Let's see what new excuse the US and Europe come up with to justify this while condemning the same acts by Russia.
Easy don’t acknowledge that anything‘s going on now. I’ve been watching western news media and there is now no coverage of Russia Ukraine situation.l, other then US politicians trying to get an aid package to Ukraine. Unsurprisingly, it’ll be tied to aid for Israel. This way they don’t need to preform mental gymnastics to condemn Russia and not Israel. I think the only story I’ve seen about Ukraine was about a family of 9 that was massacred in their sleep.
The war of Russia against Ukraine is still covered in most news – its just not happening much due to the current stalemate.
The general consensus regarding Israel is the same like before the war: the Settling is breaking international law and needs to stop. At the same time Hamas is a terrorist organization. It's a classic 'everybody sucks here – but one side is significantly worse' and the palestinians are suffering from the conflict between Hamas and Israel.
War in Ukraine is still very much covered in the print/digital news. My two go-tos (the guardian and the bbc) both have dedicated section for the Russian Invasion.
I don't watch television news, but I can imagine there is less coverage on that simply because there is not much suitable video content to be broadcast and what there is is usually several days, or even weeks old for operational reasons.
Come on, we're not monsters... We'll express our concern and politely ask them to stop.
"I'm alarmed"
Biden slam lone wolf attacks on Palestinian at West Bank
"It's a lone wolf attack, there's nothing we can do about it." Said Benjamin Netanyahu when questioned.
Those pesky wolves. Running around kicking people out of their homes. Wut ya gunna do?
"we arm them!"
"the villagers?"
"no, the wolfs!"
It's both infuriating and embarrassing
For countries where killing millions abroad is simply a mistake, killing thousands doesn't even register in the conscience.
The article says that the only repercussions will be "talks" with the soldiers.
Just a few bad apples, right?
Remember when they shot a journalist in the head and provided a fake investigation into it that they then took back but still concluded in the end that the journalist was at fault for getting shot?
Remember when they crushed a 23 years old woman from the US to death with a bulldozer because she was protesting the demolition of palestinian homes, then they started an "investigation" where they found out they hadn't done anything wrong because they didn't see her even though the woman has been protesting there for hours and the soldiers that were there testified that she was being a nuisance for hours?
Remember the laws they passed that let the IDF destroy palestinian homes if they deem by internal investigation that they're somehow connected to "terrorism"?
Remember the laws that let IDF soldiers shoot kids if they throw rocks at soldiers in occupied territories?
There's actually more, but man i will be very depressed and angry if i keep looking.
Remember the march of return? That was fun. /s
In response to the evidence, the IDF said that “the [soldiers’] conduct that emerges from these scenes is grave and inconsistent with the values of the IDF. The incidents are under investigation. The IDF commanders will hold talks with all the soldiers on the front. One soldier has been dismissed from reserve service.”
Being dismissed from service is too little for actual murder.
Better than transfered to another department.
Agreed, but none of these incidents involve murder.
shot a journalist in the head
crushed a 23 years old woman from the US to death with a bulldozer
You suck.
Hey look it's some asshole who didn't read the fucking article and they're quoting some other asshole who didn't read the fucking article and who's somehow oblivious to the comment from the person I replied to that says "oh I didn't read the article." (emphasis added)
Although I'm awed by your commitment to being the dumbest motherfucker on the planet, you could've spared yourself getting so upset about this water-is-wet statement of fact by just reading for a minute before opening your dumb mouth.
Your previous comment was pretty vague about what you were responding to. You should have made it clear you were responding to the article and not the comment you actually replied to because that's what it sounds like. You really don't have a right to respond this aggressively.
I disagree about the clarity. It's a thread of replies that begins with a direct quote from the article. Any vagueness could be cleared up by either asking a question or reading the article.
When someone replies directly to me quoting something completely irrelevant and unrelated saying "you suck," I reserve the right to mock them. Especially when my original comment should be as controversial as saying the article was published in the Times of Israel on November 1st.
On top of making a shit ton of incorrect assumptions that were unjustified you doubled down on proving you suck.
Keep up the good work champ.
I'll stand by my assessment that you suck.
Meh. I'll live.
I made a single, well-founded assumption that you didn't read the article. If you did read it, it's worse. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that, had you read it, you would have actually replied to what I said and not posted something completely irrelevant.
Care to elaborate on how videos not depicting death of any kind are evidence of murder? Or what the IDF's very specific response to the very specific crimes shown on these very specific videos has to do with what you quoted? Or what that has to do with my very narrow (and true) statement that the videos in question don't depict murder?
Oh I hadn't read the article; so this time it's not murder. My point still stands but I guess that's a relief.
Just imagine if Hamas were investigating humiliation of Israeli civilians by its fighters and having any punishment for that.
Just imagine trying to use a terrorist mob as a yardstick to excuse the misdeeds of the advanced 21st century military of a modern democracy.
I wouldn't go as far as to claim Israel is a modern democracy.. but I agree with the advanced 21st century military part.
No excuses, but it helps to remember context. People are people, and there are always shitty people in any state. It is what considered acceptable is important. What more do you want from IDF? Execution without investigation?
Also this is honestly goes as nitpicking. Yes, there are always bad apples. But as far as I can see IDF reacts correctly. It is disturbing in my opinion that there is so much anti-Israel propaganda (not even criticism) is ongoing and supported by clearly more than half of the fediverse (judging by upvoting), where even correct behavior is criticized, and completely ignores the realities that Israel has to deal with. Not even criticizing the use of Himan shields by Hamas, for example.
What more do you want from IDF? Execution without investigation?
Oh, heavens no. That's not what I want from the idf. At this point, that's what I want for the idf.
