The whole point of the tradgedy of the commons is that publically owned finite resources don't work. You've completely misunderstood the point. If you're following that logic then centralization, ownership, and control is the only answer.
Of course none of that applies, because what is the finite resource here? Both Meta and the fediverse can co-exist without destroying each other for want of servers or network bandwidth. The only real finite resource here is human attention - in which case federating with meta should be a good thing. This is because it increases the amount of content available on both platforms with the less popular platform benefiting the most.
Christ.
They do not aim to coexist. They aim to enclose.
This is incredible levels of naivity. Like, literally completely and totally oblivious to how profit seeking works and what behaviours it creates.
And the tragedy of the commons was a crock of shit made by racist eugenicist colonial-minded fuckbags, that's the entire point of teaching it, as a way of understanding the kind of utter bullshit that gets spread when landgrabbers(in the modern day the corporations) want to go grabbing. This is why education is important, without it people go reading a wiki article and come to these kinds of nonsensical conclusions.
I didn't read an article about it, I watched a YouTube video about it from a science and maths youtuber originally. You also didn't elude to this in your first comment at all. I was actually going to reply to you telling you why it's a bad concept once I learned it's history.
I also don't get why your complaining to me about education. I don't control what gets taught in the UK (my home country), I just work with what I have.
I still don't see how it applies to this situation in any way.
Edit: also your username has Lenin in it. Are you a fucking tankie?
Also since this is going to be political and we both live in the same country (I moderate /r/greenandpleasant), did you vote Corbyn or are you a tory?
I also don’t get why your complaining to me about education. I don’t control what gets taught in the UK (my home country), I just work with what I have.
Tankie is anyone that supports Lenin or anything more authoritarian marxist than that.
I didn't vote for Corbyn, because I wasn't old enough to vote at the time. (Was there even a general election at that time? I don't remember). It's a stupid question to ask given he hasn't been the leader of the labour party for years at this point.
I have never voted conservative. I think I voted green in the last election I voted in but don't remember. Didn't get to vote in the last local one as I was busy and forgot.
I never did history GCSE and I don't think most people did. You have to choose between that and other options like Geography so not everyone will be taught it.
Are you against the Durham miners gala? Where they march with communist banners and have done so for 137 years?
You have spent too much time in american anti-communist spaces where their brains are riddled with the historical legacy of two red scares, and you've spent absolutely zero time in British leftist spaces. You have riddled your mind with american brainworms against socialism and I implore you to join a union and actually go out and organise.
u have spent too much time in american anti-communist spaces where their brains are riddled with the historical legacy of two red scares, and you've spent absolutely zero time in British leftist spaces. You have riddled your mind with american brainworms against socialism and I implore you to join a union and actually go out and organise.
Hahahahahahahaha
Why on earth would you just assume something like that? That's completely ridiculous.
I actually became disillusioned from MLs partly by joining a Trotskyist organisation founded in England. Specifically Socialist Appeal which are part of the IMT.
Note I originally said I dislike Lenin and people who came after that (mao, stalin, trotsky, etc.). This is because I have seen what they do to other Communists they disagree with, and what China still does to real Marxists and Anarchists. Lookup Kronstadt if you want an example.
MLs only care about their specific subset of Marixst ideology and if you disagree you are imprisoned or killed. That's not communism, that's a cult!
I would hope that people like Jeremy Corbin are just mislead on the behavior of some of these people, and aren't up for a authoritarian "socialist" regime. Not that he is really relevant anymore anyway as I stated previously.
As for Marx I actually think he said some intelligent things for his time. That being said like his descendants he is too sectarian. I also think anarchists have some interesting ideas. That being said they all died long ago. I don't think it's healthy or progressive to hang on their every word as absolute truth - that's called religion. Religion should have no place in politics.
I actually became disillusioned from MLs partly by joining a Trotskyist organisation founded in England. Specifically Socialist Appeal which are part of the IMT.
The jokers that don't actually do any organising at all and do nothing but show up to everyone else's events, put up their branding to make it look like they're involved and sell papers? Those ones? The ones literally everyone in the UK left hates because they contribute absolutely fucking nothing while larping and piggybacking on actual organising others do?
Not surprised then.
Kinda bizarre for you to be a trot and hate Lenin though. Trots love Lenin. Trotskyism isn't anti-authority either, in fact Trotsky's book literally says he would have done everything the Soviet Union did do. Have you actually read any Trotsky?
they all died long ago
What? Anarchism is very alive in the UK they just don't participate electorally.
