You don't understand. I did not deluded myself to anything. I abandoned a system that's working against so many people.
The question is not for the left whether to support liberals or fascists. The question is for liberals whether to support socialism or fascism. It's the people in power who get to choose. And liberals are in power for so many decades that they have no excuse for the shit we're in now.
The system is broken, fucked, dysfunction, shitty, and unacceptable. That doesn't change the fact that it's better than openly genocidal fascism. I might die under Democrats; I will die under Republicans.
We inherently lack freedom of choice on most things. You don't choose the class of your parents. You don't choose your gender, sex, attraction, neurotypicality, ethnicity, race, culture, or access to learning as a child. You have to play the cards you're given.
In a purely descriptive sense, Republican control will result in every bad thing that would happen under Democrats, plus all the promises they're making about LGBTQ genocide, absurd deregulation, removal of every social program, invading Mexico, targeted prosecution of political threats, and mandatory fascist propaganda in schools. Those are just some of consequences id Republicans win.
The cost of the 2nd amendment is thousands of deaths from guns every year that wouldn't have happened without it. 2nd amendment advocates constantly ignore that consequence. If you try to show it to them, they mentally cannot perceive it. They ignore the costs and live in the delusion that they get a free lunch. A lot of conservative logic hinges on ignoring "externalities," that they don't personally have to deal with. They love talking about basic economics, but their supposed worldview cannot accept it.
Even the cynical conservatives are often living a delusion. They recognize the direct pain they cause to poor people, but they fail to recognize the long term cost of their behavior. Encouraging global fascism has the adorable effect of increasing the risk of global conflict. Just as most liberals ignored the fascism that capitalism leads to, fascists ignore the serious war that nationalism leads to.
Modern war between nations cannot be won by the participants. Liberals aren't much better on this front, nor are many socialists for that matter. The reality is that we need deescalation or everyone might lose. We don't just need to not accelerate, we need to slam on the breaks. The odds are stacked against success, but fueling the fire is joining the global death cult that fascists and liberals are unwittingly leading.
In short, you're thinking small like humans are designed to do. Humans are dangerous, so not trying to exploit them isn't just morally right, but prudent.
I'm not fueling any fire. It's already burning, and voting for liberals is what fuels the fire.
You're talking about US politics. Isn't the situation dire already? Republican already are indirectly supporting Russian war, fomenting civil war, and destroying people rights. Are you telling me that media are overstating all of this? That the situation is fine actually and it can go like this for many more years yet?
How did it got better with Biden in 3 and a half year?
It would have been worst is always the predicament of the liberals. Everything else is worse. There is no alternative. But it's a dead end. And we're on the wall already.
Supporting the liberals is fighting those who want to make a better world. It's supporting fascism.
And to get back to the subject : not voting is a right, and it is the only vote that doesn't support fascism.
You can choose to commit suicide. It is an option. That doesn't mean you should take it.
So you're actually the desperate one if you think that not voting this election is committing suicide.
Yes. I am desperate to live. That's a virtue, not a vice.
At the end of the day, you just have an inaccurate view of reality. You're motivated by anger to think prolonging liberalism isn't worth it because it's a shit worldview that should be destroyed. I agree that it sucks and should be replaced, but I recognize that empowering fascism has no real upside. It doesn't matter what liberalism "deserves," as blame is only useful in guiding us to real justice. Mechanically, what is the best strategy for minimizing harm and maximizing well being?
The liberals are empowering fascism. Which is the problem you seem blind to.
But as always liberals will never be accountable for their faults, and when fascism rise they blame it on the left. Exactly as you're doing.
I asked someone on here if they'd punch a nazi, really disappointing response. Feel like this guy would say it's wrong too
You just can't accept the possibility that I agree about liberals & liberalism empowering fascism. You talk about blame and accountability, assuming those concepts are anything but instrumental in accomplishing real justice.
Real justice is making things as good as you can in the future, & being just is the practice of trying your best to do so with the information you have. Punishment for punishment's sake is a fools errand.
I don't give a flying fuck about making liberals suffer. I want what's best for me and others. Not voting won't make things better than if I vote Dem, the same as I did in 2020. That's the bottom line.
You're not making things better. You're trying for things to not be too much worse.
