The women who would be impressed by this probably deserve the men who do it.
This boy is purposefully being misleading about himself - he is presenting a con. We shouldn't be victim blaming.
On the flip side, if the genders were changed in this situation and the guy only wanted the woman because of superficial reasons like she was attractive or popular, how many people would be saying "he got what he deserves"
This is definitely one of those double standard situations. While we shouldn't be victim blaming, I think there's something to be said for calling out people who are willing to throw away an existing relationship or form a new relationship just because an "influencer" came up to them and they thought they were rich. And I think that's what the poster you are responding to was getting at.
I think it's completely fair to have an honest conversation about what could cause someone to be enticed by a large number of followers, but I don't think that OP was making space for that conversation. It came off as victim blaming because there was no attempt at nuance or unpacking the fact that these women were targeted by a conman and that we really shouldn't be blaming them at all.
Honestly, I'm having a hard time not blaming everyone in this.
Seller: scamming wannabe scammers, while actively spreading and promoting toxic ideas.
Buyers (1st level victims): wannabe scammers, trying to scam the final victim.
Victims (2nd level): being so shallow as to fall for a fame scam.
As the saying goes: "you can't scam a honest man person"... but a dishonest one, oh boy, you can scam them over and over and over.
Again, can we please not victim blame? Calling this a failure, saying that they must be "so shallow" to fall for a fame scam is analogous to saying "she was asking for it because of the way she was dressed" to a rape victim. Being a human is complicated and there are many reasons a victim can fall prey to a scam. It's not as one dimensional as you're painting it and regardless of how shallow a person is, no one deserves to be taken advantage of. The focus of discussion here should not be the victim, but rather the perpetrator and the fact that they are out to take advantage of others. That's abhorrent behavior and we should keep the focus squarely on them.
I don't want to blame just the victim, I want to blame everyone, society included.
Also I don't think that someone's behavior choice is comparable to their clothing choice, and I see much more than a single problem in this whole situation. It also isn't any inherent weakness or any sort of coercion that are getting exploited, everyone is free to leave at any moment.
no one deserves to be taken advantage of
Agreed.
The problem is that everyone in this case is trying to take advantage of someone, they just differ in what they want:
one wants money
another wants sex
last one wants clout and money
We can agree that the main instigator is the seller, taking advantage of the others, but that doesn't mean the others are completely innocent; they can't be, or the whole scheme wouldn't be possible in the first place.
(in a sane world, I'd expect the only one to get scammed would be the buyer... but I know that groupies are a real thing)
I think we should ask why each one of them wants what they want, and why are they ready to jump at the opportunity of taking advantage of someone else in order to get it.
Then we could ask what could be done to prevent the whole situation from being possible, at every level.
PS: in some jurisdictions, there is a "funny" situation where lying to get sex is a felony up to certain age... but once it's between "consenting adults", lying to get sex is perfectly fine! 😒 We could also take a look at that, how is it possible to give consent while being lied to.
I don’t think that someone’s behavior choice is comparable to their clothing choice
I completely agree, but victim blaming across choices and especially towards women and POC individuals is part of the reason we have really shitty reporting of fraudsters. Creating an environment which discourages them from speaking up is harmful to society as a whole.
everyone in this case is trying to take advantage of someone
We don't know this, and we shouldn't assume this of the victim. I think it's a reasonable hypothesis, but focusing on talking about the victim here when there are actors which are clearly out to harm or take advantage of others is harmful framing. If this is a discussion you wish to have, I personally believe the appropriate framing is necessary - we must acknowledge the existing structure of power and how it silences certain people and also blames them before talking about potentially problematic behavior. But even then, it's kind of jumping to conclusions about the victim here and I'm not so certain it's a discussion that should even be entertained.
victim blaming across choices and especially towards women and POC individuals
I don't know about the US, here in Spain the love scams, and fame scams, are a thing across all genders and orientations, with low reporting of scams in general being attributed mainly to shame of the victims for having fallen for a scam.
People like to think they're smarter than most other people, and the more sure they are of that, the easier they are to fool. I think it's no wonder they don't want to acknowledge it afterwards.
everyone in this case is trying to take advantage of someone
We don't know this, and we shouldn't assume this of the victim.
I don't see how else it could work... but I'm open to hearing alternatives?
we must acknowledge the existing structure of power and how it silences certain people and also blames them
Fair.
A relevant aspect I can think of, is the part about it being fine to lie to have sex between "consenting" adults. How can there be consent, when one or both parties are misleading the other? Sounds like an officially codified permission to abuse.
I don't get what people see in fame or clout, it looks like lying and argument of authority to me. The fact that anyone would pursue or get influenced by either, seems to me like ingrained predisposition to getting abused (by authority figures). Not sure how much of that is inherent, and how much social.
A clearly perverse incentive in the whole scheme, is money... but that's kind of unavoidable in any money based society.
The elephant in the room, is sex itself: how can it, on one side, make someone pay and lie for it, and on the other side be used as a bargaining chip. Is it a purely hormonal catalyst for the whole scheme, or a proxy for a power play?