It's worrying for me that you're confusing anti-israel propaganda with anti-terrorism discussion. At this point, Israel is a terrorist state. It shouldn't 'disturb' you that people discuss about it and find that they don't agree with their actions. People are rarely alright with mindless murder for any reason, let alone for land-grabbing masked as religion. Bombing civilians and hospitals, humiliating people because you're holding a gun and get off on being "powerful", raping people and committing war crimes, ethnically cleansing a region for the past 70 years, holy shit, this is what you see from a terrorist organization masquerading as a legitimate state and you draw the conclusion that it's disturbing to be against that? Maybe you should be disturbed by your misshapen world view where all of this is acceptable.
The most moral army in the world they say, Forces of Light against forces of Darkness they say
They are reveling on spilling Arab blood unhindered, indulging in the most vicious fetish of a supremacist ideology . humanity can go fuck itself
Reminder that the West Bank is under Israeli occupation against international law (UN resolutions 446, 452, 465, 471, 476 (not an exhaustive list); the Venice Declaration) since 1967. The only countries to deny illegality are: Israel (and the US if you believe Donald Trump lol). This is an exhaustive list.
Disgusting to see what Israel started to do, as soon as they can unhindered.
moral army
Lol there's no such thing.
Literally every violent conflict is filled wth abuses on all sides.
Having mercifully never been in a war, I don't know how it feels. But it's easy to see how individual soldiers just snap, and do completely unhinged shit.
For example we all agree the Nazis and Imperial Japanese were despicable. Yet learning about how Allied soldiers would execute prisoners, extract body parts (teeth, ears) as trophies, and so on, really brought home to me how even the most "necessary" wars, even in self-defense, are grotesque perversions of human nature.
This sounds like when pics emerged of American troops pointing finger-guns at the genitals of Muslim men in potato sacks on baskets.
Holy shit, I can't find the Gitmo pics of the lady doing fingerguns at their junks. I'm sure I could if I spent enough time, but 4-5 searches didn't get their. That's even more disturbing. This was a huge issue.
Look for "Abu Ghraib pictures" and you'll find them.
It doesn't make it right, but those were mistreated POWs who arguably didn't have Geneva protections.
These are apparently random civilians.
Torture is torture, no matter if those in Iraq were civilians, guerilleros, militias or regular armed forces. It does not change a thing about the crime.
I think this is correct.
Torture is dehumanization.
If you're willing to torture a terrorist, or even a serial killer or something, then you have it in your nature to torture anyone for any reason.
Like people who abuse animals. It's engaging in and cultivating a very dark part of a person's nature, which can manifest in many different ways.
If you want to pretend it's not worse to torture random civilians out of pure spite than militants that's on you I guess.
Makes no difference. If torturing enemy combatants was acceptable, there would be no Geneva conventions. The moment they are captured and seize to actively take part in the conflict, they are protected from further harm.
So you believe that a single murder is just as evil as a genocide? That there is not a scale to evil?
That all crimes should result in the same sentence?
Because that is what you are arguing, that all evil is the same, and equally contemptible, with no shades of guilt or nuance.
I disagree, and I don't think you actually believe that either.
Nobody is arguing that it is more or less evil. The militant POW may face their own trials after the war, where a punishment is decided. But while they are a POW, they are unable to cause any damages. So they are also not allowed to be tortured.
You will find that the actual laws of the Geneva Conventions only protect signatories and those that agreed to abide by the rules, which Hamas and any terrorist organization by definition does not. Rather specifically does not.
But, as mentioned, irrelevant to the civilians in question as they are protected.
Random terrorists, though? Legally they can be shot and dumped in the nearest ditch.
Of course, legality is not morality.
Where did "single murder" and "genocide" come from anyway?
When they argued there isn't a difference between torturing random civilians for fun and humiliating (suspected) terrorists.
Lynch mobs are outlawed for a reason.
Ah, so that was just humiliation! I was not aware that that was what they were actually doing with the dogs and electric wires.
Some of those prisoners were not militants, just random civilians. Turned in by thier neighbors for a quick buck, is what happened.
Even I, who think the Palestinian leadership is full of shit and has been full of shit since before 1948, and think that using meat shields to protect military assets is the war crime, and that the civilian deaths that are occurring in the destruction of said tunnels are the foreseeable consequences of the aforementioned war crime, WILDLY AND ADAMANTLY DISAGREE WITH YOU. What my government did in Gitmo, The fact that there was a prison at all at Gitmo, is a shitstain on American honor. What these individuals in the IDF are doing, or are allowing fucking nut bag whacko settlers to do, is a shit stain on the reputation of Israel.
Didn't say it wasn't.
I said there's a difference between that and torturing random civilians for kicks.
All pow's are protected under the conventions...
That's why they created the "enemy combatant" nonsense, so they could "legally" torture people.
No no no you don't get it. We don't torture prisoners of war, that would be wrong. We may have subjected an enemy combatant to enhanced interrogation including intimate humiliation until the combatant achieved cessation of vitality, but that's different because I want it to be.
would this be after we decided that every male over the age of 12 was an enemy combatant regardless of their actions?
If you've got a picture of a twelve year old in Abu Ghraib, feel free to share.
Or don't, because, you know.
Or the torture in Abu Ghraib prison. But don't worry, the perpetrators got severely punished by being dishonorably discharged from the US Army. Then two of them married each other.
Edit: Looks like you are already referring to the Abu Ghraib tortures.
I'm unfamiliar with that event but what does two of them getting married have to do with anything? Seems a very strange thing to include.
Tongue-in-cheek to illustrate the absurdity of the situation. They permanently damaged others' lives and went on without repercussions other than a slap on the wrist.
