up murdering a pregnant women over some petty shoplifting?
no she got killed for resisting arrest.
Good point. Resisting arrest should not lead to your Death unless you're a terrorist or serial killer or any other imminent threat to society.
Police officers should NOT be standing in front of a car with a drawn gun to talk to a shoplifting suspect, that is insanity.
It is what police officers with no training and a culture of "respect mah athoritay!" do and it gets people needlessly killed.
In this case it killed a pregnant woman. You really wanna die on that hill?
They gotta stop you somehow. The cops are supposed to bring the situation under control. Because whoelse will? The more bullshit you pull, the easier it is for the cops to run out of options.
She is primarily responsible for her own death and the death of her baby.
No they don't. Not at all costs. If you're an active terrorist shooting around then sure, stop at all cost, even risking the lives of innocent civilians.
But this is a barely suspect of shoplifting. Death should never occur trying to stop a person like that. Worst case, you let her go. Yes. You let her go, as it's not worth it.
This reminds me of that time where us police started shooting in a busy street, managed to miss all the bad guys but hit various innocent civilians.
You don't start shooting unless there is no other option and for too many US police officers, shooting is the first option, like here.
The police officers could both have been standing next to the car, out of harms way. Had the woman left, then they could have followed her, at distance or close by if safely possible. Nobody had to die.
The police officer standing in front of the car cannot say that she endangered him, as he endangered himself by deciding to stand in front of the car.
Somehow the entire basic point is being missed that there CANNOT be a reason that a simple shoplifting (if that happened at all) leads to a person being shot dead. Police is responsible for safety of all and they should have deescalated the situation but instead they escalated it at every turn. Again this shows that US police officers have a huge lack of training.