I'm aware there's no real way to say anything here without sounding like a pretentious snob, but those income limits aren't exactly spectacularly high.
I work in tech in NYC and my income is around those limits. My boyfriend is from Switzerland and there's a non-trivial chance that we'll wind up there long-term. If I was from literally any other country in the world beyond Eritrea, I would file Swiss taxes and that would be that. Instead, I'll have a direct financial incentive to give up my native citizenship because I'm from one of two countries that makes a claim to any income earned anywhere in the world, even if I don't step foot in the country that year. This is particularly rough in Switzerland because average salaries there are quite high, and thus so are costs of living, and so surpassing those limits isn't a particularly uncommon thing. (Edit: About one in four Swiss residents make more than $120,000 annually).
I know this won't garner any sympathy at all, but a bad policy only affecting the relatively wealthy doesn't change the fact that it's a bad policy. It could even backfire from a financial perspective, since having renounced American citizenship, I'd be less inclined to spend time in the US and contribute to taxes while visiting, and I'd never move back long-term, cutting off a chance of the government getting full income taxes from me ever again, whereas a change of circumstances might have otherwise prompted me to eventually return to the US.
Not sure if you noticed, but the American social net is fucked. Mostly because of people who make a lot and not contribute back.
If you don't want to pay taxes, you don't have to participate in the American system.
If you want all the benefits and none of the costs of being American...
Someone in this thread mentioning offering violin recitials for free
Please do explain then how literally every single other country in the world with a strong safety net and welfare system has managed to fund it without having to tax expats.
If you want all the benefits and none of the costs of being American…
Because again, in literally every single country except one African dictatorship, they interpret "the benefits" as things that you enjoy while actually being in the country, and therefore something you pay for while residing there. The ability to be a citizen of your native country is an assumed right everywhere else.
The only benefit I'd be enjoying is the right to return to my home country if I ever needed to. You don't have to pay for that in practically any other country. And so, yes, I would have to seriously think about renouncing my citizenship since I'd be paying for essentially nothing. I think that's rather unfortunate.
They tax their people more to pay for it.
It’s not rocket surgery.
The answer definitely wouldn’t be to tax the wealthy less…
Cool, renounce your citizenship then.
I'm not going to keep repeating the same things and giving you the same IRS website and hoping you magically start understanding.
Please do explain then how literally every single other country in the world with a strong safety net and welfare system has managed to fund it without having to tax expats.
We're all waiting...
They tax their rich...
Hey, America should do that too!
What's one way we could do that... Maybe we should tax them on things like foreign property deals?
Oh... But what if one of them just changes permanent residency to overseas and then claim that means the sale can't be taxed in America?
Well, we could just tax foreign income over an amount the vast amount of American workers will never earn.
....
Hopefully I got this whole conversation out of the way.
I known you don't care about facts here, but for anyone else reading this, the top 10% of American tax payers contribute 74% of all income tax. The US has one of the most progressive tax systems in the world. Stronger social nets in other countries depend on significantly higher taxes on the middle class. That of course does not mean that the extremely wealthy aren't dodging a lot of taxes, but a decently experienced tech worker or pretty much any doctor is in a very very different tax situation than Jeff Bezos etc.
By the way, again not that you care, but your average worker that earns $120,000 is not making massive international real-estate deals. In the context of Switzerland, for instance, one in four Swiss people make enough to be over the US foreign tax threshold.
the top 10% of American tax payers contribute 74% of all income tax.
Because they earn the most income...
That's what happens with percentage based taxes and rampant wealth income disparity...
The bottom of the top 10% are making 3x an average American.
And it only gets more ridiculous as you get up to the 1% which is why the top ten number is high...
Why are you so opinionated about something you don't know about?
Quick edit:
That's right, you're the rich overseas worker who doesn't want to.pay taxes
It's not that you can't understand why the wealthy should pay taxes. You just don't want pay taxes. I'll just block you so I don't fuck up and respond again
I'll just note for any readers that you still are either unable to or refuse to articulate what makes America so unique that it's essentially the only country that taxes foreign income.