Ah okay, thanks for the clarification
And apparently they each found a soulmate that also enjoys torturing people, which is nice for them I guess.
Wow, I really thought "this guy just didn't look hard enough, they're there".
In another scene of violence caught on camera, a soldier kicks a blindfolded Palestinian man in the stomach, then spits on him and insults him in Arabic.
In one instance, a religious Jewish reserve soldier hugs a blindfolded, handcuffed Palestinian on the shoulders, and dances with him in circles while he plays religious music on his phone. He asks him, “Why don’t you dance” as the blindfolded man loses his balance.
These are the good guys. You know, the ones that don't want violence and only want to be safe from external threats.
That’s sadism.
Yep. It's just about finding someone and hurting them because you're afraid and angry.
Where does that over-stated theory that hatred and violence are rooted in fear even come from? I hear it every time violent incidents happen, but I have yet to see any evidence that you need to fear something in order to hate it.
Its more a lack of understanding, ergo a lack of empathy.
Sometimes they are (if you had a cat or a dog, you know), though definitely not always, but it's also the opposite order - first people feel impunity and do bad things to others, and then they fear justice and hate the victim because of that fear.
That makes sense, thanks.
Fear of death, endemic to human consciousness. Also, Star Wars.
Israel needs therapy.
Israel needs therapy.
With everything that's been happening in the world as of late, we all need therapy.
Betterhelp sponsored them, but its also kinda shit so maybe thats why the soldiers are so fucked up
“That’s cool and all but do you condemn Hamas though?”
/s
I believe none of the people that committed the terror attack of 10/7 are in the West Bank.
Even if hundreds were there, maybe they should work with the PLO to get rid of a theoretical common enemy? Nope, oppression of all Palestinians is the real goal of the IDF. They hate all Palestinian groups because they want all of them gone at some point in the future. If they wanted any sort of peace or coexistence, they would be bankrolling Palestinians who oppose Hamas, but they don't, so they don't. Those evil fucks willingly endanger their own citizens by empowering reactionary fuckheads like Hamas. It's awful.
How can Hamas do this
They can't, too busy actually murdering and planning on their next murder operation using the UN funds.
Yes, but they aren't doing this in addition to that like Israel is. Pretty bad when the good guys are as bad or worse than Hamas.
You sure about that? Breaking limbs and beheading hostages is better in your book than this?
Israel over the last 20 years has slaughtered so many Gazans it makes the recent Hamas attacks kind of look puny. Neither one of them is justified. And yes I'm sure this is just basic verifiable facts that everyone who's been paying attention knows.
Why did you switch your argument from "Israel is worse because they are not only killing but also humiliating Palestinians when compared to hamas who only kill" to "Israel has killed more Palestinians than got Israeli people killed"? It's only natural to have Israel less casualties because Israel actually tries to protect its citizens before and during attacks, when compared to Palestine.
I literally didn't change my argument. I think you're reading comprehension is failing.
I got no problem with Israel trying to protect their citizens. What I do have a problem with. Is them running an open air genocide camp. Giving people little option but to host or tolerate Hamas. And killing indiscriminately. Israel could be doing things differently. Should be doing things differently. But people like yourself don't care and we'll defend them to the death. Refusing to give them any valid critique.
Israel could be doing things differently.
How for example?
Refusing to give them any valid critique.
By "them" you surely mean Israel. What if I tell you the same about hamas? They said they will not stop their attacks until they destroy Israel, that's about 9 million lifes. I give a valid critique to this: fuck them, it's valid for any country to intervene and try to stop hamas. Would be great of they could educate Palestinians properly after that, but removing such a threat is a priority.
How for example?
Gee, I wonder how you get rid of an extremist resistance organization built out of the hatred of a people that has been subject to horrific apartheid conditions for their entire lives. Maybe undermining that hatred by treating palestinians like human beings is worth a shot? Or we can go ahead and keep killing their families, I'm sure that'll get rid of hamas.
Can you explain at least in a few sentences what do you mean by "been subject to horrific apartheid conditions for their entire lives"? It's not like Palestinians live underground and get bombed every day. What exactly makes their lifes a hell that you mention and how do you see it. Be specific, provide examples (it's okay if they are not sourced, but they have to explain the picture at least).
Most gazans have been restricted to the gaza strip under a blockade for as long as they can remember. They've been unable to import certain foods and materials for their entire lives (even pasta wasn't allowed until more recently). Sometimes, hamas or pij launches a few rockets, and maybe they kill or injure a few people if any. Israel responds by bombing the shit out of Gaza, destroying homes and killing families. When they try to peacefully protest, hundreds of them, including children medics and journalists, are killed by snipers, and tens of thousands are injured.
"58% of Gaza Strip residents required humanitarian assistance with 29% of Gazan households living in extreme or catastrophic conditions, the top two tiers of severity, against 10% in 2022."
In the west bank, Palestinians are forced out of their homes. They aren't allowed to use certain roads. They regulary are abused and killed by settlers (who aren't supposed to be there under international law), and the idf backs the settlers up. It's apartheid according to international organizations.
If I was in those conditions, and my friends or family were killed by settlers or an airstrike, I would probably want to join hamas/pij/PFLP too.
Most gazans have been restricted to the gaza strip under a blockade for as long as they can remember.
Is it so bad to be able to live on the land you were born at? Or do you go "I can't be a tourist so I have to kill Israeli"?
They've been unable to import certain foods and materials for their entire lives (even pasta wasn't allowed until more recently).
"If I can't eat certain food it's justified to kill Israeli"?
Sometimes, hamas or pij launches a few rockets, and maybe they kill or injure a few people if any.
Thanks to Israel's defenses.
