Most of the car subscription items don't bother me. Many are like cosmetic skins in game. The car still works well without them. Lets look at Tesla just because they are popular:
Full Self Drive, one-time $20k - No way is this required. Skipped it.
Enhanced Autopilot, one-time $6k - Auto lane change and vehicle summon in a parking lot. Car drives fine without it. Skipped
Acceleration boost, one-time $2k - Without this the car 0-60MPH is 4.2 seconds. That's PLENTY fast for me. Skipped
Premium connectivity, recurring $10/month or $99/year - Gives you a web browser on the dash, photoview satellite images in navigation instead of line drawing, and lets you stream music from Slacker or stream your Netflix movies from the car cell radio. I don't need any of that and have better choices for music. I can stream video from my phone when I'm stopped if I need to.
None of that stuff is required and the usability and features of the car are still really good.
Further, for many of those factory hardware locked features there are one-time aftermarket solutions to enable them from third parties, though I have never had the need or desire for those things.
Honestly it’s sort of the principle of it.
Like the car has it, it’s already cost the manufacturer to install it sure there are ongoing dev costs for some things, but not all.
On top of that many manufacturers are locking the features to the one person.
So for example I pay for heated seats. Then I sell the car, and the new owner has to “buy” heated seats again.
I’m sorry I’m not supporting that bullshit or the manufacturers who are doing this one bit even if I don’t pay for a feature.
On top of that there are issues with servicing and also forced firmware updates.
A friend was late to work the other day because his Tesla was doing an update when he tried to leave, like what happens if someone was trying to rush a partner to a hospital or something and you happen to jump in the car as it’s mid way through an update.
I want to be in control of the things I own and pay for, that’s the whole point of owning something. Car manufacturers these days seem to be under the delusion that they still own our vehicles and we are just the money sacks they are renting them to.
This has been going on for a while, but seem much much worse on the electric cars.
Also frankly the infrastructure isn’t there in many places around the world.
It’s not just waiting to charge the car that’s the issue, it’s waiting for the charger… when each vehicle takes up to 30min-an hour to get a meaningful amount of range back suddenly you need like 10x as many charging stations as you had petrol/diesel pumps.
And while this may be in place in some places in the world it’s not in most. Add this to the fact that charging points are often out of order well you start to see the issue.
Honestly it’s sort of the principle of it. Like the car has it, it’s already cost the manufacturer to install it sure there are ongoing dev costs for some things, but not all.
I know this isn't an obvious point, but if you got the car how you wanted it, it would actually cost more for things you may not care about. The complaint then would be "why is the car so expensive? Why don't they sell a more basic version?"
When a manufacture has to actually build different cars with different features at time of manufacture it drives up the costs for ALL models. They can't easy substitution when market conditions change and could be stuck with only the premium versions which cost more. A great example of this is the Ford Lightning. There were as many as 12 different model/trim levels. One of the primary complaints of prospective buyers is only the premium priced versions were on dealership lots. This is what you get.
The car is cheaper with the addons disabled. If forced to sell with all addons enabled, the car would be much more expensive for things may people don't care about.
So for example I pay for heated seats. Then I sell the car, and the new owner has to “buy” heated seats again.
I'm not understanding your argument here. If we're talking Tesla, and you bought the $2k Acceleration Boost, if you sold the car to someone, that $2k feature would still be there. Who is removing paid enabled addons? Can you cite an example?
On top of that there are issues with servicing and also forced firmware updates.
Besides NTSB recall firmware updates, a you can make a Tesla not force a firmware update. It may nag though.
This isn't something new though, its just the delivery. About 18 years ago, there was a Honda firmware that I DID NOT WANT INSTALLED. I had to take the Honda 2003 car to a Honda dealer for warranty work, and SPECIFICALLY TOLD THEM NOT TO INSTALL THAT FIRMWARE. They did anyway. So this is nothing new to EVs or even modern cars.
A friend was late to work the other day because his Tesla was doing an update when he tried to leave, like what happens if someone was trying to rush a partner to a hospital or something and you happen to jump in the car as it’s mid way through an update.
Your friend may not have told you the whole story.
A Tesla firmware will prompt you when it wants to install. It will tell you "this takes about 25 minutes to complete and the car will be unusable during that time". You can choose to install it immediately by pressing the button when prompted, or set a time for it to wake the car and install it. Even if you accidentally say "install now" it gives you a 2 minute countdown on screen to cancel it. So your buddy either scheduled it to install 30 min before he was supposed to go to work, or he hit the button to install it, waited for the entire 2 minute cancellation period to expire and did nothing.
