He is a finn, what do you expect from him? I fully support his position
Really sticking it to those... friendly Russian kernel maintainers. Really doing your part for your individual Two Minutes Hate.
So presumably, as a consistent person that is outrages by invasions and death, you call for the expulsion of all Americans and Usraelis, right?
He is a finn, what do you expect from him?
Continued use of the swastika in his military and a stubborn refusal to acknowledge how many Soviets the Finns starved to death in Leningrad while working with the Third Reich, presumably.
Playing the "but they have Nazi supporters in their military" game can be played all day. It's silly. Every military probably does. It turns out assholes love killing people and Nazis. They'll probably join the military to get permission to kill people.
I think the comment was about the Finnish Air Force not dropping a literal swastika from their coat of arms until just a few years back. Like you know, the official government sanctioned Air Force, the whole thing and not just a single batallion
Ah, yeah. OK. That isn't a nazi reference. Nazis chose the swastika because it's present in many cultures. A key thing is there's is rotated 45°. If you notice, the one the Finnish Air Force had is the tradition rotation. It'd been in use since 1918, before the Nazis started most of their shit. It had nothing to do with them, and was a prominent symbol in their culture. Calling it a Nazi symbol is a lie, and it's probably on purpose to be misleading.
Edit: They didn't say it was a nazi symbol, just a swastika. It was implied to be bad though, which implies it was a Nazi reference.
It is bad enough not to remove it for 70 years after the nazi genocide, but I guess Finns get a free pass on anything due to their extremely unique cultural heritage
It sucks that Nazis get to ruin cultures symbols who had no association with them. However, they prominently used eagles in their imagery, and somehow that isn't ruined. Should every nation have to stop using eagles or be called Nazis? That's stupid, right?
Also, they largely did stop using it after WWII, as the article mentions. It was still used it some emblems, flags, and decorations, but not as common. It's still on the Finnish flag of the president, though it's got different proportions and you'd look like a complete idiot for implying it's a nazi symbol there.
The swastika is all over the world. It's a very basic geometric symbol. It is no surprise it's appealing. Go play Minecraft or something and make a symmetric design, and odds are you'll make a swastika. I know playing Factorio I see it appear all the time. Nazis ruined a really cool perfectly innocent shape, and it's honestly time we should try to recapture it.
Or, hear me out, we don't recapture it because it has a fucked up context. It might not seem like a big deal for those who haven't been close to the terror, but not everybody lives on the other side of the world.
And yeah, using nazi-adjacent eagles or fasces (like your government proudly displays in many symbols) is pretty fucked up too.
What about neo-classical architecture, which the Nazis loved? What about white marble sculptures? What about the colors red and black?
They used many symbols. Letting them be the owners of them gives them legitimacy. Why do we want people looking at old art, seeing a swastika, and then having the thought that the Nazis actually have a cultural association with that? They don't. They appropriated cultures to give themselves legitimacy. Allowing this to continue furthers their goals. They don't own the swastika, eagles, fasces, neo-classical architecture, appealing to Roman culture, or anything else. They stole it all, and continuing to let them own it is an issue.
You are free to reclaim the symbols, make an account Cethin88 (it's a birth year!) with a marble statue profile pic, then complain about how it's Nazis' fault you're being misunderstood.
And there is also quite a difference between taking a work from x hundreds of years ago that might incorporate some symbol (like Ancient Roman fasces or swastikas in Eastern Slavic pagan art), and being a modern state that refuses to drop the MAIN nazi symbol. And just so we are clear, the Finnish Air Force did eventually drop the symbol a few years back, I guess it must have been because of woke. Or maybe they actually realized it doesn't look great what with the fascist revival in the entirety of Europe, but many people have had a problem with that for a long time before that already, especially since so many Finns are PROUD of their nazi collaboration history.
88 isn't really the same thing, although, like you said, some people perfectly innocently use it, which is why it's a dog whistle. 88 became a thing when Nazis had to hide they were Nazis. The swastika is not that obviously.
Why they dropped the symbol is likely because people were using it to say the Finnish government were Nazis, like th comment above implied. It's an easy target for people like Russian apologists to say "we're denazifying Finland" or whatever, while they do plenty of actual fascist shit.
Symbols are as useful as they're interpreted. If they're interpreted wrong then you should probably change them. It doesn't mean we should allow people like the person above to imply anyone using them is a fascist. They should be countered and shown how stupid their arguments are. I have no idea why you're defending them.