Israel responds by bombing the shit out of Gaza, destroying homes and killing families.
Thanks to hamas launching rockets from civillians objects. And thanks to Gaza's (absense of) defenses. Go on, blame Israel for the fact that certain people build rockets and launch them from certain places, instead of building defenses.
When they try to peacefully protest, hundreds of them, including children medics and journalists, are killed by snipers, and tens of thousands are injured.
Those "peaceful protests" more than likely included people using slingshots. Do not fuck with an army, especially if it's an army of a different country.
"58% of Gaza Strip residents required humanitarian assistance with 29% of Gazan households living in extreme or catastrophic conditions, the top two tiers of severity, against 10% in 2022."
It almost looks like they could spend those humanitarian funds on improving their households. But not after they use enough to build tons of rockets, naturally.
In the west bank, Palestinians are forced out of their homes.
How does this work? There was a house where you lived, then someone comes and tells you "this is no longer your house"? Or "even if we never created a proper country, we always thought these were out territories, and then someone came and developed stuff of them, and we got sad and angry"?
They aren't allowed to use certain roads.
Roads that are crucial to be able to live properly? I don't suggest to stay still while you get restricted. But you gotta think what can be done about it, instead of doing terrorism. Especially when the world shows signs of caring about you. For many years too.
If I was in those conditions, and my friends or family were killed by settlers or an airstrike, I would probably want to join hamas/pij/PFLP too.
You would probably want to join people who practice launching missiles from other families' places so they get killed, and do the same. That's not smart.
Why is American media not showing any of this? Reading or watching US news is like being in a parallel universe.
Israel is really good at misinformation, disinformation, information warfare and controlled narratives.
Isn't misinformation and disinformation the same thing?
Almost. Disinformation is lying, while misinformation can be whaddaboutisms and/or a blackout of the inconvenient truths. Misinformation can include true facts, but use outliers as proof to their veracity. Misinformation can also include disinformation, but play semantics to minimize the controversies of labeling lies as the lies that they are.
Hamas continues to send missiles and hiding in areas barred from being attacked by military attacks from the rules of warfare.
IDF says that they will not hold back on their counter-attacks, that the Palestinians were warned.
I see Russia attack Ukraine with the same terrorist targeting of civilian casualties as Hamas and Israel. My fear is that this is how warfare will be fought until enough carnage is inflicted that all sides see the consequences of breaking rules of engagement.
Morally, both sides (IDF and Hamas) have been bad for decades.
I thought about posting this to the community. Should I? It breaks my heart that we are collectively letting this happen.
absolutely should. The heinous aspect of a truth should actually highlight the importance of it being common knowledge. It is in ignoring and burying it to avoid discomfort that helps enable repeating that which led to it.
Are there media outlets in other countries, other than Israel, running articles like this? It would be interesting to know what you're comparing it to.
Al Jazeera has good reporting usually. YouTube tells me they have questionable funding, I haven't followed up on it.
Their funding is questionable but their coverage of the region is really good. They also cover a ton of topics in SE Asia that are only really touched upon otherwise by the BBC.
Israel has specifically threatened the families of Al Jazeera's Palestinian team. That tells me all I need to know.
"The IDF has investigated ourselves, and we have found we have done nothing wrong."
You have everyday Israelis posting racist tiktoks making fun of Palestinian deaths, it was a given that if you take those same civilians and give them guns the abusive behavior would just get worse.
“The IDF has investigated ourselves, and we have found we have done nothing wrong.”
From the article...
In response to the evidence, the IDF said that “the [soldiers’] conduct that emerges from these scenes is grave and inconsistent with the values of the IDF. The incidents are under investigation. The IDF commanders will hold talks with all the soldiers on the front. One soldier has been dismissed from reserve service.”
Not saying that the IDF is right on this one, at all, but all armies have aholes in them who do crap like this.
So they quick way out of reserve service is to just film yourself committing war crimes? That seems like a reward not a punishment. They should be in prison, not at home
So they quick way out of reserve service
I wasn't speaking towards that.
I was calling someone out for falsely quoting something that wasn't said.
This is the issue of apartheid. Apartheid doesn't mean the government is evil, but it protects evil people when they do evil things.
When you have two populations with unequal rights, there's going to be some assholes who are going to exploit that. That's just human nature
It's also a feature of fascism. The police didn't do anything to stop brown shirts from burning down Jewish businesses.
Sorry but how does that not make the government "evil"? Protecting or causing evil, same outcome in the end.
Well, the International Court of Justice will thankfully take any piece of evidence for war crimes.
Only brown and Muslim people and communists are capable of war crimes. westerners bring freedom and liberal democracy and civilization, those are love filled bombs, they bring with them the love of Jesus Christ , yes they might kill you now, but will save you later.
You should add that little clarification that brown and Muslim people mysteriously stop being capable of war crimes when they are Turk fascists.
You give people unchecked power over other people, and it will be abused. Occupying armies, prisons, police, clergy, you name it.
We just aren't nice monkeys. So power has to be transparent and accountable.
Vote Matrix/SkyNet 2024!
/s
Vote Matrix/SkyNet 2024!
I'm not sure that I agree with their population policies though.
Whatever you do, do not riot for bread in Bakersfield.
If you do the Running Man will chase you down.
At the end of the article they point out that they don't know how many of the reported casualties on the Palestinian side are Hamas fighters, but at the same time don't do the same with the Israelian casualties, and I believe around 300 were IDF soldiers.
Apart from that I think at least they are reasonable and also seem to be critical to their government's handling of the crisis.
And it is saddening what is happening in the West bank with the silent approval of authorities and army, that's called oppression and racism and isn't a good start for a much needed peaceful process.