It’s not just waiting to charge the car that’s the issue, it’s waiting for the charger… when each vehicle takes up to 30min-an hour to get a meaningful amount of range back suddenly you need like 10x as many charging stations as you had petrol/diesel pumps.
You're projecting for a problem that likely won't happen in the scale you're describing. Battery tech is evolving fast. Modern batteries can charge in a fraction of time of those even sold 3 years ago. This charging speed of battery as well as faster chargers look to be solving this.
Further, 80% of EV drivers charge at home. source Nearly 0% of petrol drivers refuel at home, so comparing the two isn't equivalent.
No. The add ons are already installed. The car would not cost the manufacturer any more money. Turning on your pre-installed heated seat does not cost them any money. In fact it would have been cheaper to not install a blocking mechanism.
So now we have to pay for all this equipment on the car that we don't want or need. We have to pay for their subscription mechanism that's already in the car as well. And then if we did want to use a feature, we'd have to pay that subscription to turn it on.
That's the definition of rent seeking behavior. They haven't added any actual value for that second payment. They merely blocked you from using part of what you already bought until you paid them an arbitrary amount.
No. The add ons are already installed. The car would not cost the manufacturer any more money. Turning on your pre-installed heated seat does not cost them any money. In fact it would have been cheaper to not install a blocking mechanism.
Except those add ons wouldn't be in the car if the OP got their way. If "its installed already turn it on for free" was the action, then manufacturers wouldn't put those addons in. They'd have to create separate versions of the cars with, say, seat heaters and not instead. That doesn't save you, the consumer, money. It makes it *more expensive for you because they now have to have separate production line options, inventory management, logistics, etc.
So now we have to pay for all this equipment on the car that we don’t want or need.
Except you're NOT paying for it. Its in there, but the manufacturer REDUCED THE CAR COST TO YOU by disabling it.
We have to pay for their subscription mechanism that’s already in the car as well. And then if we did want to use a feature, we’d have to pay that subscription to turn it on.
I've seen third party workaround options for paid seat heaters. So no, you wouldn't have to pay a subscription if you used those.
I'm sorry has the cost of a car gone down at any point? No? Then it's not cheaper is it? It might be cheaper to make, but then if that's true we're paying for installed items plus an extra monopoly premium.
Which is called rent seeking behavior.
I’m sorry has the cost of a car gone down at any point?
This is a bad faith statement. You're not an idiot and you're well aware that thousands of different inputs raise or lower the overall price of a car including basic things like inflationary actions which have nothing to do with the components of the car, but result in prices increases of the car.
I could probably find an equally bad faith statement indeed showing the car being cheaper because of the prior increases in 2020 during the pandemic shortage, but I'm not going to find a misleading statement to back that up just to score "points". Its not honest, and I"m not willing to do that.
If this is the level of conversation that we're now at, I think we've reach the end of it being productive.
Have a nice day.
Oh no, I'll give you inflation. But the "real" cost of an average new car hasn't ever gone down. So if they're making them for lower costs and charging DLC for them...
You missed the biggest flaw in all those arguments: "yet".
None of that stuff is required... yet. It will. As soon as the subscription model catches on, it will be required.
Just look at: everywhere. How far did video streaming go from cable? Well, it's not there... yet. But it's going there.
Don't think for a second this time will be different.
You missed the biggest flaw in all those arguments: “yet”.
I'm not going to have "slippery slope" arguments today. If they do those things you're claiming they will then, I'll argue with you (perhaps on your side) if they do.
How is that a slippery slope when we see how every other industries handled the same thing in the same way?
Because there's nothing to discuss besides wild speculation. If they're going to do "something" what is that "something"? Nobody knows because its a future undefined event. We CAN objectively discuss what exists today.
We know exactly what that something is. It is putting features that have been in cars for a long time (distance start or heating seats for example) behind a subscription. Some car manufacturers already tried that (BMW in 2022). There is no slippery slope here, it's already happening.
"The first approach has been to go to specialized companies that, for a one-time fee, will unlock the software-locked features. According to Slashgear, the U.K. tuner Litchfield Motors can unlock the features for under $50. It can also unlock the ability to show content on screens while the vehicle is moving. Slightly illegal, don’t you think?"
You, the buyer, benefit because BMW lowered the price of the car expecting to get seat heating for years. The person that lives exclusively in warm climate and will never use seat heating benefits because of the lower priced car.