When the choices are both bad, I don't want to be an accomplice to any of them. I don't want to validate any of them. Because they're both bad. There just happen to be one worse than the other. But it'll happen eventually anyway regardless of your choice in this election.
You're not making things better. You're trying for things to not be too much worse.
You say this like it isn't my point. You're not invalidating shit. It can easily be argued that not voting makes you the accomplice of whoever wins the election. You chose not to vote, so you're fine with whoever wins. If Biden wins, you're responsible. If Trump wins, you're responsible. You could have weighted in on how much worse things should get, but I guess it's up to liberals and fascists.
You cannot get off the boat. You have to deal with it as much as everyone else. Not voting will not make you or other leftists better off, especially because there is no good plan or strategy on how to prepare for this mythical 2nd round. Like I said, death cult larper shit.
That cannot be argued. Because that would make it a parody of democracy like China or Russia.
Either you can not vote for either candidate, or your democracy is not worth more than those parodies of it.
That would make it a parody of democracy like China or Russia.
If I lived in China or Russia, I would still vote if I could. I'd have to avoid psyop candidates for my own safety, but I'd definitely exert what little will I had to pick the lesser evils.
Why? Even with those shit elections, the are some issues on the ballot. I couldn't choose any anti authoritarian candidates, but I could vote for someone who'd be better on more contested issues. Maybe I could choose a candidate that follows science more, or is less aggressive about invading Taiwan. That last one is a big deal, as war is way worse than most people think. It's honestly hard to have net gains out of wars for the ones fighting.
In local elections, you can build up support for a slightly better narrative; a narrative that won't directly question the state, but make it suck less. States suck, but you HAVE to exist in them until they actually collapse. You can undermine them, but only if you have a plan. That strategy must be thought out, organized, and prepared for, just like how the theocratic fascists have done it. They built to the movement that exists now, convincing Christians to abandon liberalism in any form. They did this by WINNING elections, not by boycotting them.
If anything, it could be argued that a collapse of liberalism under Biden would be better for revolutionaries than a fascist takeover that eventually collapses. That fascist state will crush all leftist organizing in ways that liberals wouldn't even think of. They will force all Marxist discussions underground and do frequent raids of the tunnels. That doesn't sound like breeding ground for leftism to me.
If a liberal state collapses, people will be unenthusiastic about liberalism. If a fascist state that used to be liberal collapses, liberals can more easily argue that we need to return to liberalism. The only way your perspective makes sense is if you assume liberalism can't collapse without turning to fascism. I doubt that's backed up by history. Liberal states might turn authoritarian in their final moments, but that isn't really like the populist fascism of Trump.
Liberals are already fighting leftists. With more subtle ways than fascists are doing, but they are fighting hard.
In France the liberals spent months to convince people that the left was more dangerous than the fascists. They are litteraly fighting the left with the police. Forbidding protests and breaking them with heavy police forces. They are cooperating with the fascists, making laws with them against immigration and workers.
Basically the liberals are turning fascist light in order to fight the left. It's the most violent, the most radical Liberal government the Vth Republic had. Some conservative are also talking about giving the president a third run eventhough that's forbidden by the constitution.
The liberals don't fight fascism. They never did and they will never do it. They ally with them when they feel threatened. They join them when they feel there's an opportunity to do it.
It's been 40 years of this game in France. Liberals pretend to be left. When in power, they betray and do hard liberalism instead. And they blame all the problems on a lack of liberalism, and on immigration. Exactly like the fascists. So naturally people go to the far right.
What's left is two nuances of fascism.
The left is fighting still though. The fight is to be done on the left first sadly, because so many people are trying to win the race, believing that the liberals in power are not so bad in the meantime.
I'd rather have a fascist leader so that the liberals may wake up while the State is still robust enough to not turn this into a disaster. Because the longer we wait, the more the liberals will dismantle everything. And when there's no barrier, no counterpower, and they already started political repression, then the fascists will only have to do the same, but better.
Maybe that's why you're so scared btw. Maybe your country already lost too many of its defenses against fascism. If it is the case, you're doomed. It's already too late. You're fighting to save a sinking ship.
I'm not gonna vote in your country, but I will do everything I can for mine to not turn into a sinking ship. And it means not supporting the people who are actively sabotaging it.
