Can you explain at least in a few sentences what do you mean by "been subject to horrific apartheid conditions for their entire lives"? It's not like Palestinians live underground and get bombed every day. What exactly makes their lifes a hell that you mention and how do you see it. Be specific, provide examples (it's okay if they are not sourced, but they have to explain the picture at least).
Most gazans have been restricted to the gaza strip under a blockade for as long as they can remember. They've been unable to import certain foods and materials for their entire lives (even pasta wasn't allowed until more recently). Sometimes, hamas or pij launches a few rockets, and maybe they kill or injure a few people if any. Israel responds by bombing the shit out of Gaza, destroying homes and killing families. When they try to peacefully protest, hundreds of them, including children medics and journalists, are killed by snipers, and tens of thousands are injured.
"58% of Gaza Strip residents required humanitarian assistance with 29% of Gazan households living in extreme or catastrophic conditions, the top two tiers of severity, against 10% in 2022."
In the west bank, Palestinians are forced out of their homes. They aren't allowed to use certain roads. They regulary are abused and killed by settlers (who aren't supposed to be there under international law), and the idf backs the settlers up. It's apartheid according to international organizations.
If I was in those conditions, and my friends or family were killed by settlers or an airstrike, I would probably want to join hamas/pij/PFLP too.
Most gazans have been restricted to the gaza strip under a blockade for as long as they can remember.
Is it so bad to be able to live on the land you were born at? Or do you go "I can't be a tourist so I have to kill Israeli"?
They've been unable to import certain foods and materials for their entire lives (even pasta wasn't allowed until more recently).
"If I can't eat certain food it's justified to kill Israeli"?
Sometimes, hamas or pij launches a few rockets, and maybe they kill or injure a few people if any.
Thanks to Israel's defenses.
Israel responds by bombing the shit out of Gaza, destroying homes and killing families.
Thanks to hamas launching rockets from civillians objects. And thanks to Gaza's (absense of) defenses. Go on, blame Israel for the fact that certain people build rockets and launch them from certain places, instead of building defenses.
When they try to peacefully protest, hundreds of them, including children medics and journalists, are killed by snipers, and tens of thousands are injured.
Those "peaceful protests" more than likely included people using slingshots. Do not fuck with an army, especially if it's an army of a different country.
"58% of Gaza Strip residents required humanitarian assistance with 29% of Gazan households living in extreme or catastrophic conditions, the top two tiers of severity, against 10% in 2022."
It almost looks like they could spend those humanitarian funds on improving their households. But not after they use enough to build tons of rockets, naturally.
In the west bank, Palestinians are forced out of their homes.
How does this work? There was a house where you lived, then someone comes and tells you "this is no longer your house"? Or "even if we never created a proper country, we always thought these were out territories, and then someone came and developed stuff of them, and we got sad and angry"?
They aren't allowed to use certain roads.
Roads that are crucial to be able to live properly? I don't suggest to stay still while you get restricted. But you gotta think what can be done about it, instead of doing terrorism. Especially when the world shows signs of caring about you. For many years too.
If I was in those conditions, and my friends or family were killed by settlers or an airstrike, I would probably want to join hamas/pij/PFLP too.
You would probably want to join people who practice launching missiles from other families' places so they get killed, and do the same. That's not smart.
I can't take you seriously when ur defending apartheid and settler colonialism like that. Disgusting.
Says someone who defends terrorism?
Yes, I don't think terrorism is always bad. Would you condemn the ANC, the Native Americans, the Viet Cong, Nat Turner, and the Algerians for doing what they had to do to fight oppression?
Did any of them ever win their fight?
Seriously, what do you propose? Israel doesn't want to spend resources on war. Hamas doesn't want to spend resources on anything but war. Israel will not liv
And you still didn't explain exactly what's happening to Palestinians that would suggest their choices are justified. Maybe if they'd be forced to live near an active volcano or something I'd consider stuff. But as it is now, they are being thrown to get killed, by hamas and not anyone else.
The native Americans and nat turner lost, the Viet Cong, the ANC, and the algerians won.
I did explain what conditions justified revolutionary violence and you said apartheid is ok actually. If you aren't willing to listen, I'm just gonna stop responding.
the Viet Cong, the ANC, and the algerians won.