Croquette
Doesn't change the fact that is is already happening as per the original poster of this comment chain. It is not because you can circumvent it that it is not a trend that we see in the industry. And what about when this is no longer possible? Then what is the option?
It is a lot easier to not open the pandora box than to try to close it.
I am pretty sure that regardless of the subscription or not, it is less expensive to produce one model and lock the options and sell them, than fitting each option separately. But this is me talking out my ass.
Doesn’t change the fact that is is already happening as per the original poster of this comment chain.
I addressed that in my very first comment in the chain, so this isn't new nor did I ignore it.
It is not because you can circumvent it that it is not a trend that we see in the industry. And what about when this is no longer possible? Then what is the option?
I am pretty sure that regardless of the subscription or not, it is less expensive to produce one model and lock the options and sell them, than fitting each option separately. But this is me talking out my ass.
I'm confused by you saying this, because this is the primary point I've been trying to make the entire thread. Did you miss a word negating your statement when wrote it or are you in agreement with me?
Honestly the biggest issue here is there's only one thing in that list I'd consider a subscription and that's the data connectivity. Especially in a Tesla where there's no option to have Android auto or apple carplay then the only ways you can stream audio would be through Bluetooth so no options to change anything other than skip and replay the songs in a playlist. I don't particularly mind there being a one time cost for most of those features even though they're ridiculously expensive but the worst of it is on Ford, GM and Stalantis.
Those 3 manufacturers (and maybe more? I'm not sure) have subscriptions for their self driving functions which are included in the car and already paid for. These functions are processed on the car so this is nothing more than a digital lock to features that are already included in the car price.
Especially in a Tesla where there’s no option to have Android auto or apple carplay then the only ways you can stream audio would be through Bluetooth so no options to change anything other than skip and replay the songs in a playlist.
You can use your phone as a hotspot if you subscribe to Tidal or Spotify without any Tesla connectivity. You can also subscribe to SiriusXM and not have any Tesla connectivity.
Can tell you're in your 20s.
Your detector needs calibration then.
Irrespective of that, may I ask you to address the message instead of the messenger? What part of what I posted do you disagree with? I'm open to discussion and interested in your opinions if we can be civil with one another.
Just so you know, you can do Spotify and Tidal now with premium connectivity, too. Tidal is basically the only reason I have it, because the speakers are good enough for the sound quality difference to be noticeable. I agree with the rest of your points, though.
You could still use Spotify, Tidal, and Netflix on the Tesla screen/speakers without premium connectivity if you use your phone as a hotspot. The car will automatically try to attach to any wifi AP its aware of. You could enable it each time you get in the car or if you want it automatic you'd just need a trigger on your phone to enable hotspot when you get in. Perhaps an NFC tag in the cell phone tray?
So even with those you don't need to pay for a Tesla subscription.
Yeah but one of the reasons to pay for Tidal is the sound quality, and bluetooth sounds objectively worse than streaming directly on the car. Also, how am I supposed to maintain a wifi connection while moving? I'm not about to tether my phone every time I get in the car.
I'm not suggesting bluetooth. I'm talking tethering.
I’m not about to tether my phone every time I get in the car.
If its automatic, what is your objection to enabling tethering when you get in the car?
I mean wifi tethering. Sure, I could set up Tasker to turn it on once it detects that I'm in the car, but I'd personally rather save myself the effort.
The alternative is paying monthly for a data connection in the car. I'd prefer not to do that, but thats simply my preference.
Most of the car subscription items don't bother me. Many are like cosmetic skins in game. The car still works well without them. Lets look at Tesla just because they are popular:
None of that stuff is required and the usability and features of the car are still really good.
Further, for many of those factory hardware locked features there are one-time aftermarket solutions to enable them from third parties, though I have never had the need or desire for those things.
Honestly it’s sort of the principle of it.
Like the car has it, it’s already cost the manufacturer to install it sure there are ongoing dev costs for some things, but not all.
On top of that many manufacturers are locking the features to the one person.
So for example I pay for heated seats. Then I sell the car, and the new owner has to “buy” heated seats again.
I’m sorry I’m not supporting that bullshit or the manufacturers who are doing this one bit even if I don’t pay for a feature.
On top of that there are issues with servicing and also forced firmware updates.
A friend was late to work the other day because his Tesla was doing an update when he tried to leave, like what happens if someone was trying to rush a partner to a hospital or something and you happen to jump in the car as it’s mid way through an update.
I want to be in control of the things I own and pay for, that’s the whole point of owning something. Car manufacturers these days seem to be under the delusion that they still own our vehicles and we are just the money sacks they are renting them to.
