It's not the popularity I take issue with, it's the viability.
To use an abstract example:
Ballot: reduce the reliance on cars for transport.
"Academic": teleporter research.
"Pragmatic/viable": more bus.
Sure, teleporters would be great, but in November of 2024 it's not realistic.
Further, focusing on teleporters may allow the opposite of the goal of the ballot initiative to occur, and an increasing reliance on cars may be brought about by opponents.
To head this off because we've done this before:
I'm aware teleporters aren't real. I'm aware this thread isn't about transit. This is a hypothetical example to discuss the point using a different medium.
Edit To put a point on it: a third party vote does 0% to impact the duopoly. It is irrelevant to the situation, which is actually changed via the topics I mentioned in an earlier comment. It can only distort which of the duo parties succeed.
If we never push for bold change, we’ll be stuck with the same tired solutions that maintain the status quo.
Completely agree.
A presidential ballot is not the place for that though. It's like wishing you had a different airplane, when you're already coming in for landing. You're already committed.
But if we don’t push for bold change now, we’ll never get off the ground in the first place. Settling for what’s already in motion only ensures that the landing strip stays the same, election after election.
The point is to make changes before takeoff, to continue the example.
Grassroots positions. Down ballot posts. Judicial reform. Be planning for elections in the 2030's.
The effort to establish viable 3rd party candidates now, started years ago. It unfortunately failed. Those candidates did not achieve viability in 2024, and therefore don't exist, for practical purposes. To circle back, they especially don't exist if the goal is to keep trump out of office, which I stated was mine.
I can't understand how others don't share that goal, due to his wild, right wing plans that are an order of magnitude worse than harris' positions. Especially for disenfranchised minority groups, not even starting on the basics of governmental integrity.
If 3rd party groups spent their energy deplatforming conservatives then we would all have greater harmony, and third party platforms would find more space for their voice. Instead they make primary enemies with democrats, their nearest neighbors, and then wonder why the DNC and popular democrats shun them at every opportunity.
I agree that building a viable third party should start from the ground up, focusing on grassroots positions and down-ballot posts. However, the reality is that change isn't linear and doesn't always follow a neat timeline. While the efforts to establish viable third-party candidates for 2024 may not have achieved widespread success, it doesn't mean the push for alternatives should be abandoned or ridiculed.
Regarding Trump, I don’t deny the dangers his return poses, particularly to disenfranchised groups. However, this isn't just about Trump; it’s about the systemic issues that allow figures like him to gain power in the first place.
If third-party efforts only focused on deplatforming conservatives, they would risk becoming just another arm of the duopoly, which itself has consistently failed to bring about meaningful change for working people. The real challenge is not just to oppose one party or candidate but to break the cycle that leaves voters feeling trapped between two unsatisfactory choices.
This is incredibly naiive and counterproductive.
Listen to these people.
Listen to these people.
Nah, I won’t be taking advice from those who are desperate to keep the capitalist duopoly in power.
Their insistence on maintaining the status quo only proves how threatened they are by the real change we’re fighting for.
Uh huh.
Glad you agree. Thank you!
Uh huh.
Glad you agree!
You're deeply misrepresenting the position. We're not desperate to keep the duopoly. We're desperate to keep it from collapsing into a dictatorship, and you're over there trying to kick its legs off.
If the system is so fragile that it risks collapsing into a dictatorship, then it's already broken beyond repair. So I refuse to help the duopoly even more.
Nonsense. If you work outside of the system that exists, you won't ever make meaningful change on that system. You'll only ever make it harder for the people who have accepted reality and are working from within the system to change it. You can't do that from the outside short of a full catastrophic collapse, no matter how much noise you make.
The real nonsense is believing that change can only come from within a corrupt and broken system.
History shows us that real progress has often come from those who challenged the system from the outside, refusing to accept the crumbs offered by those in power.
I’m not here to wait for “catastrophic collapse” but to push for the kind of meaningful change that the establishment fears.
If working from within has been so effective, why are we still stuck with the same old problems?