Did any of them practice terrorist attacks on peaceful citizens, took hostages, broke their limbs, beheaded them and let their citizens spit on their bodies? Which exact part of strategies like that worked for them?
I did explain what conditions justified revolutionary violence
No, your explanation is literally "they lost homes and were getting killed" with no specifics. It doesn't add up with anything: how it was (not) exposed in media for years, how those deaths are only a result of specific acts of violence from Palestinians themselves, how they live in a "total isolation" that allows them to get work permits in Israel (whose numbers were increasing too), how hamas produces tons of fake news to appear more of a victim, how there is no evidence of systematic hate from the Israel side and tons of evidence of systematic hate from Palestinians' side.
Palestinians'/hamas' desire to destroy Israel is ungrounded, irresponsible, and idiotic, which basically means their violence is unprovoked. Israel is the opposite. Same as Putin with his idiotic reasoning for violence, hamas with their idiotic reasoning for violence should either surrender or be defeated as aggressors.
Yes, the ANC used to put suspected collaborators in tires and burn them alive. They also took civilian hostages and killed civilians in bombings. The Viet Cong killed about 150k civilians. The algerians killed French people regardless of their combatant status.
If we go back in history, Israel was built on ethnically cleansed land. In 1948, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were ethnically cleansed by the Zionists militaries. Since then they've continuously been oppressed, and their land has continued to be stolen. Currently, they live under apartheid conditions according to human rights organizations.
This justifies armed resistance.
Yes, the ANC used to put suspected collaborators in tires and burn them alive. They also took civilian hostages and killed civilians in bombings. The Viet Cong killed about 150k civilians. The algerians killed French people regardless of their combatant status.
Why do I have a feeling all these parties still have much less in common with hamas?
If we go back in history
If we do we'll surely find that many other people lived there, not just these 2. But some people still want to judge a land by it's past when it benefits them.
Again you didn't explain how exactly this affects their lives to an extent that they see violence as the only option.
This justifies armed resistance.
I would even agree with that. If only it would look even remotely as a resistance. As something that would eventually give a chance to anyone to get whatever they call "freedom". But it's just not that. It's a suicide. Hamas can't defeat Israel with terrorism, and even in a strange course of events it would, I can't see how it can become a proper country anyway. They would lose all support and wouldn't be able to sustain themselves.
If we do we’ll surely find that many other people lived there, not just these 2. But some people still want to judge a land by it’s past when it benefits them.
Interestingly, Palestinians (muslims christians and jews) can trace their ancestry to the Caananites mostly, which in turn decended partially from Neolithic farmers that lived in the area and partially from immigration. So it really has just been 1 people genetically and the differences are mostly just made up. If we look to today, their land is still being stolen. Israel continues to build illegal settlements in the west bank. Palestinians are denied a right to return, while people from New York are allowed to kick a Palestinian out of their home and take it. The Nakba was 75 years ago, people who were kicked out as children are still alive.
Again you didn’t explain how exactly this affects their lives to an extent that they see violence as the only option.
Again, I'll point you to human rights organizations describing the current conditions as Apartheid. They see violence as the only option, since when they peacefully protest (eg. great march of return), they get shot. And no, throwing stones does not justify that. Israeli soldiers got at most a few bruises.
There is continues settler colonialism in the West Bank, with regular violence against Palestinians living there (journalists and children included). Israel regularly overreacts to violence from Gaza by leveling civilian infrastructure without providing proof that it's being used by Hamas. In 2006, they tried to starve the population of Gaza (not to death, just to the point where they started suffering) to try and force Hamas out. Over 1000 palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons without any charges against them. Some children in prisons are held in solitary confinement (torture). A while ago it came out that Israel used to harvest organs from dead Palestinians, and currently they haven't given back a few hundred bodies iirc. And human rights organizations have describes Gaza as an open air prison. It does a garbage job keeping weapons out, but it does do a great job hurting everyday Palestinian civilians (collective punishment, a war crime).
Hamas can’t defeat Israel with terrorism
I agree with you that it seems improbable for Palestinians to beat a huge military power like Israel, but plenty of things seemed impossible yet still happened. A lot of people thought the Viet Cong couldn't win but they did. All that needs to happen is enough violence to force Israel to the bargaining table. Preferably the western world would do a BDS campaign against Israel, like we did with South Africa, but that also seems unlikely considering how much money the defense industry makes from them.