There are no Hamas on the West bank I'm told. They are restricted to Gaza and that's why it was an open air prison. These are just Palestinians that live and work there, but are not connected to Gaza.
Besides that, they moved all the real soldiers and reservists to the frontline and allowed among others, settlers to do the policing in the region with maybe 1 IDF person in charge when shit happens. I truly believe that's the reason why we're seeing this. It's assholes driving around, looking for Palestinians torturing and killing them. Afterwards it's always in self defense.
Humanity is lost
Not if we band together and force the others to change, or cut them off so their actions can no longer influence reality or discourse.
Just hold your cats, dogs or children if you have them, close, bury your face in their bellies and take a deep breath...it really helps.
That's... creepy as fuck but we like the sentiment, I guess?
Guys, is it creepy to express affection?!
Well, you're close I guess. It's called genocide.
and we are funding it.
War brings out the worst in people.
What do you mean war, the west bank is not controlled by hamas.
This is brutalisation by an occupying force on a population living in an Israeli controlled Bantustan.
Occupation is war. Apartheid is war. Oppression is a war on the oppressed.
Let's see what new excuse the US and Europe come up with to justify this while condemning the same acts by Russia.
Easy don’t acknowledge that anything‘s going on now. I’ve been watching western news media and there is now no coverage of Russia Ukraine situation.l, other then US politicians trying to get an aid package to Ukraine. Unsurprisingly, it’ll be tied to aid for Israel. This way they don’t need to preform mental gymnastics to condemn Russia and not Israel. I think the only story I’ve seen about Ukraine was about a family of 9 that was massacred in their sleep.
The war of Russia against Ukraine is still covered in most news – its just not happening much due to the current stalemate.
The general consensus regarding Israel is the same like before the war: the Settling is breaking international law and needs to stop. At the same time Hamas is a terrorist organization. It's a classic 'everybody sucks here – but one side is significantly worse' and the palestinians are suffering from the conflict between Hamas and Israel.
War in Ukraine is still very much covered in the print/digital news. My two go-tos (the guardian and the bbc) both have dedicated section for the Russian Invasion.
I don't watch television news, but I can imagine there is less coverage on that simply because there is not much suitable video content to be broadcast and what there is is usually several days, or even weeks old for operational reasons.
Come on, we're not monsters... We'll express our concern and politely ask them to stop.
"I'm alarmed"
Biden slam lone wolf attacks on Palestinian at West Bank
"It's a lone wolf attack, there's nothing we can do about it." Said Benjamin Netanyahu when questioned.
Those pesky wolves. Running around kicking people out of their homes. Wut ya gunna do?
"we arm them!"
"the villagers?"
"no, the wolfs!"
It's both infuriating and embarrassing
For countries where killing millions abroad is simply a mistake, killing thousands doesn't even register in the conscience.
The article says that the only repercussions will be "talks" with the soldiers.
Just a few bad apples, right?
Remember when they shot a journalist in the head and provided a fake investigation into it that they then took back but still concluded in the end that the journalist was at fault for getting shot?
Remember when they crushed a 23 years old woman from the US to death with a bulldozer because she was protesting the demolition of palestinian homes, then they started an "investigation" where they found out they hadn't done anything wrong because they didn't see her even though the woman has been protesting there for hours and the soldiers that were there testified that she was being a nuisance for hours?
Remember the laws they passed that let the IDF destroy palestinian homes if they deem by internal investigation that they're somehow connected to "terrorism"?
Remember the laws that let IDF soldiers shoot kids if they throw rocks at soldiers in occupied territories?
Yeah... just a few bad apples.
Remember when IDF used life round to disperse the protestor for protesting their land being taken over, and to make it a point they fired a shot right at the innocent 9 years old boy that's not in the scene?
There's actually more, but man i will be very depressed and angry if i keep looking.
Remember the march of return? That was fun. /s
Being dismissed from service is too little for actual murder.
Better than transfered to another department.
Agreed, but none of these incidents involve murder.
You suck.
Hey look it's some asshole who didn't read the fucking article and they're quoting some other asshole who didn't read the fucking article and who's somehow oblivious to the comment from the person I replied to that says "oh I didn't read the article." (emphasis added)
Although I'm awed by your commitment to being the dumbest motherfucker on the planet, you could've spared yourself getting so upset about this water-is-wet statement of fact by just reading for a minute before opening your dumb mouth.
Your previous comment was pretty vague about what you were responding to. You should have made it clear you were responding to the article and not the comment you actually replied to because that's what it sounds like. You really don't have a right to respond this aggressively.
I disagree about the clarity. It's a thread of replies that begins with a direct quote from the article. Any vagueness could be cleared up by either asking a question or reading the article.
When someone replies directly to me quoting something completely irrelevant and unrelated saying "you suck," I reserve the right to mock them. Especially when my original comment should be as controversial as saying the article was published in the Times of Israel on November 1st.
On top of making a shit ton of incorrect assumptions that were unjustified you doubled down on proving you suck.
Keep up the good work champ.
I'll stand by my assessment that you suck.
Meh. I'll live.
I made a single, well-founded assumption that you didn't read the article. If you did read it, it's worse. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that, had you read it, you would have actually replied to what I said and not posted something completely irrelevant.
Care to elaborate on how videos not depicting death of any kind are evidence of murder? Or what the IDF's very specific response to the very specific crimes shown on these very specific videos has to do with what you quoted? Or what that has to do with my very narrow (and true) statement that the videos in question don't depict murder?
Oh I hadn't read the article; so this time it's not murder. My point still stands but I guess that's a relief.
Just imagine if Hamas were investigating humiliation of Israeli civilians by its fighters and having any punishment for that.