MLs only care about their specific subset of Marixst ideology and if you disagree you are imprisoned or killed. That’s not communism, that’s a cult!
Uhh.. You realise it was Trotsky that wiped out the anarchists in the Kronstady Rebellion right?
A lot of this sounds a lot like you're making stuff up, only half know certain details, and are generally winging it through this conversation. It's ok to say you don't know something.
You didn't actually answer my question about the demsocs above. Are they all tankies to you?
You've completely misinterpreted half of what I said. I am not a Trotskyist! I left that group because it was all bullshit.
That's why I am against Leninists.
I never said Anarchists died long ago. I am trying to say people like Marx, Krapotkin, and Bakunin died long ago.
You didn't actually answer my question about the demsocs above. Are they all tankies to you?
Some of them aren't relevant and the other half I have never heard of. So I am not gonna render and option there.
Right so you're right wing, a liberal and an anti-socialist then. Got it. I wish we'd gotten to this point 10 messages ago it would have wasted a lot less time.
What? I hate the right wing! The fuck is wrong with you?
I want socialism, I just don't support Leninists. I also think we need new ideas in the left wing rather than relying on people that died a 100 years ago. Reading Marx or Krapotkin is great but we can't just rely on them, we need to accept that they are limited by the time they lived in. Plus who actually likes reading old English?
I actually like the idea of market socialism and workplace democracy. It's the closest thing to a real economic model for socialism I have seen. I believe anarcho-syndicalism is similar to this but I am not really sure, my understanding of anarchism is fairly limited.
You really need to stop assuming that anyone who isn't an ML is a right wing person. I also don't get why you jump to random conclusions and misinterpret everything I say. It's like you want me to fit in one of several boxes in your head because it's easier to deal with that than actually talk to a real person.
You really need to stop assuming that anyone who isn’t an ML is a right wing person. I also don’t get why you jump to random conclusions and misinterpret everything I say. It’s like you want me to fit in one of several boxes in your head because it’s easier to deal with that than actually talk to a real person.
I didn't. I very clearly laid out a bunch of lukewarm socdems who hold positions you would call them tankies for and go about your usual wrecker shit.
Your views on what socialism actually is are a mess, you have winged it through half the conversation because you barely understand the basic theory, and you very obviously don't understand what the difference is between several of these groups.
I also think we need new ideas in the left wing rather than relying on people that died a 100 years ago. Reading Marx or Krapotkin is great but we can’t just rely on them, we need to accept that they are limited by the time they lived in. Plus who actually likes reading old English?
"Gravity is an old theory and we should accept that it is just something Newton came up with nearly 400 years ago and move on from it." Clown shit.
I think anyone who supports Stalin and Stalinism is an idiot at best. If you don't agree with me I really don't know what to tell you. I can understand Jeremy Corbin saying that comparing him to hitler is unnecessary as they aren't on the same level. Saying someone isn't as bad as Hitler isn't the same as saying you support them.
Okay what do you think socialism is?
As far as I am concerned it's where the workers control the means of production. If the government controls the means of production that government needs to be controlled by the people or else it isn't socialism!
That's why the USSR under Stalin can barley be called socialist, because Stalin had an outsized influence on the government. He could get you killed for disagreement with him.
"Gravity is an old theory and we should accept that it is just something Newton came up with nearly 400 years ago and move on from it." Clown shit.
You're really gonna argue physics with me?
Newton had great ideas, just like Marx had great ideas. Newton's equations though have largely been replaced by Einstein and his theory of relativity. It gives more precise understanding of the way forces and gravity work than Newton could dream of. Likewise Einstein was wrong about quantum physics and things like the behavior of light.
In a science we don't just sit on our laurels and blindly repeat past scientists. We constantly test, refine, improve, or reject old ideas.
We should be treating Marx like we treat Newton or Einstein. Had some great ideas, some are still true, some are close but need further refinement, some are just straight up wrong. That's the difference between an academic and a religious person.
Hardin, the author of the Tragedy of the Commons was also a White Supremacist who was horrible enough to earn his own entry at the SPLC.
Normally, it's genetic fallacy to criticize the source of an argument. But here, the "Tragedy" has been used to justify not honoring treaties, theft of land and resources, polluting indigenous lands, and even genocide.
There is an unspoken bigotry in the argument that deserves recognizing it as racist.