They would lose all support and wouldn’t be able to sustain themselves.
This is just speculation, we don't know what it would look like if the Palestinians won. Some post colonial states did ok for themselves, others didn't. They're surrounded by other Arab countries, so even if the western powers decide to sanction them, they'll still have some trading partners, but they would definitely be behind for a bit. Worth it in my opinion, if it means that there is relative peace.
So it really has just been 1 people genetically and the differences are mostly just made up.
As with the whole Earth population.
I couldn't find proofs that Palestinians have deeper or bigger presence over time there than Israeli.
But either way, this is something I refuse to accept as an argument. Nations move. Some not but it doesn't mean they are unable to. I'd check out specific reasons like natural disasters, resources etc. But I see no such arguments - everyone just scream "this is our land and we must take it back". Humans don't work like that and there is no need to spend tons of resources to fight for it. Adaptation is how everyone lives. Sure, spend some resources on figuring out diplomacy, but terrorism is beyond the adequate line.
I'll point you to human rights organizations describing the current conditions as Apartheid
And I thought the current condition is war.
They see violence as the only option, since when they peacefully protest (eg. great march of return), they get shot. And no, throwing stones does not justify that. Israeli soldiers got at most a few bruises.
If there was anything like throwing stones with slongshots then it wasn't a peaceful protest. We know palestinians are raised with "gotta kill a jew to become a hero and make my parents proud" thought, and it's easy to realize those were aggression actions masked as "protests". Before you judge an army for shooting them, you have to consider palestinian "protesters" would not be judged if they manage to kill anyone with a stone, they would be praised instead.
Israel regularly overreacts to violence from Gaza
"Chill up Israel, it's just a child's play"?
by leveling civilian infrastructure without providing proof that it's being used by Hamas
Maybe we should ask hamas to provide proofs that they fire missiles at military objects in Israel?
Over 1000 palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons without any charges against them. Some children in prisons are held in solitary confinement (torture)
You really can compare that to (and justify) what happend at October 7? At this point I'll kindly ask you to agree that you are applying different judgement systems for 2 nations. You allow palestinians be bloody monsters but you require that israeli would not touch them no matter what happens.
A while ago it came out that Israel used to harvest organs from dead Palestinians, and currently they haven't given back a few hundred bodies iirc.
Spooky. Any investigations of that at all?
And human rights organizations have describes Gaza as an open air prison.
It's just a nice word. If you can build rockets surely you can build something more useful, and it can't happen in a prison.
considering how much money the defense industry makes from them
There is a contradiction when people first expect the western world to take the side of Gaza in order to save lifes, and then say that the same western world really sell defense equipment for profit only and not to save lifes.
This is just speculation, we don't know what it would look like if the Palestinians won.
Basically, it would look like there is no more Israel, and a lot more of "Allahu Akbar" screams everyday all over the world, probably.
Worth it in my opinion, if it means that there is relative peace.
Worth it to get rid of Israel? Or worth it to leave a terrorist organization in power of 2 million people alone?
if it means that there is relative peace
And I thought people learned a lesson from the WW2, from the Ukraine war. Once you appease the aggressor there is no way back. And certainly no way for a peace.
Can you explain at least in a few sentences what do you mean by "been subject to horrific apartheid conditions for their entire lives"? It's not like Palestinians live underground and get bombed every day. What exactly makes their lifes a hell that you mention and how do you see it. Be specific, provide examples (it's okay if they are not sourced, but they have to explain the picture at least).
Most gazans have been restricted to the gaza strip under a blockade for as long as they can remember. They've been unable to import certain foods and materials for their entire lives (even pasta wasn't allowed until more recently). Sometimes, hamas or pij launches a few rockets, and maybe they kill or injure a few people if any. Israel responds by bombing the shit out of Gaza, destroying homes and killing families. When they try to peacefully protest, hundreds of them, including children medics and journalists, are killed by snipers, and tens of thousands are injured.
"58% of Gaza Strip residents required humanitarian assistance with 29% of Gazan households living in extreme or catastrophic conditions, the top two tiers of severity, against 10% in 2022."