Just imagine trying to use a terrorist mob as a yardstick to excuse the misdeeds of the advanced 21st century military of a modern democracy.
I wouldn't go as far as to claim Israel is a modern democracy.. but I agree with the advanced 21st century military part.
No excuses, but it helps to remember context. People are people, and there are always shitty people in any state. It is what considered acceptable is important. What more do you want from IDF? Execution without investigation?
Also this is honestly goes as nitpicking. Yes, there are always bad apples. But as far as I can see IDF reacts correctly. It is disturbing in my opinion that there is so much anti-Israel propaganda (not even criticism) is ongoing and supported by clearly more than half of the fediverse (judging by upvoting), where even correct behavior is criticized, and completely ignores the realities that Israel has to deal with. Not even criticizing the use of Himan shields by Hamas, for example.
Oh, heavens no. That's not what I want from the idf. At this point, that's what I want for the idf.
It's worrying for me that you're confusing anti-israel propaganda with anti-terrorism discussion. At this point, Israel is a terrorist state. It shouldn't 'disturb' you that people discuss about it and find that they don't agree with their actions. People are rarely alright with mindless murder for any reason, let alone for land-grabbing masked as religion. Bombing civilians and hospitals, humiliating people because you're holding a gun and get off on being "powerful", raping people and committing war crimes, ethnically cleansing a region for the past 70 years, holy shit, this is what you see from a terrorist organization masquerading as a legitimate state and you draw the conclusion that it's disturbing to be against that? Maybe you should be disturbed by your misshapen world view where all of this is acceptable.
The most moral army in the world they say, Forces of Light against forces of Darkness they say
They are reveling on spilling Arab blood unhindered, indulging in the most vicious fetish of a supremacist ideology . humanity can go fuck itself
Reminder that the West Bank is under Israeli occupation against international law (UN resolutions 446, 452, 465, 471, 476 (not an exhaustive list); the Venice Declaration) since 1967. The only countries to deny illegality are: Israel (and the US if you believe Donald Trump lol). This is an exhaustive list.
Disgusting to see what Israel started to do, as soon as they can unhindered.
Lol there's no such thing.
Literally every violent conflict is filled wth abuses on all sides.
Having mercifully never been in a war, I don't know how it feels. But it's easy to see how individual soldiers just snap, and do completely unhinged shit.
For example we all agree the Nazis and Imperial Japanese were despicable. Yet learning about how Allied soldiers would execute prisoners, extract body parts (teeth, ears) as trophies, and so on, really brought home to me how even the most "necessary" wars, even in self-defense, are grotesque perversions of human nature.
This sounds like when pics emerged of American troops pointing finger-guns at the genitals of Muslim men in potato sacks on baskets.
Holy shit, I can't find the Gitmo pics of the lady doing fingerguns at their junks. I'm sure I could if I spent enough time, but 4-5 searches didn't get their. That's even more disturbing. This was a huge issue.
Look for "Abu Ghraib pictures" and you'll find them.
Also, here - https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse
It doesn't make it right, but those were mistreated POWs who arguably didn't have Geneva protections.
These are apparently random civilians.
Torture is torture, no matter if those in Iraq were civilians, guerilleros, militias or regular armed forces. It does not change a thing about the crime.
I think this is correct.
Torture is dehumanization.
If you're willing to torture a terrorist, or even a serial killer or something, then you have it in your nature to torture anyone for any reason.
Like people who abuse animals. It's engaging in and cultivating a very dark part of a person's nature, which can manifest in many different ways.
If you want to pretend it's not worse to torture random civilians out of pure spite than militants that's on you I guess.
Makes no difference. If torturing enemy combatants was acceptable, there would be no Geneva conventions. The moment they are captured and seize to actively take part in the conflict, they are protected from further harm.
So you believe that a single murder is just as evil as a genocide? That there is not a scale to evil?
That all crimes should result in the same sentence?
Because that is what you are arguing, that all evil is the same, and equally contemptible, with no shades of guilt or nuance.
I disagree, and I don't think you actually believe that either.
Nobody is arguing that it is more or less evil. The militant POW may face their own trials after the war, where a punishment is decided. But while they are a POW, they are unable to cause any damages. So they are also not allowed to be tortured.
You will find that the actual laws of the Geneva Conventions only protect signatories and those that agreed to abide by the rules, which Hamas and any terrorist organization by definition does not. Rather specifically does not.
But, as mentioned, irrelevant to the civilians in question as they are protected.
Random terrorists, though? Legally they can be shot and dumped in the nearest ditch.
Of course, legality is not morality.
Where did "single murder" and "genocide" come from anyway?
When they argued there isn't a difference between torturing random civilians for fun and humiliating (suspected) terrorists.
Lynch mobs are outlawed for a reason.
Ah, so that was just humiliation! I was not aware that that was what they were actually doing with the dogs and electric wires.
Some of those prisoners were not militants, just random civilians. Turned in by thier neighbors for a quick buck, is what happened.
Even I, who think the Palestinian leadership is full of shit and has been full of shit since before 1948, and think that using meat shields to protect military assets is the war crime, and that the civilian deaths that are occurring in the destruction of said tunnels are the foreseeable consequences of the aforementioned war crime, WILDLY AND ADAMANTLY DISAGREE WITH YOU. What my government did in Gitmo, The fact that there was a prison at all at Gitmo, is a shitstain on American honor. What these individuals in the IDF are doing, or are allowing fucking nut bag whacko settlers to do, is a shit stain on the reputation of Israel.
Didn't say it wasn't.
I said there's a difference between that and torturing random civilians for kicks.
All pow's are protected under the conventions...
That's why they created the "enemy combatant" nonsense, so they could "legally" torture people.
would this be after we decided that every male over the age of 12 was an enemy combatant regardless of their actions?