The whole point of the tradgedy of the commons is that publically owned finite resources don't work. You've completely misunderstood the point. If you're following that logic then centralization, ownership, and control is the only answer.
Of course none of that applies, because what is the finite resource here? Both Meta and the fediverse can co-exist without destroying each other for want of servers or network bandwidth. The only real finite resource here is human attention - in which case federating with meta should be a good thing. This is because it increases the amount of content available on both platforms with the less popular platform benefiting the most.
Christ.
They do not aim to coexist. They aim to enclose.
This is incredible levels of naivity. Like, literally completely and totally oblivious to how profit seeking works and what behaviours it creates.
And the tragedy of the commons was a crock of shit made by racist eugenicist colonial-minded fuckbags, that's the entire point of teaching it, as a way of understanding the kind of utter bullshit that gets spread when landgrabbers(in the modern day the corporations) want to go grabbing. This is why education is important, without it people go reading a wiki article and come to these kinds of nonsensical conclusions.
I didn't read an article about it, I watched a YouTube video about it from a science and maths youtuber originally. You also didn't elude to this in your first comment at all. I was actually going to reply to you telling you why it's a bad concept once I learned it's history.
I also don't get why your complaining to me about education. I don't control what gets taught in the UK (my home country), I just work with what I have.
I still don't see how it applies to this situation in any way.
Edit: also your username has Lenin in it. Are you a fucking tankie?
Define tankie for me? It's somewhat lost all meaning given that the Ukrainian government is calling the US government tankies now. This is a serious question for the record, I can't really say whether I am your definition of tankie or not without knowing it given that the definition seems to change for everyone.
Also since this is going to be political and we both live in the same country (I moderate /r/greenandpleasant), did you vote Corbyn or are you a tory?
Enclosure of the commons is 100% taught in the UK at GCSE level as part of the curriculum: https://www.tutor2u.net/history/reference/enclosure-elizabethan-england
Tankie is anyone that supports Lenin or anything more authoritarian marxist than that.
I didn't vote for Corbyn, because I wasn't old enough to vote at the time. (Was there even a general election at that time? I don't remember). It's a stupid question to ask given he hasn't been the leader of the labour party for years at this point.
I have never voted conservative. I think I voted green in the last election I voted in but don't remember. Didn't get to vote in the last local one as I was busy and forgot.
I never did history GCSE and I don't think most people did. You have to choose between that and other options like Geography so not everyone will be taught it.
So are you against the RMT railroad strikes because Mick Lynch publicly calls James Connolly his political hero and is an obvious marxist-leninist ?
Are you against Jeremy Corbyn, because he defends the Soviet Union and always has, and because he also promotes the Black Panthers who defended north korea (if you look in the corner of the video around 2:00 there's even a cute little soviet cccp statue).
Are you against Diane Abbott, because she's publicly defended Mao on national television.
Are you against John Mcdonnell who has said his job is to overthrow capitalism on the BBC, probably because he's quoted Mao and read his little red book in parliament?
Are you against the Durham miners gala? Where they march with communist banners and have done so for 137 years?
You have spent too much time in american anti-communist spaces where their brains are riddled with the historical legacy of two red scares, and you've spent absolutely zero time in British leftist spaces. You have riddled your mind with american brainworms against socialism and I implore you to join a union and actually go out and organise.
Hahahahahahahaha
Why on earth would you just assume something like that? That's completely ridiculous.
I actually became disillusioned from MLs partly by joining a Trotskyist organisation founded in England. Specifically Socialist Appeal which are part of the IMT.
Note I originally said I dislike Lenin and people who came after that (mao, stalin, trotsky, etc.). This is because I have seen what they do to other Communists they disagree with, and what China still does to real Marxists and Anarchists. Lookup Kronstadt if you want an example.
MLs only care about their specific subset of Marixst ideology and if you disagree you are imprisoned or killed. That's not communism, that's a cult!
I would hope that people like Jeremy Corbin are just mislead on the behavior of some of these people, and aren't up for a authoritarian "socialist" regime. Not that he is really relevant anymore anyway as I stated previously.
As for Marx I actually think he said some intelligent things for his time. That being said like his descendants he is too sectarian. I also think anarchists have some interesting ideas. That being said they all died long ago. I don't think it's healthy or progressive to hang on their every word as absolute truth - that's called religion. Religion should have no place in politics.