In the west bank, Palestinians are forced out of their homes. They aren't allowed to use certain roads. They regulary are abused and killed by settlers (who aren't supposed to be there under international law), and the idf backs the settlers up. It's apartheid according to international organizations.
If I was in those conditions, and my friends or family were killed by settlers or an airstrike, I would probably want to join hamas/pij/PFLP too.
Is it so bad to be able to live on the land you were born at? Or do you go "I can't be a tourist so I have to kill Israeli"?
"If I can't eat certain food it's justified to kill Israeli"?
Thanks to Israel's defenses.
Thanks to hamas launching rockets from civillians objects. And thanks to Gaza's (absense of) defenses. Go on, blame Israel for the fact that certain people build rockets and launch them from certain places, instead of building defenses.
Those "peaceful protests" more than likely included people using slingshots. Do not fuck with an army, especially if it's an army of a different country.
It almost looks like they could spend those humanitarian funds on improving their households. But not after they use enough to build tons of rockets, naturally.
How does this work? There was a house where you lived, then someone comes and tells you "this is no longer your house"? Or "even if we never created a proper country, we always thought these were out territories, and then someone came and developed stuff of them, and we got sad and angry"?
Roads that are crucial to be able to live properly? I don't suggest to stay still while you get restricted. But you gotta think what can be done about it, instead of doing terrorism. Especially when the world shows signs of caring about you. For many years too.
You would probably want to join people who practice launching missiles from other families' places so they get killed, and do the same. That's not smart.
I can't take you seriously when ur defending apartheid and settler colonialism like that. Disgusting.
Says someone who defends terrorism?
Yes, I don't think terrorism is always bad. Would you condemn the ANC, the Native Americans, the Viet Cong, Nat Turner, and the Algerians for doing what they had to do to fight oppression?
Did any of them ever win their fight?
Seriously, what do you propose? Israel doesn't want to spend resources on war. Hamas doesn't want to spend resources on anything but war. Israel will not liv
And you still didn't explain exactly what's happening to Palestinians that would suggest their choices are justified. Maybe if they'd be forced to live near an active volcano or something I'd consider stuff. But as it is now, they are being thrown to get killed, by hamas and not anyone else.
The native Americans and nat turner lost, the Viet Cong, the ANC, and the algerians won.
I did explain what conditions justified revolutionary violence and you said apartheid is ok actually. If you aren't willing to listen, I'm just gonna stop responding.
Did any of them practice terrorist attacks on peaceful citizens, took hostages, broke their limbs, beheaded them and let their citizens spit on their bodies? Which exact part of strategies like that worked for them?
No, your explanation is literally "they lost homes and were getting killed" with no specifics. It doesn't add up with anything: how it was (not) exposed in media for years, how those deaths are only a result of specific acts of violence from Palestinians themselves, how they live in a "total isolation" that allows them to get work permits in Israel (whose numbers were increasing too), how hamas produces tons of fake news to appear more of a victim, how there is no evidence of systematic hate from the Israel side and tons of evidence of systematic hate from Palestinians' side.
Palestinians'/hamas' desire to destroy Israel is ungrounded, irresponsible, and idiotic, which basically means their violence is unprovoked. Israel is the opposite. Same as Putin with his idiotic reasoning for violence, hamas with their idiotic reasoning for violence should either surrender or be defeated as aggressors.
Yes, the ANC used to put suspected collaborators in tires and burn them alive. They also took civilian hostages and killed civilians in bombings. The Viet Cong killed about 150k civilians. The algerians killed French people regardless of their combatant status.
If we go back in history, Israel was built on ethnically cleansed land. In 1948, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were ethnically cleansed by the Zionists militaries. Since then they've continuously been oppressed, and their land has continued to be stolen. Currently, they live under apartheid conditions according to human rights organizations.
This justifies armed resistance.
Why do I have a feeling all these parties still have much less in common with hamas?
If we do we'll surely find that many other people lived there, not just these 2. But some people still want to judge a land by it's past when it benefits them.
Again you didn't explain how exactly this affects their lives to an extent that they see violence as the only option.
