UA, and by that I mean its state, has been a naked pawn since 2014, responding to Western interests to stoke and prolong civil war by the Russian border, target ethnic Russians with discrimination and violence (and Roma, and LGBTQ+ people, etc), and generally toy with joining NATO, a highly aggressive anti-Russian military organization.
The dominant Western propaganda narrative is to try to get everyone to forget the breathless reporting their media outlets did on Ukraine from 2013-2022 and to instead use absurd little terms like, "unprovoked invasion", which I would guess is also where the idea of UA being simply defensive comes from. Yes, they were invaded by Russia, but they've also been ratcheting up pressure on Russia for a decade through various cynical moves, beginning with a coup against a government that was becoming slightly friendlier with Russia. The most notable events just prior to the RF invading was a huge ramping up of shelling of the Donbas, including civilian population centers.
Anyways, yes it is bad to keep pushing the "escalate and fight to the last Ukrainian button". It would be much better if Ukraine were forced to negotiate peace and were not acting as a pawn against Russia rather than a state protecting its own people.
I'd like Ukrainians to be alive and not in a war.
Wow I didn't know russian shills followed us to lemmy
Its not nice to call ppl shills m8
Lmao, I'm sorry I hurt the poor fascists feelings
Why r they fascist?
You guys seem to support fasciZt governments.
Inb4 America/Ukraine are the real fascists.
How is wanting a war to end without more innocent lives being lost "supporting" a fascist government?
If Russia wanted to end the war so bad they could just leave. Ukraine doesn't have that option.
Okay but instead of making infantile suggestions that no one with any sort of adult mind think is even possible, including the US and Ukrainian Militaries, why don’t we talk about actually likely ways to end the war? Why are the two choices perpetual war and unilateral surrender? It sounds an awful lot like you want to fight “to the last Ukrainian”, to me.
Hmm, seems like you're arguing in good faith.
I never said those are the only two choices, but every peace deal that Russia has come to the table with either includes ceding large amounts of territory or giving up control over their government. Do you think the Ukrainian people would find any of that acceptable after everything Russia has put them through?
Sounds an awful lot like you just want fascist Russia to conquer Ukraine.
We may have varying definitions of their territory, or maybe we’re looking at different proposed peace accords.
Donetsk and Luhansk are recognized by Ukraine under the Minsk II accords as autonomous zones, contained within Ukraine, but not subject to its laws. So, if that’s what you’re referring to, that isn’t Ukrainian territory anymore than Turkish Kurdistan is Turkeys territory. I support the right of people to self determination, up to and including the right to declare autonomy.
If that’s not what you’re referring to, then I must be behind, because that’s the last peace accord that I heard of.
Ok, but how is supporting a peace deal to facilitate the outcome of russian forces withdrawing a fascist position?
That all depends on what you'd consider to be acceptable terms of a peace deal. Is it a deal that rewards the aggressors for their aggression?
No, the heads of NATO, Ukraine and Russia shouldn't be rewarded for their acts of violence against the people of Russia and Ukraine. All sides should withdraw from the territories in which they are not welcome by the people.
Also Russia didn't invade Ukraine to "gain new territory", do you know when the war started?
(Furthermore its important to clarify that although Russia is a neoliberal hellpit, NATO, using Ukraine as a meat shield for their interests, is way, way worse, literally headed by one of the most evil countries that ever existed: the USA, as such, it is foolish to trust that anything they do in this situation will help the people of Ukraine, including dump military hardware into the region for disposal and testing)
🙄 Yes, we all know Russia started a thinly veiled proxy war in 2014 when the Ukrainian people voted in favor of a western friendly government, and then Russia escalated it into a full blown war when that wasn't getting them the influence over Ukraine that they wanted.
What I don't understand, though, is why a bunch of self proclaimed communists are so in favor of expanding the global influence of a post-fascist government. Aren't communists supposed to be diametrically opposed to fascism? Their wartime Z symbol is essentially a half drawn swastika, like how do you not see it?
Being in favor of China, as they are at least communists in rhetoric, I get. But really, modern day Russia? Marx would be ashamed.
Ukrainian people voted in favor of a western friendly government
Your Ukranian "people":
(its mostly fascist paramilitaries funded by god knows who)
Your "voting":
(there was no democractic referendum held to oust the president)
Also, the west itself is a white supremacist fascist entity who went to Ukraine in 2014 to put pressure on Russia by cutting off potential allies. They are not the good guys.
What I don't understand, though, is why a bunch of self proclaimed communists are so in favor of expanding the global influence of a post-fascist government.
Again, how are peace talks and settling matters via negotiation being "in favor of a fascist government"? Why are you so in favor of expanding the global influence of a fascist organisation (NATO) via the continuation of the war? Why are you opposed to the people of the Donbas being free from the horrors of civil war at the hands of the Ukranian military? Did you know that the majority of people in the Donbas are ethnic russians, and are pro-separatist? Did you know that this is the reason why Ukraine started shelling the fuck out of them and decided to sic their Nazi dogs on them in 2014? Why are you in favor of continuing a bloody war when a mutually beneficial agreement for all sides, even with respect to pre war conditions, can be reached from peaceful negotiation?
Their wartime Z symbol is essentially a half drawn swastika, like how do you not see it?
This is projection, the left has consistently been anti war this entire time, yet liberals are on the side of outright fascists in the ukranian military being given experimental weapons when they are not outright denying they exist.