It's not the popularity I take issue with, it's the viability.
To use an abstract example:
Ballot: reduce the reliance on cars for transport.
"Academic": teleporter research.
"Pragmatic/viable": more bus.
Sure, teleporters would be great, but in November of 2024 it's not realistic.
Further, focusing on teleporters may allow the opposite of the goal of the ballot initiative to occur, and an increasing reliance on cars may be brought about by opponents.
To head this off because we've done this before:
I'm aware teleporters aren't real. I'm aware this thread isn't about transit. This is a hypothetical example to discuss the point using a different medium.
Edit To put a point on it: a third party vote does 0% to impact the duopoly. It is irrelevant to the situation, which is actually changed via the topics I mentioned in an earlier comment. It can only distort which of the duo parties succeed.
If we never push for bold change, we’ll be stuck with the same tired solutions that maintain the status quo.
Completely agree.
A presidential ballot is not the place for that though. It's like wishing you had a different airplane, when you're already coming in for landing. You're already committed.
But if we don’t push for bold change now, we’ll never get off the ground in the first place. Settling for what’s already in motion only ensures that the landing strip stays the same, election after election.
The point is to make changes before takeoff, to continue the example.
Grassroots positions. Down ballot posts. Judicial reform. Be planning for elections in the 2030's.
The effort to establish viable 3rd party candidates now, started years ago. It unfortunately failed. Those candidates did not achieve viability in 2024, and therefore don't exist, for practical purposes. To circle back, they especially don't exist if the goal is to keep trump out of office, which I stated was mine.
I can't understand how others don't share that goal, due to his wild, right wing plans that are an order of magnitude worse than harris' positions. Especially for disenfranchised minority groups, not even starting on the basics of governmental integrity.
If 3rd party groups spent their energy deplatforming conservatives then we would all have greater harmony, and third party platforms would find more space for their voice. Instead they make primary enemies with democrats, their nearest neighbors, and then wonder why the DNC and popular democrats shun them at every opportunity.
I agree that building a viable third party should start from the ground up, focusing on grassroots positions and down-ballot posts. However, the reality is that change isn't linear and doesn't always follow a neat timeline. While the efforts to establish viable third-party candidates for 2024 may not have achieved widespread success, it doesn't mean the push for alternatives should be abandoned or ridiculed.
Regarding Trump, I don’t deny the dangers his return poses, particularly to disenfranchised groups. However, this isn't just about Trump; it’s about the systemic issues that allow figures like him to gain power in the first place.
If third-party efforts only focused on deplatforming conservatives, they would risk becoming just another arm of the duopoly, which itself has consistently failed to bring about meaningful change for working people. The real challenge is not just to oppose one party or candidate but to break the cycle that leaves voters feeling trapped between two unsatisfactory choices.
This is incredibly naiive and counterproductive.
Listen to these people.
Nah, I won’t be taking advice from those who are desperate to keep the capitalist duopoly in power.
Their insistence on maintaining the status quo only proves how threatened they are by the real change we’re fighting for.
Uh huh.
Glad you agree. Thank you!
Uh huh.
Glad you agree!
You're deeply misrepresenting the position. We're not desperate to keep the duopoly. We're desperate to keep it from collapsing into a dictatorship, and you're over there trying to kick its legs off.
If the system is so fragile that it risks collapsing into a dictatorship, then it's already broken beyond repair. So I refuse to help the duopoly even more.
Nonsense. If you work outside of the system that exists, you won't ever make meaningful change on that system. You'll only ever make it harder for the people who have accepted reality and are working from within the system to change it. You can't do that from the outside short of a full catastrophic collapse, no matter how much noise you make.
The real nonsense is believing that change can only come from within a corrupt and broken system.
History shows us that real progress has often come from those who challenged the system from the outside, refusing to accept the crumbs offered by those in power.
I’m not here to wait for “catastrophic collapse” but to push for the kind of meaningful change that the establishment fears.
If working from within has been so effective, why are we still stuck with the same old problems?