You don't understand. I did not deluded myself to anything. I abandoned a system that's working against so many people.
The question is not for the left whether to support liberals or fascists. The question is for liberals whether to support socialism or fascism. It's the people in power who get to choose. And liberals are in power for so many decades that they have no excuse for the shit we're in now.
The system is broken, fucked, dysfunction, shitty, and unacceptable. That doesn't change the fact that it's better than openly genocidal fascism. I might die under Democrats; I will die under Republicans.
We inherently lack freedom of choice on most things. You don't choose the class of your parents. You don't choose your gender, sex, attraction, neurotypicality, ethnicity, race, culture, or access to learning as a child. You have to play the cards you're given.
In a purely descriptive sense, Republican control will result in every bad thing that would happen under Democrats, plus all the promises they're making about LGBTQ genocide, absurd deregulation, removal of every social program, invading Mexico, targeted prosecution of political threats, and mandatory fascist propaganda in schools. Those are just some of consequences id Republicans win.
The cost of the 2nd amendment is thousands of deaths from guns every year that wouldn't have happened without it. 2nd amendment advocates constantly ignore that consequence. If you try to show it to them, they mentally cannot perceive it. They ignore the costs and live in the delusion that they get a free lunch. A lot of conservative logic hinges on ignoring "externalities," that they don't personally have to deal with. They love talking about basic economics, but their supposed worldview cannot accept it.
Even the cynical conservatives are often living a delusion. They recognize the direct pain they cause to poor people, but they fail to recognize the long term cost of their behavior. Encouraging global fascism has the adorable effect of increasing the risk of global conflict. Just as most liberals ignored the fascism that capitalism leads to, fascists ignore the serious war that nationalism leads to.
Modern war between nations cannot be won by the participants. Liberals aren't much better on this front, nor are many socialists for that matter. The reality is that we need deescalation or everyone might lose. We don't just need to not accelerate, we need to slam on the breaks. The odds are stacked against success, but fueling the fire is joining the global death cult that fascists and liberals are unwittingly leading.
In short, you're thinking small like humans are designed to do. Humans are dangerous, so not trying to exploit them isn't just morally right, but prudent.
I'm not fueling any fire. It's already burning, and voting for liberals is what fuels the fire.
You're talking about US politics. Isn't the situation dire already? Republican already are indirectly supporting Russian war, fomenting civil war, and destroying people rights. Are you telling me that media are overstating all of this? That the situation is fine actually and it can go like this for many more years yet?
How did it got better with Biden in 3 and a half year?
It would have been worst is always the predicament of the liberals. Everything else is worse. There is no alternative. But it's a dead end. And we're on the wall already.
Supporting the liberals is fighting those who want to make a better world. It's supporting fascism.
And to get back to the subject : not voting is a right, and it is the only vote that doesn't support fascism.
You can choose to commit suicide. It is an option. That doesn't mean you should take it.
So you're actually the desperate one if you think that not voting this election is committing suicide.
Yes. I am desperate to live. That's a virtue, not a vice.
At the end of the day, you just have an inaccurate view of reality. You're motivated by anger to think prolonging liberalism isn't worth it because it's a shit worldview that should be destroyed. I agree that it sucks and should be replaced, but I recognize that empowering fascism has no real upside. It doesn't matter what liberalism "deserves," as blame is only useful in guiding us to real justice. Mechanically, what is the best strategy for minimizing harm and maximizing well being?
The liberals are empowering fascism. Which is the problem you seem blind to.
But as always liberals will never be accountable for their faults, and when fascism rise they blame it on the left. Exactly as you're doing.
I asked someone on here if they'd punch a nazi, really disappointing response. Feel like this guy would say it's wrong too
You just can't accept the possibility that I agree about liberals & liberalism empowering fascism. You talk about blame and accountability, assuming those concepts are anything but instrumental in accomplishing real justice.
Real justice is making things as good as you can in the future, & being just is the practice of trying your best to do so with the information you have. Punishment for punishment's sake is a fools errand.
I don't give a flying fuck about making liberals suffer. I want what's best for me and others. Not voting won't make things better than if I vote Dem, the same as I did in 2020. That's the bottom line.