The United States is one of the few countries that has a system of taxing its citizens and residents on their worldwide income, including income earned abroad. This practice is known as "citizenship-based taxation." There are a few reasons why the U.S. follows this approach:
Historical Reasons: The United States has had a system of citizenship-based taxation in place for a long time. It dates back to the Civil War era when it was implemented to fund the war effort.
Desire to Prevent Tax Evasion: Citizenship-based taxation is intended to prevent U.S. citizens and residents from avoiding taxes by moving their assets or income abroad. Without it, individuals might seek tax havens to reduce their tax liability.
Complex Tax Code: The U.S. tax code is complex, and changing to a different system, such as residence-based taxation (taxing only income earned within the country), would require a significant overhaul of tax laws.
Revenue Generation: Taxing foreign income allows the U.S. government to generate revenue from its citizens and residents, regardless of where they earn their income.
It's worth noting that while the U.S. taxes its citizens and residents on foreign income, there are mechanisms in place, such as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion and foreign tax credits, to mitigate double taxation and reduce the tax burden on income earned in other countries. However, compliance with U.S. tax laws related to foreign income can be complex and may require professional assistance for those living abroad.
Clearly you don't have any interest in talking, and that's fine, but I do feel obligated to point out that you curiously did not answer this question:
Please do explain then how literally every single other country in the world with a strong safety net and welfare system has managed to fund it without having to tax expats.
The people this law targets aren't the ones committing tax avoidance. And the US social safety net isn't fucked because of a lack money, it's fucked because it doesn't even exist in the law.
The exit tax doesn't do shit to address that. It doesn't pay for anyone's healthcare or magically make the poverty cliff go away. It's a tax on upper income workers. Meanwhile actual rich people get their money through capital gains or loans and don't pay this shit at all.
Oh but I forgot that since I own a small house in a middle class rural neighborhood and drive a Subaru that I'm "rich" so my opinion doesn't mean shit apparently.
Arguing that allowing the super wealthy to just take all their stuff and leave wouldn’t hurt the system we have now even more than it already does is one of the most asinine things I think I’ve read on the Internet. Congratulations.
Don't have much of an idea about how the tax system works, do ya?
I'm aware there's no real way to say anything here without sounding like a pretentious snob, but those income limits aren't exactly spectacularly high.
I work in tech in NYC and my income is around those limits. My boyfriend is from Switzerland and there's a non-trivial chance that we'll wind up there long-term. If I was from literally any other country in the world beyond Eritrea, I would file Swiss taxes and that would be that. Instead, I'll have a direct financial incentive to give up my native citizenship because I'm from one of two countries that makes a claim to any income earned anywhere in the world, even if I don't step foot in the country that year. This is particularly rough in Switzerland because average salaries there are quite high, and thus so are costs of living, and so surpassing those limits isn't a particularly uncommon thing. (Edit: About one in four Swiss residents make more than $120,000 annually).
I know this won't garner any sympathy at all, but a bad policy only affecting the relatively wealthy doesn't change the fact that it's a bad policy. It could even backfire from a financial perspective, since having renounced American citizenship, I'd be less inclined to spend time in the US and contribute to taxes while visiting, and I'd never move back long-term, cutting off a chance of the government getting full income taxes from me ever again, whereas a change of circumstances might have otherwise prompted me to eventually return to the US.
Not sure if you noticed, but the American social net is fucked. Mostly because of people who make a lot and not contribute back.
If you don't want to pay taxes, you don't have to participate in the American system.
If you want all the benefits and none of the costs of being American...
Someone in this thread mentioning offering violin recitials for free
Please do explain then how literally every single other country in the world with a strong safety net and welfare system has managed to fund it without having to tax expats.
Because again, in literally every single country except one African dictatorship, they interpret "the benefits" as things that you enjoy while actually being in the country, and therefore something you pay for while residing there. The ability to be a citizen of your native country is an assumed right everywhere else.