The swastika was swapped out before Russia invaded Ukraine, before Russia tried to claim the "denazifying" shit, so you're barking up the wrong tree.
And I am defending them because it was perfectly adequate snark to point out the hypocrisy of "yeah it's okay, he's Finn after all" when it comes to ugly xenophobia, when Finns themselves have a shitty track record. They did actually literally ally with Nazis, and if we now want to talk about "historical context" then it's fair game to look into shit like refusing to drop what is now a nazi symbol by the official organ of the state, for decades.
Or we could stop running defense for any shitty actions somebody from "our side" does towards anybody else, and do some actual self-crit every once in a while. I've had Russian friends literally get attacked for simply being Russian (and no, not supportive of the invasion) after 2022, so I am not going to shut up when people give xenophobes a free pass, but push back super hard against what is a mild burn at best.
Posting a new comment after I looked up the Finnish Air Force, which I'm assuming this is vaguely referencing. It isn't a Nazi swastika. It is a traditional swastika that has been in use in their culture for a long time. The nazi's chose the symbol because it's present in many cultures and they wanted to take it to give them legitimacy. There's is rotated 45° though. The Finnish Air Force had been using it since 1918, before the Nazis. To imply a negative connection implies it's a Nazi symbol, which it wasn't. You're being purposefully misleading (which isn't unexpected sadly, and you've probably heard this from someone else misleading you), but you aren't accurate.
His position is that he's an asshole who won't stand up to the US lol
Ok western chauvinist. Why doesn’t he ban the genocidal Israelis? It’s because he is full of shit and a racist
Can't tell if this a rage bot or an average .ml user
Notice the Z not exactly a reasonable person
Would you say that Linus was “just following orders” of the Finnish government
...because removing somebody's kernel maintainer priv and the industrialised genocide of people is remotely comparable.
Because he's not making any political, moral, or personal decisions, and only follows the law he is forced to.
When the law forces him to sanction Israel, he will do so, and when the law stops forcing him to sanction Russia, he will stop doing so.
bullshit, his statement was unprofessionally filled with glee at banning russians who he clearly sees as evil as a whole, as he's banning people who have nothing to do with the war that he has worked with for years just so he can make a libshit stink over it.
I completely agree he was unprofessional about it and should have handled it better. It was his choice in how he communicated it, and I think he failed on that point. Having said that, it was not his choice to do it, and I'm sure he will undue it when it's legally possible. Hopefully using better judgement on his choice of words then.
It was his choice to be a baby brained racist, how nice
No, not nice at all. I'm answering your question on why he doesn't ban Israeli contributors, not deliberating on the niceness of anyone in particular.
come on now, not all Finns are fascist dipshits, the Punakaarti were great
not to be a bigoted piece of shit? i guess we can't expect that from either of you worthless hounds.
if he wasn't a complete hypocrite he'd ban people from the u.s. and israel as well.
Would you support him banning AmeriKKKan and Isn'treali developers too, given that their countries' war crimes are far grander in scale, horror, and devastation than Russia's?
Plus, they actually have a history of injecting backdoors into everything. Israel's government is known in the international stage for their espionage and blackmail first and foremost (on the domestic, for their genocide of course).
AmeriKKKan and Isn'treali
I bet you're one of those dorks who replaces the S with a dollar sign when you write "Microsoft"
So you're a russophobe as well?
.ml account
Yes, all of the people who initially used the software and tested it before you are the people who already moved away from Reddit for ethical reasons, not because of the API catastrophe. We are more likely to be on the older instances, not the Reddit instances. Lemmy.ml users tend to be far more politically aware of how propaganda works and avoidant of US interference. New instance users like to cheerlead the US exactly like reddit does.
Wherever there's Americans, there's fascists. Their media is so xenophobic all the time they think not calling for concentration camps for Mexicans is all it takes to not be racist. Can't believe it's not just acceptable, but popular to act like Finland has any right to be xenophobic against Russians.
"But the war", yeah, check again when the winter war was and what exactly Finland wanted to achieve. Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
The Finnish winter war is harrowing to read about, especially the effects on their history departments. They are all completely devoted to whitewashing Nazis. If you haven't read Tepora's Finnish Civil War 1918 History Memory Legacy I recommend finding the time.
And yes it's ridiculous. Not calling for EVEN MORE concentration camps for Mexicans while still maintaining the current border system impresses them.
Well, when you put it like that, I expect him to join the Israeli death squads "out of pragmatism"
He is a finn, what do you expect from him? I fully support his position
Really sticking it to those... friendly Russian kernel maintainers. Really doing your part for your individual Two Minutes Hate.