If you've got a picture of a twelve year old in Abu Ghraib, feel free to share.
Or don't, because, you know.
Or the torture in Abu Ghraib prison. But don't worry, the perpetrators got severely punished by being dishonorably discharged from the US Army. Then two of them married each other.
Edit: Looks like you are already referring to the Abu Ghraib tortures.
I'm unfamiliar with that event but what does two of them getting married have to do with anything? Seems a very strange thing to include.
Tongue-in-cheek to illustrate the absurdity of the situation. They permanently damaged others' lives and went on without repercussions other than a slap on the wrist.
Ah okay, thanks for the clarification
And apparently they each found a soulmate that also enjoys torturing people, which is nice for them I guess.
Wow, I really thought "this guy just didn't look hard enough, they're there".
Uh, spoilers: I did not find them.
These are the good guys. You know, the ones that don't want violence and only want to be safe from external threats.
That’s sadism.
Yep. It's just about finding someone and hurting them because you're afraid and angry.
Where does that over-stated theory that hatred and violence are rooted in fear even come from? I hear it every time violent incidents happen, but I have yet to see any evidence that you need to fear something in order to hate it.
Its more a lack of understanding, ergo a lack of empathy.
Sometimes they are (if you had a cat or a dog, you know), though definitely not always, but it's also the opposite order - first people feel impunity and do bad things to others, and then they fear justice and hate the victim because of that fear.
That makes sense, thanks.
Fear of death, endemic to human consciousness. Also, Star Wars.
Israel needs therapy.
With everything that's been happening in the world as of late, we all need therapy.
Betterhelp sponsored them, but its also kinda shit so maybe thats why the soldiers are so fucked up
“That’s cool and all but do you condemn Hamas though?”
/s
I believe none of the people that committed the terror attack of 10/7 are in the West Bank.
Even if hundreds were there, maybe they should work with the PLO to get rid of a theoretical common enemy? Nope, oppression of all Palestinians is the real goal of the IDF. They hate all Palestinian groups because they want all of them gone at some point in the future. If they wanted any sort of peace or coexistence, they would be bankrolling Palestinians who oppose Hamas, but they don't, so they don't. Those evil fucks willingly endanger their own citizens by empowering reactionary fuckheads like Hamas. It's awful.
How can Hamas do this
They can't, too busy actually murdering and planning on their next murder operation using the UN funds.
Yes, but they aren't doing this in addition to that like Israel is. Pretty bad when the good guys are as bad or worse than Hamas.
You sure about that? Breaking limbs and beheading hostages is better in your book than this?
Israel over the last 20 years has slaughtered so many Gazans it makes the recent Hamas attacks kind of look puny. Neither one of them is justified. And yes I'm sure this is just basic verifiable facts that everyone who's been paying attention knows.
Why did you switch your argument from "Israel is worse because they are not only killing but also humiliating Palestinians when compared to hamas who only kill" to "Israel has killed more Palestinians than got Israeli people killed"? It's only natural to have Israel less casualties because Israel actually tries to protect its citizens before and during attacks, when compared to Palestine.
I literally didn't change my argument. I think you're reading comprehension is failing.
I got no problem with Israel trying to protect their citizens. What I do have a problem with. Is them running an open air genocide camp. Giving people little option but to host or tolerate Hamas. And killing indiscriminately. Israel could be doing things differently. Should be doing things differently. But people like yourself don't care and we'll defend them to the death. Refusing to give them any valid critique.
How for example?
By "them" you surely mean Israel. What if I tell you the same about hamas? They said they will not stop their attacks until they destroy Israel, that's about 9 million lifes. I give a valid critique to this: fuck them, it's valid for any country to intervene and try to stop hamas. Would be great of they could educate Palestinians properly after that, but removing such a threat is a priority.
Gee, I wonder how you get rid of an extremist resistance organization built out of the hatred of a people that has been subject to horrific apartheid conditions for their entire lives. Maybe undermining that hatred by treating palestinians like human beings is worth a shot? Or we can go ahead and keep killing their families, I'm sure that'll get rid of hamas.
Can you explain at least in a few sentences what do you mean by "been subject to horrific apartheid conditions for their entire lives"? It's not like Palestinians live underground and get bombed every day. What exactly makes their lifes a hell that you mention and how do you see it. Be specific, provide examples (it's okay if they are not sourced, but they have to explain the picture at least).
Most gazans have been restricted to the gaza strip under a blockade for as long as they can remember. They've been unable to import certain foods and materials for their entire lives (even pasta wasn't allowed until more recently). Sometimes, hamas or pij launches a few rockets, and maybe they kill or injure a few people if any. Israel responds by bombing the shit out of Gaza, destroying homes and killing families. When they try to peacefully protest, hundreds of them, including children medics and journalists, are killed by snipers, and tens of thousands are injured.
"58% of Gaza Strip residents required humanitarian assistance with 29% of Gazan households living in extreme or catastrophic conditions, the top two tiers of severity, against 10% in 2022."
In the west bank, Palestinians are forced out of their homes. They aren't allowed to use certain roads. They regulary are abused and killed by settlers (who aren't supposed to be there under international law), and the idf backs the settlers up. It's apartheid according to international organizations.
If I was in those conditions, and my friends or family were killed by settlers or an airstrike, I would probably want to join hamas/pij/PFLP too.
Is it so bad to be able to live on the land you were born at? Or do you go "I can't be a tourist so I have to kill Israeli"?
"If I can't eat certain food it's justified to kill Israeli"?
Thanks to Israel's defenses.