I would even agree with that. If only it would look even remotely as a resistance. As something that would eventually give a chance to anyone to get whatever they call "freedom". But it's just not that. It's a suicide. Hamas can't defeat Israel with terrorism, and even in a strange course of events it would, I can't see how it can become a proper country anyway. They would lose all support and wouldn't be able to sustain themselves.
Interestingly, Palestinians (muslims christians and jews) can trace their ancestry to the Caananites mostly, which in turn decended partially from Neolithic farmers that lived in the area and partially from immigration. So it really has just been 1 people genetically and the differences are mostly just made up. If we look to today, their land is still being stolen. Israel continues to build illegal settlements in the west bank. Palestinians are denied a right to return, while people from New York are allowed to kick a Palestinian out of their home and take it. The Nakba was 75 years ago, people who were kicked out as children are still alive.
Again, I'll point you to human rights organizations describing the current conditions as Apartheid. They see violence as the only option, since when they peacefully protest (eg. great march of return), they get shot. And no, throwing stones does not justify that. Israeli soldiers got at most a few bruises.
There is continues settler colonialism in the West Bank, with regular violence against Palestinians living there (journalists and children included). Israel regularly overreacts to violence from Gaza by leveling civilian infrastructure without providing proof that it's being used by Hamas. In 2006, they tried to starve the population of Gaza (not to death, just to the point where they started suffering) to try and force Hamas out. Over 1000 palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons without any charges against them. Some children in prisons are held in solitary confinement (torture). A while ago it came out that Israel used to harvest organs from dead Palestinians, and currently they haven't given back a few hundred bodies iirc. And human rights organizations have describes Gaza as an open air prison. It does a garbage job keeping weapons out, but it does do a great job hurting everyday Palestinian civilians (collective punishment, a war crime).
I agree with you that it seems improbable for Palestinians to beat a huge military power like Israel, but plenty of things seemed impossible yet still happened. A lot of people thought the Viet Cong couldn't win but they did. All that needs to happen is enough violence to force Israel to the bargaining table. Preferably the western world would do a BDS campaign against Israel, like we did with South Africa, but that also seems unlikely considering how much money the defense industry makes from them.
This is just speculation, we don't know what it would look like if the Palestinians won. Some post colonial states did ok for themselves, others didn't. They're surrounded by other Arab countries, so even if the western powers decide to sanction them, they'll still have some trading partners, but they would definitely be behind for a bit. Worth it in my opinion, if it means that there is relative peace.
As with the whole Earth population. I couldn't find proofs that Palestinians have deeper or bigger presence over time there than Israeli.
But either way, this is something I refuse to accept as an argument. Nations move. Some not but it doesn't mean they are unable to. I'd check out specific reasons like natural disasters, resources etc. But I see no such arguments - everyone just scream "this is our land and we must take it back". Humans don't work like that and there is no need to spend tons of resources to fight for it. Adaptation is how everyone lives. Sure, spend some resources on figuring out diplomacy, but terrorism is beyond the adequate line.
And I thought the current condition is war.
If there was anything like throwing stones with slongshots then it wasn't a peaceful protest. We know palestinians are raised with "gotta kill a jew to become a hero and make my parents proud" thought, and it's easy to realize those were aggression actions masked as "protests". Before you judge an army for shooting them, you have to consider palestinian "protesters" would not be judged if they manage to kill anyone with a stone, they would be praised instead.
"Chill up Israel, it's just a child's play"?
Maybe we should ask hamas to provide proofs that they fire missiles at military objects in Israel?
You really can compare that to (and justify) what happend at October 7? At this point I'll kindly ask you to agree that you are applying different judgement systems for 2 nations. You allow palestinians be bloody monsters but you require that israeli would not touch them no matter what happens.
Spooky. Any investigations of that at all?
It's just a nice word. If you can build rockets surely you can build something more useful, and it can't happen in a prison.
There is a contradiction when people first expect the western world to take the side of Gaza in order to save lifes, and then say that the same western world really sell defense equipment for profit only and not to save lifes.
Basically, it would look like there is no more Israel, and a lot more of "Allahu Akbar" screams everyday all over the world, probably.
Worth it to get rid of Israel? Or worth it to leave a terrorist organization in power of 2 million people alone?
And I thought people learned a lesson from the WW2, from the Ukraine war. Once you appease the aggressor there is no way back. And certainly no way for a peace.