You're not making things better. You're trying for things to not be too much worse.
When the choices are both bad, I don't want to be an accomplice to any of them. I don't want to validate any of them. Because they're both bad. There just happen to be one worse than the other. But it'll happen eventually anyway regardless of your choice in this election.
You say this like it isn't my point. You're not invalidating shit. It can easily be argued that not voting makes you the accomplice of whoever wins the election. You chose not to vote, so you're fine with whoever wins. If Biden wins, you're responsible. If Trump wins, you're responsible. You could have weighted in on how much worse things should get, but I guess it's up to liberals and fascists.
You cannot get off the boat. You have to deal with it as much as everyone else. Not voting will not make you or other leftists better off, especially because there is no good plan or strategy on how to prepare for this mythical 2nd round. Like I said, death cult larper shit.
That cannot be argued. Because that would make it a parody of democracy like China or Russia.
Either you can not vote for either candidate, or your democracy is not worth more than those parodies of it.
If I lived in China or Russia, I would still vote if I could. I'd have to avoid psyop candidates for my own safety, but I'd definitely exert what little will I had to pick the lesser evils.
Why? Even with those shit elections, the are some issues on the ballot. I couldn't choose any anti authoritarian candidates, but I could vote for someone who'd be better on more contested issues. Maybe I could choose a candidate that follows science more, or is less aggressive about invading Taiwan. That last one is a big deal, as war is way worse than most people think. It's honestly hard to have net gains out of wars for the ones fighting.
In local elections, you can build up support for a slightly better narrative; a narrative that won't directly question the state, but make it suck less. States suck, but you HAVE to exist in them until they actually collapse. You can undermine them, but only if you have a plan. That strategy must be thought out, organized, and prepared for, just like how the theocratic fascists have done it. They built to the movement that exists now, convincing Christians to abandon liberalism in any form. They did this by WINNING elections, not by boycotting them.
If anything, it could be argued that a collapse of liberalism under Biden would be better for revolutionaries than a fascist takeover that eventually collapses. That fascist state will crush all leftist organizing in ways that liberals wouldn't even think of. They will force all Marxist discussions underground and do frequent raids of the tunnels. That doesn't sound like breeding ground for leftism to me.
If a liberal state collapses, people will be unenthusiastic about liberalism. If a fascist state that used to be liberal collapses, liberals can more easily argue that we need to return to liberalism. The only way your perspective makes sense is if you assume liberalism can't collapse without turning to fascism. I doubt that's backed up by history. Liberal states might turn authoritarian in their final moments, but that isn't really like the populist fascism of Trump.
Liberals are already fighting leftists. With more subtle ways than fascists are doing, but they are fighting hard.
In France the liberals spent months to convince people that the left was more dangerous than the fascists. They are litteraly fighting the left with the police. Forbidding protests and breaking them with heavy police forces. They are cooperating with the fascists, making laws with them against immigration and workers.
Basically the liberals are turning fascist light in order to fight the left. It's the most violent, the most radical Liberal government the Vth Republic had. Some conservative are also talking about giving the president a third run eventhough that's forbidden by the constitution.
The liberals don't fight fascism. They never did and they will never do it. They ally with them when they feel threatened. They join them when they feel there's an opportunity to do it.
It's been 40 years of this game in France. Liberals pretend to be left. When in power, they betray and do hard liberalism instead. And they blame all the problems on a lack of liberalism, and on immigration. Exactly like the fascists. So naturally people go to the far right.
What's left is two nuances of fascism.
The left is fighting still though. The fight is to be done on the left first sadly, because so many people are trying to win the race, believing that the liberals in power are not so bad in the meantime.
I'd rather have a fascist leader so that the liberals may wake up while the State is still robust enough to not turn this into a disaster. Because the longer we wait, the more the liberals will dismantle everything. And when there's no barrier, no counterpower, and they already started political repression, then the fascists will only have to do the same, but better.
Maybe that's why you're so scared btw. Maybe your country already lost too many of its defenses against fascism. If it is the case, you're doomed. It's already too late. You're fighting to save a sinking ship.
I'm not gonna vote in your country, but I will do everything I can for mine to not turn into a sinking ship. And it means not supporting the people who are actively sabotaging it.