This has been going on for a while, but seem much much worse on the electric cars.
Also frankly the infrastructure isn’t there in many places around the world.
It’s not just waiting to charge the car that’s the issue, it’s waiting for the charger… when each vehicle takes up to 30min-an hour to get a meaningful amount of range back suddenly you need like 10x as many charging stations as you had petrol/diesel pumps.
And while this may be in place in some places in the world it’s not in most. Add this to the fact that charging points are often out of order well you start to see the issue.
I know this isn't an obvious point, but if you got the car how you wanted it, it would actually cost more for things you may not care about. The complaint then would be "why is the car so expensive? Why don't they sell a more basic version?"
When a manufacture has to actually build different cars with different features at time of manufacture it drives up the costs for ALL models. They can't easy substitution when market conditions change and could be stuck with only the premium versions which cost more. A great example of this is the Ford Lightning. There were as many as 12 different model/trim levels. One of the primary complaints of prospective buyers is only the premium priced versions were on dealership lots. This is what you get.
The car is cheaper with the addons disabled. If forced to sell with all addons enabled, the car would be much more expensive for things may people don't care about.
I'm not understanding your argument here. If we're talking Tesla, and you bought the $2k Acceleration Boost, if you sold the car to someone, that $2k feature would still be there. Who is removing paid enabled addons? Can you cite an example?
Besides NTSB recall firmware updates, a you can make a Tesla not force a firmware update. It may nag though.
This isn't something new though, its just the delivery. About 18 years ago, there was a Honda firmware that I DID NOT WANT INSTALLED. I had to take the Honda 2003 car to a Honda dealer for warranty work, and SPECIFICALLY TOLD THEM NOT TO INSTALL THAT FIRMWARE. They did anyway. So this is nothing new to EVs or even modern cars.
Your friend may not have told you the whole story.
A Tesla firmware will prompt you when it wants to install. It will tell you "this takes about 25 minutes to complete and the car will be unusable during that time". You can choose to install it immediately by pressing the button when prompted, or set a time for it to wake the car and install it. Even if you accidentally say "install now" it gives you a 2 minute countdown on screen to cancel it. So your buddy either scheduled it to install 30 min before he was supposed to go to work, or he hit the button to install it, waited for the entire 2 minute cancellation period to expire and did nothing.
You're projecting for a problem that likely won't happen in the scale you're describing. Battery tech is evolving fast. Modern batteries can charge in a fraction of time of those even sold 3 years ago. This charging speed of battery as well as faster chargers look to be solving this.
Further, 80% of EV drivers charge at home. source Nearly 0% of petrol drivers refuel at home, so comparing the two isn't equivalent.
No. The add ons are already installed. The car would not cost the manufacturer any more money. Turning on your pre-installed heated seat does not cost them any money. In fact it would have been cheaper to not install a blocking mechanism.
So now we have to pay for all this equipment on the car that we don't want or need. We have to pay for their subscription mechanism that's already in the car as well. And then if we did want to use a feature, we'd have to pay that subscription to turn it on.
That's the definition of rent seeking behavior. They haven't added any actual value for that second payment. They merely blocked you from using part of what you already bought until you paid them an arbitrary amount.
Except those add ons wouldn't be in the car if the OP got their way. If "its installed already turn it on for free" was the action, then manufacturers wouldn't put those addons in. They'd have to create separate versions of the cars with, say, seat heaters and not instead. That doesn't save you, the consumer, money. It makes it *more expensive for you because they now have to have separate production line options, inventory management, logistics, etc.
Except you're NOT paying for it. Its in there, but the manufacturer REDUCED THE CAR COST TO YOU by disabling it.
I've seen third party workaround options for paid seat heaters. So no, you wouldn't have to pay a subscription if you used those.
I'm sorry has the cost of a car gone down at any point? No? Then it's not cheaper is it? It might be cheaper to make, but then if that's true we're paying for installed items plus an extra monopoly premium.
Which is called rent seeking behavior.
This is a bad faith statement. You're not an idiot and you're well aware that thousands of different inputs raise or lower the overall price of a car including basic things like inflationary actions which have nothing to do with the components of the car, but result in prices increases of the car.
I could probably find an equally bad faith statement indeed showing the car being cheaper because of the prior increases in 2020 during the pandemic shortage, but I'm not going to find a misleading statement to back that up just to score "points". Its not honest, and I"m not willing to do that.
If this is the level of conversation that we're now at, I think we've reach the end of it being productive.
Have a nice day.