The jokers that don't actually do any organising at all and do nothing but show up to everyone else's events, put up their branding to make it look like they're involved and sell papers? Those ones? The ones literally everyone in the UK left hates because they contribute absolutely fucking nothing while larping and piggybacking on actual organising others do?
Not surprised then.
Kinda bizarre for you to be a trot and hate Lenin though. Trots love Lenin. Trotskyism isn't anti-authority either, in fact Trotsky's book literally says he would have done everything the Soviet Union did do. Have you actually read any Trotsky?
What? Anarchism is very alive in the UK they just don't participate electorally.
Uhh.. You realise it was Trotsky that wiped out the anarchists in the Kronstady Rebellion right?
A lot of this sounds a lot like you're making stuff up, only half know certain details, and are generally winging it through this conversation. It's ok to say you don't know something.
You didn't actually answer my question about the demsocs above. Are they all tankies to you?
You've completely misinterpreted half of what I said. I am not a Trotskyist! I left that group because it was all bullshit.
That's why I am against Leninists.
I never said Anarchists died long ago. I am trying to say people like Marx, Krapotkin, and Bakunin died long ago.
Some of them aren't relevant and the other half I have never heard of. So I am not gonna render and option there.
Right so you're right wing, a liberal and an anti-socialist then. Got it. I wish we'd gotten to this point 10 messages ago it would have wasted a lot less time.
What? I hate the right wing! The fuck is wrong with you?
I want socialism, I just don't support Leninists. I also think we need new ideas in the left wing rather than relying on people that died a 100 years ago. Reading Marx or Krapotkin is great but we can't just rely on them, we need to accept that they are limited by the time they lived in. Plus who actually likes reading old English?
I actually like the idea of market socialism and workplace democracy. It's the closest thing to a real economic model for socialism I have seen. I believe anarcho-syndicalism is similar to this but I am not really sure, my understanding of anarchism is fairly limited.
You really need to stop assuming that anyone who isn't an ML is a right wing person. I also don't get why you jump to random conclusions and misinterpret everything I say. It's like you want me to fit in one of several boxes in your head because it's easier to deal with that than actually talk to a real person.
I didn't. I very clearly laid out a bunch of lukewarm socdems who hold positions you would call them tankies for and go about your usual wrecker shit.
Your views on what socialism actually is are a mess, you have winged it through half the conversation because you barely understand the basic theory, and you very obviously don't understand what the difference is between several of these groups.
"Gravity is an old theory and we should accept that it is just something Newton came up with nearly 400 years ago and move on from it." Clown shit.
I think anyone who supports Stalin and Stalinism is an idiot at best. If you don't agree with me I really don't know what to tell you. I can understand Jeremy Corbin saying that comparing him to hitler is unnecessary as they aren't on the same level. Saying someone isn't as bad as Hitler isn't the same as saying you support them.
Okay what do you think socialism is?
As far as I am concerned it's where the workers control the means of production. If the government controls the means of production that government needs to be controlled by the people or else it isn't socialism!
That's why the USSR under Stalin can barley be called socialist, because Stalin had an outsized influence on the government. He could get you killed for disagreement with him.
You're really gonna argue physics with me?
Newton had great ideas, just like Marx had great ideas. Newton's equations though have largely been replaced by Einstein and his theory of relativity. It gives more precise understanding of the way forces and gravity work than Newton could dream of. Likewise Einstein was wrong about quantum physics and things like the behavior of light.
In a science we don't just sit on our laurels and blindly repeat past scientists. We constantly test, refine, improve, or reject old ideas.
We should be treating Marx like we treat Newton or Einstein. Had some great ideas, some are still true, some are close but need further refinement, some are just straight up wrong. That's the difference between an academic and a religious person.
@areyouevenreal @Lenins2ndCat
The Tragedy of the Commons is a cherry-picked economic fantasy. It is counter to what really happened, and, thus, false evidence for any point.
https://dlc.dlib.indiana.edu/dlc/bitstream/handle/10535/3113/buck\_NoTragedy.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
@areyouevenreal @Lenins2ndCat
Hardin, the author of the Tragedy of the Commons was also a White Supremacist who was horrible enough to earn his own entry at the SPLC.
Normally, it's genetic fallacy to criticize the source of an argument. But here, the "Tragedy" has been used to justify not honoring treaties, theft of land and resources, polluting indigenous lands, and even genocide.
There is an unspoken bigotry in the argument that deserves recognizing it as racist.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/garrett-hardin