Damn. No one cares that it's wildly irresponsible to give a 24 year old with no experience a job of this magnitude and responsibility?
Mega corp and ultra rich actor found a patsy...
I don't think it's a patsy when the person who was criminally negligent is held accountable.
Baldwin was also criminally negligent, in several different ways.
First he failed to clear the firearm, second he hired and employed an armorer who was unqualified…. And apparently an alcoholic who was also absent.
He'll stand trial, so we'll certainly see if he's criminally negligent or not.
You mean, we’ll see if a rich, famous white guy whose acting skills are well known can convince a jury he’s really sorry and didn’t know…. And it’s really really not his fault!
His guilt is already there, and I suspect it’s weighing on him heavily. The presumption of innocence is merely an assumption that informs procedural rules preserving Baldwin’s (or any accuse’d) rights and civil liberties.
A man who is guilty of a crime is not innocent then suddenly guilty when a jury finds them so- they’ve always been guilty, and would remain guilty even if they were acquitted. Similarly, an innocent man could be found guilty while being innocent. Such a person doesn’t become guilty just because 12 people made a mistake.
With that rant out of the way….
It’s effectively self evident he was handling a loaded firearm in an unsafe manner resulting in the death of one and severe injury of another.
There are a lot of things that could have prevented this tragedy, personal actions he could take:
as a producer, hiring a competent armor and support staff. He did not.
also as a producer, responded to correct the safety concerns that were reported to him.
adequately reviewing on- and off-set safety protocol.
he could have inspected the pistol himself. It’s not hard, takes thirty seconds. A trained monkey could do it. He did not
alternatively, if you want to be truly idiot-resistant, firing into a bullet catcher (a steel box with… stuff… inside to capture any rounds that do go off.) he did not.
not using a a functional fire arm.
not hanging crew and actors down range when he was posing.
not pulling the fucking trigger.
And that’s just off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s more.
None of these things were beyond his capabilities as the actor, nevermind the producer. All of them should be familiar.
None of those things are particularly difficult to accommodate. None of them are “unreasonable.”
It's kinda funny seeing someone use bullet points about my industry while simultaneously not knowing what the the fuck they're talking about. And basic law too lmao.
Your industry? Film?
It’s kinda funny some one saying I’m wrong then doesn’t explain in even cursory detail how I’m wrong.
Are you really saying that someone dying from getting shot because a person didn’t handle a firearm in a safe manner, isn’t invul. Manslaughter?
Are you saying that because “you’re” “industry” says it’s okay to handle a firearm in a negligent manner, the laws do not apply?
Sorry, but “an expert telling you it’s okay” doesn’t absolve you of one’s legal responsibility to behave in a reasonable and safe manner.
There were multiple producers, evidence will determine the shared responsibility of each of them
She’s the daughter of a famous armorer / sharp shooter. She was raised around that stuff and should’ve known better.
Being raised around firearms doesn’t qualify you to be an armorer. Neither does her parent being one.
What would is if they apprenticed her, or if she had any actual professional experience.
Just because someone has professional experience doesn't mean they are actually good at the job. There are keeners who are committed to learning the craft who outdo a lot of negligent old timers after about a month or two. A lot of it just comes down to personality. I tend to be given the task of training green Dressers in my department and I see a gamut of personality and aptitudes. There are a lot of people who very much coast on being somebody's friend or relative because they don't need aptitude to get or keep their jobs.
The reality of the situation is that you are way more likely to get hired because either someone likes to have you around because you are already friends or because people like your laid back (generally) rule agnostic personality than based on merit and strict commitment to safe conduct. Doing things properly every single time is often disensentivized as people find people who stick to their guns regarding proper procedures to be too uptight and people who want to coast are literally made uncomfortable when one person is obviously killing it due to constant application of effort because it brings their attention to their own slack they could be picking up. Actually being a force of nature who can do the work of half a crew yourself is actually kind of a gamble in film because on the one hand it makes it possible for more people to slack but on the other is adds to the personal discomfort of the people who are guaranteed to have the ear of the boss.