Oh no, I'll give you inflation. But the "real" cost of an average new car hasn't ever gone down. So if they're making them for lower costs and charging DLC for them...
You missed the biggest flaw in all those arguments: "yet".
None of that stuff is required... yet. It will. As soon as the subscription model catches on, it will be required.
Just look at: everywhere. How far did video streaming go from cable? Well, it's not there... yet. But it's going there.
Don't think for a second this time will be different.
I'm not going to have "slippery slope" arguments today. If they do those things you're claiming they will then, I'll argue with you (perhaps on your side) if they do.
How is that a slippery slope when we see how every other industries handled the same thing in the same way?
Because there's nothing to discuss besides wild speculation. If they're going to do "something" what is that "something"? Nobody knows because its a future undefined event. We CAN objectively discuss what exists today.
We know exactly what that something is. It is putting features that have been in cars for a long time (distance start or heating seats for example) behind a subscription. Some car manufacturers already tried that (BMW in 2022). There is no slippery slope here, it's already happening.
First, thank you for giving a specific example. For this example, you can pay a third party $50 for a one-time unlock and not have a BMW subscription.
"The first approach has been to go to specialized companies that, for a one-time fee, will unlock the software-locked features. According to Slashgear, the U.K. tuner Litchfield Motors can unlock the features for under $50. It can also unlock the ability to show content on screens while the vehicle is moving. Slightly illegal, don’t you think?"
You, the buyer, benefit because BMW lowered the price of the car expecting to get seat heating for years. The person that lives exclusively in warm climate and will never use seat heating benefits because of the lower priced car.
Doesn't change the fact that is is already happening as per the original poster of this comment chain. It is not because you can circumvent it that it is not a trend that we see in the industry. And what about when this is no longer possible? Then what is the option?
It is a lot easier to not open the pandora box than to try to close it.
I am pretty sure that regardless of the subscription or not, it is less expensive to produce one model and lock the options and sell them, than fitting each option separately. But this is me talking out my ass.
I addressed that in my very first comment in the chain, so this isn't new nor did I ignore it.
Third party seat heaters have been available longer than first party seat heaters. So at worst, rip out the BMW seat heaters and add third party seat heaters.
I'm confused by you saying this, because this is the primary point I've been trying to make the entire thread. Did you miss a word negating your statement when wrote it or are you in agreement with me?
Honestly the biggest issue here is there's only one thing in that list I'd consider a subscription and that's the data connectivity. Especially in a Tesla where there's no option to have Android auto or apple carplay then the only ways you can stream audio would be through Bluetooth so no options to change anything other than skip and replay the songs in a playlist. I don't particularly mind there being a one time cost for most of those features even though they're ridiculously expensive but the worst of it is on Ford, GM and Stalantis.
Those 3 manufacturers (and maybe more? I'm not sure) have subscriptions for their self driving functions which are included in the car and already paid for. These functions are processed on the car so this is nothing more than a digital lock to features that are already included in the car price.
You can use your phone as a hotspot if you subscribe to Tidal or Spotify without any Tesla connectivity. You can also subscribe to SiriusXM and not have any Tesla connectivity.
Can tell you're in your 20s.
Your detector needs calibration then.
Irrespective of that, may I ask you to address the message instead of the messenger? What part of what I posted do you disagree with? I'm open to discussion and interested in your opinions if we can be civil with one another.
Just so you know, you can do Spotify and Tidal now with premium connectivity, too. Tidal is basically the only reason I have it, because the speakers are good enough for the sound quality difference to be noticeable. I agree with the rest of your points, though.
You could still use Spotify, Tidal, and Netflix on the Tesla screen/speakers without premium connectivity if you use your phone as a hotspot. The car will automatically try to attach to any wifi AP its aware of. You could enable it each time you get in the car or if you want it automatic you'd just need a trigger on your phone to enable hotspot when you get in. Perhaps an NFC tag in the cell phone tray?
So even with those you don't need to pay for a Tesla subscription.
Yeah but one of the reasons to pay for Tidal is the sound quality, and bluetooth sounds objectively worse than streaming directly on the car. Also, how am I supposed to maintain a wifi connection while moving? I'm not about to tether my phone every time I get in the car.
I'm not suggesting bluetooth. I'm talking tethering.
If its automatic, what is your objection to enabling tethering when you get in the car?
I mean wifi tethering. Sure, I could set up Tasker to turn it on once it detects that I'm in the car, but I'd personally rather save myself the effort.
The alternative is paying monthly for a data connection in the car. I'd prefer not to do that, but thats simply my preference.