Isn't the presumption here that if she is only interested in his money that she also plans to take advantage of him?
We cannot possibly know her intentions. We do know his intentions. Please stop shifting focus away from the person actively causing harm here.
Her intentions were as clear as his in that video as far as I could see.
The women who would be impressed by this probably deserve the men who do it.
This boy is purposefully being misleading about himself - he is presenting a con. We shouldn't be victim blaming.
On the flip side, if the genders were changed in this situation and the guy only wanted the woman because of superficial reasons like she was attractive or popular, how many people would be saying "he got what he deserves"
This is definitely one of those double standard situations. While we shouldn't be victim blaming, I think there's something to be said for calling out people who are willing to throw away an existing relationship or form a new relationship just because an "influencer" came up to them and they thought they were rich. And I think that's what the poster you are responding to was getting at.
I think it's completely fair to have an honest conversation about what could cause someone to be enticed by a large number of followers, but I don't think that OP was making space for that conversation. It came off as victim blaming because there was no attempt at nuance or unpacking the fact that these women were targeted by a conman and that we really shouldn't be blaming them at all.
Honestly, I'm having a hard time not blaming everyone in this.
As the saying goes: "you can't scam a honest
manperson"... but a dishonest one, oh boy, you can scam them over and over and over.Again, can we please not victim blame? Calling this a failure, saying that they must be "so shallow" to fall for a fame scam is analogous to saying "she was asking for it because of the way she was dressed" to a rape victim. Being a human is complicated and there are many reasons a victim can fall prey to a scam. It's not as one dimensional as you're painting it and regardless of how shallow a person is, no one deserves to be taken advantage of. The focus of discussion here should not be the victim, but rather the perpetrator and the fact that they are out to take advantage of others. That's abhorrent behavior and we should keep the focus squarely on them.
I don't want to blame just the victim, I want to blame everyone, society included.
Also I don't think that someone's behavior choice is comparable to their clothing choice, and I see much more than a single problem in this whole situation. It also isn't any inherent weakness or any sort of coercion that are getting exploited, everyone is free to leave at any moment.
Agreed.
The problem is that everyone in this case is trying to take advantage of someone, they just differ in what they want:
We can agree that the main instigator is the seller, taking advantage of the others, but that doesn't mean the others are completely innocent; they can't be, or the whole scheme wouldn't be possible in the first place.
(in a sane world, I'd expect the only one to get scammed would be the buyer... but I know that groupies are a real thing)
I think we should ask why each one of them wants what they want, and why are they ready to jump at the opportunity of taking advantage of someone else in order to get it.
Then we could ask what could be done to prevent the whole situation from being possible, at every level.
PS: in some jurisdictions, there is a "funny" situation where lying to get sex is a felony up to certain age... but once it's between "consenting adults", lying to get sex is perfectly fine! 😒 We could also take a look at that, how is it possible to give consent while being lied to.
I completely agree, but victim blaming across choices and especially towards women and POC individuals is part of the reason we have really shitty reporting of fraudsters. Creating an environment which discourages them from speaking up is harmful to society as a whole.
We don't know this, and we shouldn't assume this of the victim. I think it's a reasonable hypothesis, but focusing on talking about the victim here when there are actors which are clearly out to harm or take advantage of others is harmful framing. If this is a discussion you wish to have, I personally believe the appropriate framing is necessary - we must acknowledge the existing structure of power and how it silences certain people and also blames them before talking about potentially problematic behavior. But even then, it's kind of jumping to conclusions about the victim here and I'm not so certain it's a discussion that should even be entertained.
I don't know about the US, here in Spain the love scams, and fame scams, are a thing across all genders and orientations, with low reporting of scams in general being attributed mainly to shame of the victims for having fallen for a scam.
People like to think they're smarter than most other people, and the more sure they are of that, the easier they are to fool. I think it's no wonder they don't want to acknowledge it afterwards.
I don't see how else it could work... but I'm open to hearing alternatives?
Fair.
A relevant aspect I can think of, is the part about it being fine to lie to have sex between "consenting" adults. How can there be consent, when one or both parties are misleading the other? Sounds like an officially codified permission to abuse.
I don't get what people see in fame or clout, it looks like lying and argument of authority to me. The fact that anyone would pursue or get influenced by either, seems to me like ingrained predisposition to getting abused (by authority figures). Not sure how much of that is inherent, and how much social.
A clearly perverse incentive in the whole scheme, is money... but that's kind of unavoidable in any money based society.
The elephant in the room, is sex itself: how can it, on one side, make someone pay and lie for it, and on the other side be used as a bargaining chip. Is it a purely hormonal catalyst for the whole scheme, or a proxy for a power play?
Isn't the presumption here that if she is only interested in his money that she also plans to take advantage of him?
We cannot possibly know her intentions. We do know his intentions. Please stop shifting focus away from the person actively causing harm here.
Her intentions were as clear as his in that video as far as I could see.