So, I don’t know about inside theater, but whenever Anyone bit he’s about the OCD protocols/procedures and what not when it comes to our armed guards (which I’m the guy who manages and partially trains them), I send them a few hypotheticals I asked corporate’s actuaries to draft up.
The costs associated with a supposed guard shooting an individually… justifiably, then wrongfully, then themselves.
The expenses and risks are insane. And that’s just the monetary costs. I assume Baldwin is human and therefore pretty fucked up by this, not to mention the grief and pain of Hutchin’s friends and family. Reed, too.
It might be annoying and tedious, but those safety protocols exist for a reason. And while i undo understand it’s not common, anybody handling that weapon needs to be able to clear it safely- and should be trained to do so; because even the best and most competent and OCD armorer is human, and humans make mistakes.
Had a viceral reaction to you calling film/television "theater" that I needed to parse for a second... I have worked the industry over a decade onset and off and I know the utter bullshit Producers pull when they think nobody is looking. Everything about this Production I have heard sounds like shit I worked in the past before I had the security to work Union gigs.
These gigs are generally hackneyed with grandiose dreams where Production chooses people who won't rock the boat and safety falls completely by the wayside. They just want their shoot day and so they pick folk with cowboy mentality that make industry folk wince at knowing how often they are risking their skins.
In Union world armourers have not just guns but anything that even looks like a gun under lock and key. Doesn't matter if it's made of rubber you treat every replica and actual functioning weapon as though it is real. Only armourers and actors touch them. All actors who are given anything gun like must have them in their person or give them back to the armourer. Every actual weapon is handed off only to people who have been briefed on the rules. During the hand off the armourer checks the barrel and load to make sure there is no obstruction and the correct type of blank or dummies. This is done in front of the actor and only once complete and if there's nothing in can a weapon be described as "cold". Then before filming begins the size of the load is mentioned to the crew as a precaution to protect people's hearing. The process isn't actually all that hard it just requires dedication to do it properly every single time. Armourers tend to be gun enthusiasts anyway so the actual technical aspects of the craft are generally already well known by the first day on set it's just learning the process.
So when you hear this weapon was left on a cart, picked up by a non-props department member who handed it over and called "cold gun" and handed over blind to a seasoned actor... Naw mate I don't care how much everybody feels bad about this. People need a smack in the jaw to remember that this is a dangerous industry and you do not cut corners when it comes to safety.
I might be a bit tinfoily here, but since you mention union armorers, wasn’t Hutchins flacking for the union strike over - in large part- firearms safety protocol? I seem to recall several social media posts advocating for solidarity and such.
In any case, having the armorer check the gun like that seems “reasonable” and is likely very effective. My issue with it, is that armorers are people too, and they make mistakes- doesn’t matter how good they are; it’s part of being human. Redundancy is very important when the consequences of a mistake is death.
If there’s a single point of failure, a single mistake can have tragic consequences.
That's the thing. This wasn't one mistake on behalf of the armourer. This was a crew lousy with massive safety violations. For this to go wrong she had to fuck up three points in a row.
Using live rounds in a film weapon, not clearing and checking the chamber afterwards an instead of locking it up as she was supposed to have done leaving it unattended on a cart. For the other half of the equation you have Baldwin accepting it from a source who was not authorized to handle it, not waiting for a full check and accepting the call of cold weapon from an unauthorized person.
Six points of failure.
But then consider this :
A few days before Baldwin's stunt double fired two live shots and a total of three accidental discharges. TWO live rounds were fired and yet this didn't cause Production to bat an eye...
Camera crew walked the week before because gun safety was a fraught issue and the Production Manager did fucking NOTHING about it.
Production fucked with the crew hotel stays so their crew lost sleep which is how a lot of people in my local have gotten fucked up. When your standard day is 12-15 hours sleeping 5 hours a night doesn't cut it. You make bad calls and are more prone to slip ups.