The only benefit I'd be enjoying is the right to return to my home country if I ever needed to. You don't have to pay for that in practically any other country. And so, yes, I would have to seriously think about renouncing my citizenship since I'd be paying for essentially nothing. I think that's rather unfortunate.
They tax their people more to pay for it.
It’s not rocket surgery.
The answer definitely wouldn’t be to tax the wealthy less…
Cool, renounce your citizenship then.
I'm not going to keep repeating the same things and giving you the same IRS website and hoping you magically start understanding.
We're all waiting...
They tax their rich...
What's one way we could do that... Maybe we should tax them on things like foreign property deals?
Well, we could just tax foreign income over an amount the vast amount of American workers will never earn.
....
Hopefully I got this whole conversation out of the way.
I known you don't care about facts here, but for anyone else reading this, the top 10% of American tax payers contribute 74% of all income tax. The US has one of the most progressive tax systems in the world. Stronger social nets in other countries depend on significantly higher taxes on the middle class. That of course does not mean that the extremely wealthy aren't dodging a lot of taxes, but a decently experienced tech worker or pretty much any doctor is in a very very different tax situation than Jeff Bezos etc.
By the way, again not that you care, but your average worker that earns $120,000 is not making massive international real-estate deals. In the context of Switzerland, for instance, one in four Swiss people make enough to be over the US foreign tax threshold.
Because they earn the most income...
That's what happens with percentage based taxes and rampant wealth income disparity...
The bottom of the top 10% are making 3x an average American.
And it only gets more ridiculous as you get up to the 1% which is why the top ten number is high...
Why are you so opinionated about something you don't know about?
Quick edit:
That's right, you're the rich overseas worker who doesn't want to.pay taxes
It's not that you can't understand why the wealthy should pay taxes. You just don't want pay taxes. I'll just block you so I don't fuck up and respond again
I'll just note for any readers that you still are either unable to or refuse to articulate what makes America so unique that it's essentially the only country that taxes foreign income.
The United States is one of the few countries that has a system of taxing its citizens and residents on their worldwide income, including income earned abroad. This practice is known as "citizenship-based taxation." There are a few reasons why the U.S. follows this approach:
Historical Reasons: The United States has had a system of citizenship-based taxation in place for a long time. It dates back to the Civil War era when it was implemented to fund the war effort.
Desire to Prevent Tax Evasion: Citizenship-based taxation is intended to prevent U.S. citizens and residents from avoiding taxes by moving their assets or income abroad. Without it, individuals might seek tax havens to reduce their tax liability.
Complex Tax Code: The U.S. tax code is complex, and changing to a different system, such as residence-based taxation (taxing only income earned within the country), would require a significant overhaul of tax laws.
Revenue Generation: Taxing foreign income allows the U.S. government to generate revenue from its citizens and residents, regardless of where they earn their income.
It's worth noting that while the U.S. taxes its citizens and residents on foreign income, there are mechanisms in place, such as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion and foreign tax credits, to mitigate double taxation and reduce the tax burden on income earned in other countries. However, compliance with U.S. tax laws related to foreign income can be complex and may require professional assistance for those living abroad.
Hope that helps!
Clearly you don't have any interest in talking, and that's fine, but I do feel obligated to point out that you curiously did not answer this question:
The people this law targets aren't the ones committing tax avoidance. And the US social safety net isn't fucked because of a lack money, it's fucked because it doesn't even exist in the law.
The exit tax doesn't do shit to address that. It doesn't pay for anyone's healthcare or magically make the poverty cliff go away. It's a tax on upper income workers. Meanwhile actual rich people get their money through capital gains or loans and don't pay this shit at all.
Oh but I forgot that since I own a small house in a middle class rural neighborhood and drive a Subaru that I'm "rich" so my opinion doesn't mean shit apparently.
Arguing that allowing the super wealthy to just take all their stuff and leave wouldn’t hurt the system we have now even more than it already does is one of the most asinine things I think I’ve read on the Internet. Congratulations.
Don't have much of an idea about how the tax system works, do ya?