Thanks to hamas launching rockets from civillians objects. And thanks to Gaza's (absense of) defenses. Go on, blame Israel for the fact that certain people build rockets and launch them from certain places, instead of building defenses.
Those "peaceful protests" more than likely included people using slingshots. Do not fuck with an army, especially if it's an army of a different country.
It almost looks like they could spend those humanitarian funds on improving their households. But not after they use enough to build tons of rockets, naturally.
How does this work? There was a house where you lived, then someone comes and tells you "this is no longer your house"? Or "even if we never created a proper country, we always thought these were out territories, and then someone came and developed stuff of them, and we got sad and angry"?
Roads that are crucial to be able to live properly? I don't suggest to stay still while you get restricted. But you gotta think what can be done about it, instead of doing terrorism. Especially when the world shows signs of caring about you. For many years too.
You would probably want to join people who practice launching missiles from other families' places so they get killed, and do the same. That's not smart.
Why is American media not showing any of this? Reading or watching US news is like being in a parallel universe.
Israel is really good at misinformation, disinformation, information warfare and controlled narratives.
Isn't misinformation and disinformation the same thing?
Almost. Disinformation is lying, while misinformation can be whaddaboutisms and/or a blackout of the inconvenient truths. Misinformation can include true facts, but use outliers as proof to their veracity. Misinformation can also include disinformation, but play semantics to minimize the controversies of labeling lies as the lies that they are.
Hamas continues to send missiles and hiding in areas barred from being attacked by military attacks from the rules of warfare. IDF says that they will not hold back on their counter-attacks, that the Palestinians were warned.
I see Russia attack Ukraine with the same terrorist targeting of civilian casualties as Hamas and Israel. My fear is that this is how warfare will be fought until enough carnage is inflicted that all sides see the consequences of breaking rules of engagement.
Morally, both sides (IDF and Hamas) have been bad for decades.
I thought about posting this to the community. Should I? It breaks my heart that we are collectively letting this happen.
absolutely should. The heinous aspect of a truth should actually highlight the importance of it being common knowledge. It is in ignoring and burying it to avoid discomfort that helps enable repeating that which led to it.
Are there media outlets in other countries, other than Israel, running articles like this? It would be interesting to know what you're comparing it to.
Al Jazeera has good reporting usually. YouTube tells me they have questionable funding, I haven't followed up on it.
Their funding is questionable but their coverage of the region is really good. They also cover a ton of topics in SE Asia that are only really touched upon otherwise by the BBC.
Israel has specifically threatened the families of Al Jazeera's Palestinian team. That tells me all I need to know.
"The IDF has investigated ourselves, and we have found we have done nothing wrong."
You have everyday Israelis posting racist tiktoks making fun of Palestinian deaths, it was a given that if you take those same civilians and give them guns the abusive behavior would just get worse.
From the article...
Not saying that the IDF is right on this one, at all, but all armies have aholes in them who do crap like this.
So they quick way out of reserve service is to just film yourself committing war crimes? That seems like a reward not a punishment. They should be in prison, not at home
I wasn't speaking towards that.
I was calling someone out for falsely quoting something that wasn't said.
This is the issue of apartheid. Apartheid doesn't mean the government is evil, but it protects evil people when they do evil things.
When you have two populations with unequal rights, there's going to be some assholes who are going to exploit that. That's just human nature
It's also a feature of fascism. The police didn't do anything to stop brown shirts from burning down Jewish businesses.
Sorry but how does that not make the government "evil"? Protecting or causing evil, same outcome in the end.
Well, the International Court of Justice will thankfully take any piece of evidence for war crimes.
Only brown and Muslim people and communists are capable of war crimes. westerners bring freedom and liberal democracy and civilization, those are love filled bombs, they bring with them the love of Jesus Christ , yes they might kill you now, but will save you later.
You should add that little clarification that brown and Muslim people mysteriously stop being capable of war crimes when they are Turk fascists.
You give people unchecked power over other people, and it will be abused. Occupying armies, prisons, police, clergy, you name it.
We just aren't nice monkeys. So power has to be transparent and accountable.
Vote Matrix/SkyNet 2024!
I'm not sure that I agree with their population policies though.
Whatever you do, do not riot for bread in Bakersfield.
If you do the Running Man will chase you down.
At the end of the article they point out that they don't know how many of the reported casualties on the Palestinian side are Hamas fighters, but at the same time don't do the same with the Israelian casualties, and I believe around 300 were IDF soldiers.
Apart from that I think at least they are reasonable and also seem to be critical to their government's handling of the crisis.
And it is saddening what is happening in the West bank with the silent approval of authorities and army, that's called oppression and racism and isn't a good start for a much needed peaceful process.
There are no Hamas on the West bank I'm told. They are restricted to Gaza and that's why it was an open air prison. These are just Palestinians that live and work there, but are not connected to Gaza.
Besides that, they moved all the real soldiers and reservists to the frontline and allowed among others, settlers to do the policing in the region with maybe 1 IDF person in charge when shit happens. I truly believe that's the reason why we're seeing this. It's assholes driving around, looking for Palestinians torturing and killing them. Afterwards it's always in self defense.
Humanity is lost
Not if we band together and force the others to change, or cut them off so their actions can no longer influence reality or discourse.
Just hold your cats, dogs or children if you have them, close, bury your face in their bellies and take a deep breath...it really helps.
That's... creepy as fuck but we like the sentiment, I guess?
Guys, is it creepy to express affection?!
Well, you're close I guess. It's called genocide.
and we are funding it.
War brings out the worst in people.
What do you mean war, the west bank is not controlled by hamas.
This is brutalisation by an occupying force on a population living in an Israeli controlled Bantustan.
Occupation is war. Apartheid is war. Oppression is a war on the oppressed.