Yeah, armourers are people who make mistakes. The most common one is missing the last clearing check before handoff ( which actors are also on the hook for and are supposed to insist on if it gets forgotten in the hectic rush) but when you start seeing mistakes that are not just small reasonable mistakes but massive violations of protocol adding up... The word isn't "mistakes" it's negligence. When someone gets hurt and dies that's criminal negligence.
It's admirable wanting to forgive people on their worst day but I have seen too many working conditions where these "mistakes" are made and someone who was just trying to do their job gets life-changingly hurt and you know what? The person who caused that to happen doesn't change.The industry doesn't change. The abuses of power in our industry is aggregious at times and a lot of the way things are structured are to mitigate consequences for the people at the top and their relatives.
What drives me insane is that people just want to assume the best of the people they feel they know. Lady Gaga gets to be "brave" for throwing a hissy fit and endangering the lives of her music video crews for endangering their lives for a shot. Baldwin plays absolute cowboy on a crew that was bleeding from safety concerns and ends up killing someone. It could have been the stunt double the week before who killed someone but the difference between the stunt double and Baldwin is Baldwin could have DONE something about this fucking firestorm. Producers, even principle actors have the power to make things happen. But this show was lousy with people at the top who didn't fucking care.
We reward the famous all the damn time for playing risky games. We reward producers for making quick dirty unsafe shows and then spinning it like playing with fire was a good thing. We reward nepotism, and cut corners and It has to stop. When your luck runs out all those devils bargains you made should come back to haunt you because it makes people with their head stuck so far up their ass who believe that it could never happen to them actually fucking think.
Are you suggesting Alec Baldwin hired her?
He probably didn't... But he also didn't take the weapon from her on the set. He took it from the 1st AD who had absolutely no fucking business handling that weapon in the first place. To give a parable it would be like if you regularly go bungie jumping and the person who is supposed to check your equipment and buckle you in pre jump isn't around but the parking attendant still wearing his vest shows up gives you a pat down and a thumbs up and says "good to go boss!"
Like if it was your first day on and you somehow got past all the safety layers of people who should give you the full safety spiel... But really? This was not the first nor second rodeo. This was a neon red flashing sign of bad practice.
Damn. No one cares that it's wildly irresponsible to give a 24 year old with no experience a job of this magnitude and responsibility?
Mega corp and ultra rich actor found a patsy...
I don't think it's a patsy when the person who was criminally negligent is held accountable.
Baldwin was also criminally negligent, in several different ways.
First he failed to clear the firearm, second he hired and employed an armorer who was unqualified…. And apparently an alcoholic who was also absent.
He'll stand trial, so we'll certainly see if he's criminally negligent or not.
You mean, we’ll see if a rich, famous white guy whose acting skills are well known can convince a jury he’s really sorry and didn’t know…. And it’s really really not his fault!
His guilt is already there, and I suspect it’s weighing on him heavily. The presumption of innocence is merely an assumption that informs procedural rules preserving Baldwin’s (or any accuse’d) rights and civil liberties.
A man who is guilty of a crime is not innocent then suddenly guilty when a jury finds them so- they’ve always been guilty, and would remain guilty even if they were acquitted. Similarly, an innocent man could be found guilty while being innocent. Such a person doesn’t become guilty just because 12 people made a mistake.
With that rant out of the way….
It’s effectively self evident he was handling a loaded firearm in an unsafe manner resulting in the death of one and severe injury of another.
There are a lot of things that could have prevented this tragedy, personal actions he could take:
And that’s just off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s more.
None of these things were beyond his capabilities as the actor, nevermind the producer. All of them should be familiar.
None of those things are particularly difficult to accommodate. None of them are “unreasonable.”
It's kinda funny seeing someone use bullet points about my industry while simultaneously not knowing what the the fuck they're talking about. And basic law too lmao.
Your industry? Film?