Reasonable and nuanced opinions aren't allowed on the internet. What are you trying to do here? To show that you've got media literacy that's a little better than Russia=bad.
UA, and by that I mean its state, has been a naked pawn since 2014, responding to Western interests to stoke and prolong civil war by the Russian border, target ethnic Russians with discrimination and violence (and Roma, and LGBTQ+ people, etc), and generally toy with joining NATO, a highly aggressive anti-Russian military organization.
The dominant Western propaganda narrative is to try to get everyone to forget the breathless reporting their media outlets did on Ukraine from 2013-2022 and to instead use absurd little terms like, "unprovoked invasion", which I would guess is also where the idea of UA being simply defensive comes from. Yes, they were invaded by Russia, but they've also been ratcheting up pressure on Russia for a decade through various cynical moves, beginning with a coup against a government that was becoming slightly friendlier with Russia. The most notable events just prior to the RF invading was a huge ramping up of shelling of the Donbas, including civilian population centers.
Anyways, yes it is bad to keep pushing the "escalate and fight to the last Ukrainian button". It would be much better if Ukraine were forced to negotiate peace and were not acting as a pawn against Russia rather than a state protecting its own people.
I'd like Ukrainians to be alive and not in a war.
Wow I didn't know russian shills followed us to lemmy
Its not nice to call ppl shills m8
Lmao, I'm sorry I hurt the poor fascists feelings
Why r they fascist?
You guys seem to support fasciZt governments.
Inb4 America/Ukraine are the real fascists.
How is wanting a war to end without more innocent lives being lost "supporting" a fascist government?
If Russia wanted to end the war so bad they could just leave. Ukraine doesn't have that option.
Okay but instead of making infantile suggestions that no one with any sort of adult mind think is even possible, including the US and Ukrainian Militaries, why don’t we talk about actually likely ways to end the war? Why are the two choices perpetual war and unilateral surrender? It sounds an awful lot like you want to fight “to the last Ukrainian”, to me.
Hmm, seems like you're arguing in good faith.
I never said those are the only two choices, but every peace deal that Russia has come to the table with either includes ceding large amounts of territory or giving up control over their government. Do you think the Ukrainian people would find any of that acceptable after everything Russia has put them through?
Sounds an awful lot like you just want fascist Russia to conquer Ukraine.
We may have varying definitions of their territory, or maybe we’re looking at different proposed peace accords. Donetsk and Luhansk are recognized by Ukraine under the Minsk II accords as autonomous zones, contained within Ukraine, but not subject to its laws. So, if that’s what you’re referring to, that isn’t Ukrainian territory anymore than Turkish Kurdistan is Turkeys territory. I support the right of people to self determination, up to and including the right to declare autonomy.
If that’s not what you’re referring to, then I must be behind, because that’s the last peace accord that I heard of.
Ok, but how is supporting a peace deal to facilitate the outcome of russian forces withdrawing a fascist position?
That all depends on what you'd consider to be acceptable terms of a peace deal. Is it a deal that rewards the aggressors for their aggression?
No, the heads of NATO, Ukraine and Russia shouldn't be rewarded for their acts of violence against the people of Russia and Ukraine. All sides should withdraw from the territories in which they are not welcome by the people.
Also Russia didn't invade Ukraine to "gain new territory", do you know when the war started?
(Furthermore its important to clarify that although Russia is a neoliberal hellpit, NATO, using Ukraine as a meat shield for their interests, is way, way worse, literally headed by one of the most evil countries that ever existed: the USA, as such, it is foolish to trust that anything they do in this situation will help the people of Ukraine, including dump military hardware into the region for disposal and testing)
🙄 Yes, we all know Russia started a thinly veiled proxy war in 2014 when the Ukrainian people voted in favor of a western friendly government, and then Russia escalated it into a full blown war when that wasn't getting them the influence over Ukraine that they wanted.
What I don't understand, though, is why a bunch of self proclaimed communists are so in favor of expanding the global influence of a post-fascist government. Aren't communists supposed to be diametrically opposed to fascism? Their wartime Z symbol is essentially a half drawn swastika, like how do you not see it?
Being in favor of China, as they are at least communists in rhetoric, I get. But really, modern day Russia? Marx would be ashamed.
Your Ukranian "people":
(its mostly fascist paramilitaries funded by god knows who)
Your "voting":
(there was no democractic referendum held to oust the president)
Also, the west itself is a white supremacist fascist entity who went to Ukraine in 2014 to put pressure on Russia by cutting off potential allies. They are not the good guys.
Again, how are peace talks and settling matters via negotiation being "in favor of a fascist government"? Why are you so in favor of expanding the global influence of a fascist organisation (NATO) via the continuation of the war? Why are you opposed to the people of the Donbas being free from the horrors of civil war at the hands of the Ukranian military? Did you know that the majority of people in the Donbas are ethnic russians, and are pro-separatist? Did you know that this is the reason why Ukraine started shelling the fuck out of them and decided to sic their Nazi dogs on them in 2014? Why are you in favor of continuing a bloody war when a mutually beneficial agreement for all sides, even with respect to pre war conditions, can be reached from peaceful negotiation?
This is projection, the left has consistently been anti war this entire time, yet liberals are on the side of outright fascists in the ukranian military being given experimental weapons when they are not outright denying they exist.
They are getting paid.
Reasonable and nuanced opinions aren't allowed on the internet. What are you trying to do here? To show that you've got media literacy that's a little better than Russia=bad.