So presumably, as a consistent person that is outrages by invasions and death, you call for the expulsion of all Americans and Usraelis, right?
Continued use of the swastika in his military and a stubborn refusal to acknowledge how many Soviets the Finns starved to death in Leningrad while working with the Third Reich, presumably.
There are plenty of people with swastikas fighting for Russia too. For example Dmitry Valerievich Utkin (Дмитрий Валерьевич Уткин).
Playing the "but they have Nazi supporters in their military" game can be played all day. It's silly. Every military probably does. It turns out assholes love killing people and Nazis. They'll probably join the military to get permission to kill people.
I think the comment was about the Finnish Air Force not dropping a literal swastika from their coat of arms until just a few years back. Like you know, the official government sanctioned Air Force, the whole thing and not just a single batallion
Ah, yeah. OK. That isn't a nazi reference. Nazis chose the swastika because it's present in many cultures. A key thing is there's is rotated 45°. If you notice, the one the Finnish Air Force had is the tradition rotation. It'd been in use since 1918, before the Nazis started most of their shit. It had nothing to do with them, and was a prominent symbol in their culture. Calling it a Nazi symbol is a lie, and it's probably on purpose to be misleading.
Edit: They didn't say it was a nazi symbol, just a swastika. It was implied to be bad though, which implies it was a Nazi reference.
It is bad enough not to remove it for 70 years after the nazi genocide, but I guess Finns get a free pass on anything due to their extremely unique cultural heritage
It sucks that Nazis get to ruin cultures symbols who had no association with them. However, they prominently used eagles in their imagery, and somehow that isn't ruined. Should every nation have to stop using eagles or be called Nazis? That's stupid, right?
Also, they largely did stop using it after WWII, as the article mentions. It was still used it some emblems, flags, and decorations, but not as common. It's still on the Finnish flag of the president, though it's got different proportions and you'd look like a complete idiot for implying it's a nazi symbol there.
The swastika is all over the world. It's a very basic geometric symbol. It is no surprise it's appealing. Go play Minecraft or something and make a symmetric design, and odds are you'll make a swastika. I know playing Factorio I see it appear all the time. Nazis ruined a really cool perfectly innocent shape, and it's honestly time we should try to recapture it.
Or, hear me out, we don't recapture it because it has a fucked up context. It might not seem like a big deal for those who haven't been close to the terror, but not everybody lives on the other side of the world.
And yeah, using nazi-adjacent eagles or fasces (like your government proudly displays in many symbols) is pretty fucked up too.
What about neo-classical architecture, which the Nazis loved? What about white marble sculptures? What about the colors red and black?
They used many symbols. Letting them be the owners of them gives them legitimacy. Why do we want people looking at old art, seeing a swastika, and then having the thought that the Nazis actually have a cultural association with that? They don't. They appropriated cultures to give themselves legitimacy. Allowing this to continue furthers their goals. They don't own the swastika, eagles, fasces, neo-classical architecture, appealing to Roman culture, or anything else. They stole it all, and continuing to let them own it is an issue.
You are free to reclaim the symbols, make an account Cethin88 (it's a birth year!) with a marble statue profile pic, then complain about how it's Nazis' fault you're being misunderstood.
And there is also quite a difference between taking a work from x hundreds of years ago that might incorporate some symbol (like Ancient Roman fasces or swastikas in Eastern Slavic pagan art), and being a modern state that refuses to drop the MAIN nazi symbol. And just so we are clear, the Finnish Air Force did eventually drop the symbol a few years back, I guess it must have been because of woke. Or maybe they actually realized it doesn't look great what with the fascist revival in the entirety of Europe, but many people have had a problem with that for a long time before that already, especially since so many Finns are PROUD of their nazi collaboration history.
88 isn't really the same thing, although, like you said, some people perfectly innocently use it, which is why it's a dog whistle. 88 became a thing when Nazis had to hide they were Nazis. The swastika is not that obviously.
Why they dropped the symbol is likely because people were using it to say the Finnish government were Nazis, like th comment above implied. It's an easy target for people like Russian apologists to say "we're denazifying Finland" or whatever, while they do plenty of actual fascist shit.
Symbols are as useful as they're interpreted. If they're interpreted wrong then you should probably change them. It doesn't mean we should allow people like the person above to imply anyone using them is a fascist. They should be countered and shown how stupid their arguments are. I have no idea why you're defending them.