It’s kinda funny some one saying I’m wrong then doesn’t explain in even cursory detail how I’m wrong.
Are you really saying that someone dying from getting shot because a person didn’t handle a firearm in a safe manner, isn’t invul. Manslaughter?
Are you saying that because “you’re” “industry” says it’s okay to handle a firearm in a negligent manner, the laws do not apply?
Edit: here’s the NM law
Sorry, but “an expert telling you it’s okay” doesn’t absolve you of one’s legal responsibility to behave in a reasonable and safe manner.
There were multiple producers, evidence will determine the shared responsibility of each of them
She’s the daughter of a famous armorer / sharp shooter. She was raised around that stuff and should’ve known better.
Being raised around firearms doesn’t qualify you to be an armorer. Neither does her parent being one.
What would is if they apprenticed her, or if she had any actual professional experience.
Just because someone has professional experience doesn't mean they are actually good at the job. There are keeners who are committed to learning the craft who outdo a lot of negligent old timers after about a month or two. A lot of it just comes down to personality. I tend to be given the task of training green Dressers in my department and I see a gamut of personality and aptitudes. There are a lot of people who very much coast on being somebody's friend or relative because they don't need aptitude to get or keep their jobs.
The reality of the situation is that you are way more likely to get hired because either someone likes to have you around because you are already friends or because people like your laid back (generally) rule agnostic personality than based on merit and strict commitment to safe conduct. Doing things properly every single time is often disensentivized as people find people who stick to their guns regarding proper procedures to be too uptight and people who want to coast are literally made uncomfortable when one person is obviously killing it due to constant application of effort because it brings their attention to their own slack they could be picking up. Actually being a force of nature who can do the work of half a crew yourself is actually kind of a gamble in film because on the one hand it makes it possible for more people to slack but on the other is adds to the personal discomfort of the people who are guaranteed to have the ear of the boss.
So, I don’t know about inside theater, but whenever Anyone bit he’s about the OCD protocols/procedures and what not when it comes to our armed guards (which I’m the guy who manages and partially trains them), I send them a few hypotheticals I asked corporate’s actuaries to draft up.
The costs associated with a supposed guard shooting an individually… justifiably, then wrongfully, then themselves.
The expenses and risks are insane. And that’s just the monetary costs. I assume Baldwin is human and therefore pretty fucked up by this, not to mention the grief and pain of Hutchin’s friends and family. Reed, too.
It might be annoying and tedious, but those safety protocols exist for a reason. And while i undo understand it’s not common, anybody handling that weapon needs to be able to clear it safely- and should be trained to do so; because even the best and most competent and OCD armorer is human, and humans make mistakes.
Had a viceral reaction to you calling film/television "theater" that I needed to parse for a second... I have worked the industry over a decade onset and off and I know the utter bullshit Producers pull when they think nobody is looking. Everything about this Production I have heard sounds like shit I worked in the past before I had the security to work Union gigs.
These gigs are generally hackneyed with grandiose dreams where Production chooses people who won't rock the boat and safety falls completely by the wayside. They just want their shoot day and so they pick folk with cowboy mentality that make industry folk wince at knowing how often they are risking their skins.
In Union world armourers have not just guns but anything that even looks like a gun under lock and key. Doesn't matter if it's made of rubber you treat every replica and actual functioning weapon as though it is real. Only armourers and actors touch them. All actors who are given anything gun like must have them in their person or give them back to the armourer. Every actual weapon is handed off only to people who have been briefed on the rules. During the hand off the armourer checks the barrel and load to make sure there is no obstruction and the correct type of blank or dummies. This is done in front of the actor and only once complete and if there's nothing in can a weapon be described as "cold". Then before filming begins the size of the load is mentioned to the crew as a precaution to protect people's hearing. The process isn't actually all that hard it just requires dedication to do it properly every single time. Armourers tend to be gun enthusiasts anyway so the actual technical aspects of the craft are generally already well known by the first day on set it's just learning the process.