The swastika was swapped out before Russia invaded Ukraine, before Russia tried to claim the "denazifying" shit, so you're barking up the wrong tree.
And I am defending them because it was perfectly adequate snark to point out the hypocrisy of "yeah it's okay, he's Finn after all" when it comes to ugly xenophobia, when Finns themselves have a shitty track record. They did actually literally ally with Nazis, and if we now want to talk about "historical context" then it's fair game to look into shit like refusing to drop what is now a nazi symbol by the official organ of the state, for decades.
Or we could stop running defense for any shitty actions somebody from "our side" does towards anybody else, and do some actual self-crit every once in a while. I've had Russian friends literally get attacked for simply being Russian (and no, not supportive of the invasion) after 2022, so I am not going to shut up when people give xenophobes a free pass, but push back super hard against what is a mild burn at best.
Posting a new comment after I looked up the Finnish Air Force, which I'm assuming this is vaguely referencing. It isn't a Nazi swastika. It is a traditional swastika that has been in use in their culture for a long time. The nazi's chose the symbol because it's present in many cultures and they wanted to take it to give them legitimacy. There's is rotated 45° though. The Finnish Air Force had been using it since 1918, before the Nazis. To imply a negative connection implies it's a Nazi symbol, which it wasn't. You're being purposefully misleading (which isn't unexpected sadly, and you've probably heard this from someone else misleading you), but you aren't accurate.
His position is that he's an asshole who won't stand up to the US lol
Ok western chauvinist. Why doesn’t he ban the genocidal Israelis? It’s because he is full of shit and a racist
Can't tell if this a rage bot or an average .ml user Notice the Z not exactly a reasonable person
Would you say that Linus was “just following orders” of the Finnish government
...because removing somebody's kernel maintainer priv and the industrialised genocide of people is remotely comparable.
not all of us are crazy 😭
Not all but a lot
fair lmfao. i'm intentionally here in attempts to out-populate the crazy
Because he's not making any political, moral, or personal decisions, and only follows the law he is forced to.
When the law forces him to sanction Israel, he will do so, and when the law stops forcing him to sanction Russia, he will stop doing so.
bullshit, his statement was unprofessionally filled with glee at banning russians who he clearly sees as evil as a whole, as he's banning people who have nothing to do with the war that he has worked with for years just so he can make a libshit stink over it.
I completely agree he was unprofessional about it and should have handled it better. It was his choice in how he communicated it, and I think he failed on that point. Having said that, it was not his choice to do it, and I'm sure he will undue it when it's legally possible. Hopefully using better judgement on his choice of words then.
It was his choice to be a baby brained racist, how nice
No, not nice at all. I'm answering your question on why he doesn't ban Israeli contributors, not deliberating on the niceness of anyone in particular.
come on now, not all Finns are fascist dipshits, the Punakaarti were great
not to be a bigoted piece of shit? i guess we can't expect that from either of you worthless hounds.
if he wasn't a complete hypocrite he'd ban people from the u.s. and israel as well.
Would you support him banning AmeriKKKan and Isn'treali developers too, given that their countries' war crimes are far grander in scale, horror, and devastation than Russia's?
Plus, they actually have a history of injecting backdoors into everything. Israel's government is known in the international stage for their espionage and blackmail first and foremost (on the domestic, for their genocide of course).
I bet you're one of those dorks who replaces the S with a dollar sign when you write "Microsoft"
So you're a russophobe as well?
Yes, all of the people who initially used the software and tested it before you are the people who already moved away from Reddit for ethical reasons, not because of the API catastrophe. We are more likely to be on the older instances, not the Reddit instances. Lemmy.ml users tend to be far more politically aware of how propaganda works and avoidant of US interference. New instance users like to cheerlead the US exactly like reddit does.
Wherever there's Americans, there's fascists. Their media is so xenophobic all the time they think not calling for concentration camps for Mexicans is all it takes to not be racist. Can't believe it's not just acceptable, but popular to act like Finland has any right to be xenophobic against Russians.
"But the war", yeah, check again when the winter war was and what exactly Finland wanted to achieve. Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
The Finnish winter war is harrowing to read about, especially the effects on their history departments. They are all completely devoted to whitewashing Nazis. If you haven't read Tepora's Finnish Civil War 1918 History Memory Legacy I recommend finding the time.
And yes it's ridiculous. Not calling for EVEN MORE concentration camps for Mexicans while still maintaining the current border system impresses them.
Well, when you put it like that, I expect him to join the Israeli death squads "out of pragmatism"