So when you hear this weapon was left on a cart, picked up by a non-props department member who handed it over and called "cold gun" and handed over blind to a seasoned actor... Naw mate I don't care how much everybody feels bad about this. People need a smack in the jaw to remember that this is a dangerous industry and you do not cut corners when it comes to safety.
I might be a bit tinfoily here, but since you mention union armorers, wasn’t Hutchins flacking for the union strike over - in large part- firearms safety protocol? I seem to recall several social media posts advocating for solidarity and such.
In any case, having the armorer check the gun like that seems “reasonable” and is likely very effective. My issue with it, is that armorers are people too, and they make mistakes- doesn’t matter how good they are; it’s part of being human. Redundancy is very important when the consequences of a mistake is death.
If there’s a single point of failure, a single mistake can have tragic consequences.
That's the thing. This wasn't one mistake on behalf of the armourer. This was a crew lousy with massive safety violations. For this to go wrong she had to fuck up three points in a row. Using live rounds in a film weapon, not clearing and checking the chamber afterwards an instead of locking it up as she was supposed to have done leaving it unattended on a cart. For the other half of the equation you have Baldwin accepting it from a source who was not authorized to handle it, not waiting for a full check and accepting the call of cold weapon from an unauthorized person.
Six points of failure.
But then consider this :
A few days before Baldwin's stunt double fired two live shots and a total of three accidental discharges. TWO live rounds were fired and yet this didn't cause Production to bat an eye...
Camera crew walked the week before because gun safety was a fraught issue and the Production Manager did fucking NOTHING about it.
Production fucked with the crew hotel stays so their crew lost sleep which is how a lot of people in my local have gotten fucked up. When your standard day is 12-15 hours sleeping 5 hours a night doesn't cut it. You make bad calls and are more prone to slip ups.
Yeah, armourers are people who make mistakes. The most common one is missing the last clearing check before handoff ( which actors are also on the hook for and are supposed to insist on if it gets forgotten in the hectic rush) but when you start seeing mistakes that are not just small reasonable mistakes but massive violations of protocol adding up... The word isn't "mistakes" it's negligence. When someone gets hurt and dies that's criminal negligence.
It's admirable wanting to forgive people on their worst day but I have seen too many working conditions where these "mistakes" are made and someone who was just trying to do their job gets life-changingly hurt and you know what? The person who caused that to happen doesn't change.The industry doesn't change. The abuses of power in our industry is aggregious at times and a lot of the way things are structured are to mitigate consequences for the people at the top and their relatives.
What drives me insane is that people just want to assume the best of the people they feel they know. Lady Gaga gets to be "brave" for throwing a hissy fit and endangering the lives of her music video crews for endangering their lives for a shot. Baldwin plays absolute cowboy on a crew that was bleeding from safety concerns and ends up killing someone. It could have been the stunt double the week before who killed someone but the difference between the stunt double and Baldwin is Baldwin could have DONE something about this fucking firestorm. Producers, even principle actors have the power to make things happen. But this show was lousy with people at the top who didn't fucking care.
We reward the famous all the damn time for playing risky games. We reward producers for making quick dirty unsafe shows and then spinning it like playing with fire was a good thing. We reward nepotism, and cut corners and It has to stop. When your luck runs out all those devils bargains you made should come back to haunt you because it makes people with their head stuck so far up their ass who believe that it could never happen to them actually fucking think.
Are you suggesting Alec Baldwin hired her?
He probably didn't... But he also didn't take the weapon from her on the set. He took it from the 1st AD who had absolutely no fucking business handling that weapon in the first place. To give a parable it would be like if you regularly go bungie jumping and the person who is supposed to check your equipment and buckle you in pre jump isn't around but the parking attendant still wearing his vest shows up gives you a pat down and a thumbs up and says "good to go boss!"
Like if it was your first day on and you somehow got past all the safety layers of people who should give you the full safety spiel... But really? This was not the first nor second rodeo. This was a neon red flashing sign of bad practice.