If protesters burned an effigy of Trump or Bush, none of us would bat a fucking eye.
But no matter what we think, this is protected speech.
It's protected speech up to a point. Then it becomes an actual threat. The gallows in front of Congress as the insurrectionists violently broke into the Capitol chanting "hang Mike Pence" wasn't protected speech.
Calling for the execution of your political foes crosses a line, especially when you know that there's a large element of your base willing to take your "protected speech" and turn it into action. That and the repeated calls from the right for violence (see Nick Fuentes calling for the execution of all Jews and enemies of Trump) elevate this beyond protected speech IMO.
Bruh it's a christmas tree.
The guy who hung these ornaments was one of the January 6th insurrectionists. He's shown that he's willing to engage in violence and so it's not "just a Christmas tree."
He's since deleted his post and posted that it wasn't a call for violence. Given that he included President Biden and VP Harris in his "noose ornaments," he probably got a visit from the Secret Service. They don't tend to view these things as "just harmless pranks" or "just some odd Christmas ornaments." Especially when there are clearly people (this person included) willing to take the speech and try to make it a reality.
he also posted photos of it on the internet. intentionally. Remove the tree. The tree itself is largely irrelevant. he posted pictures of people being hung in effigy. it's as simple as that.
It's a fucking ornament. You're allowed to want people executed and you're allowed to express it in many indirect ways. You can try to paint it as incitement all you want, but passive bullshit like ornaments are fine.
What is so hard to understand, they advertised their desire for political murder to their constituents. It wasn’t “just an ornament” in private. They made a public statement by displaying it.
Why do republican sycophants insist on removing all context from this stuff? Bending over backwards to present it in a favorable way is so slimy and manipulative.
I'm not a republican I just have principles. I know it's hard to see the difference when you can rationalize calling a christmas ornament a terroristic threat.
Politicians are trash and they all deserve a fucking noose. Every protest should have a gallows and a guillotine. And you'd be fine with that if they were 'your' people. Partisan fucking hack lemmy leftists can fuck off.
I just have principles
then according to my principles, yours are absolute shit. It wasn't a private display in his home. it was posted to social media for the entire world to see. A post that included people being hung in effigy. And is 100% a threat. particularly considering this guy was at jan 6 and is most definitely not a peaceful anything.
you're defending a terrorist.
Why would it matter if it was a private display? People are allowed to have and express their opinions, even if they're shitty opinions.
Legally there are boundaries on speech as well, that ornaments don't cross.
I'm not defending him I'm defending his right to have opinions. He's a worthless, abhorrent piece of shit.
I’m not defending him I’m defending his right to have opinions. He’s a worthless, abhorrent piece of shit.
by insisting he doesn't get to be charged for making threats against elected members of government? he committed a crime. the speech itself might be protected, but those protections don't protect against consequences. insisting otherwise is absolutely defending that worthless, abhorrent piece of shit.
I'm insisting his speech is shitty but political speech.
I don't think he could sanely be charged, though, either. It doesn't meet the legal requirements to be a threat. You can look up the legal threshold for speech to be considered a threat in the US.
I’m insisting his speech is shitty but political speech.
I suppose you feel the same way when he was chanting "HANG MIKE PENCE" outside the complex where... Mike Pence was trying to do his fucking job, huh?
Until they breached the capitol, yeah. Of course. It's a fucking protest. By your definition lots of CEOs public death threats on lemmy daily. But they're just doing their jobs. Right? You're supposed to have a wide berth on speech and robust response to action. Especially political figures, even when they're doing their job.
You don't have to demonize and mistreat people having genuine dialog with you. We're allowed to have different opinions and still treat each other like human beings. Overall this is a small disagreement over human rights.
Why would it matter if it was a private display? People are allowed to have and express their opinions, even if they’re shitty opinions.
because a public and threatening display is a threat.
A threat against POTUS, VPOTUS and several other elected government leaders is a crime. a very serious crime.
I think it's materially different from a threat. When we talk about killing pedos is that a threat? What we say is much worse.
And, yeah, some of the best protected people in the world. The ornaments won't hurt them unless someone puts them in a blunderbuss and sneaks into the whitehouse.
“What is so hard to understand, they advertised their desire for political murder to their constituents. It wasn’t “just an ornament” in private. They made a public statement advocating murder by displaying it.”
Words are wind, your actions show you bending over backwards to excuse this. Also the narrative that all politicians deserve a noose is what authoritarians push to keep their citizens from trying to fix things. There’s tons of money in reinforcing political apathy, because any person they convince to abandon the process is one less voice they have to care about come election season.
It’s a very terminally online take hyper focused on federal government. You think your local comptroller should be strung up? The irony of you calling me a political hack when your political philosophy is devoid of any nuance.
Yeah, no, sorry. Unless homie said "hey if I do this thing I mean this other thing" and it's insanely direct, I'm not buying your shit. They happen to be freedoms I choose to use as well.
You obviously knew what I meant you're just so focused on rationalizing your bullshit you can't manage a conversation in good faith.
All you’re saying here is you have no interest in actually critically thinking and analyzing people’s actions, instead just taking them explicitly at their word. Which is just gullibility. Do you think you’d feel threatened if someone was posting pictures of you being hung? What if the poster had a history of making statements that they thought you were evil or a threat to the country?
The sheer irony of that last paragraph is funny. You’re the one talking past me and ignoring things I say that are inconvenient. Until I force you to face it.
yes i would. Fucking hell. speech has meaning. And hanging people in effigy is easily considered a threat; particularly when you look at the history of lynch mobs. Are people allowed to say "I'm going to come for you and your family and hang you?" absolutely. But that protection doesn't mean the government can't lock your ass up for making terroristic threats.
"I'm going to come for you and your family and hang you?"
Bahaha. Are you equating a direct, verbal, actionable threat with a fucking Christmas tree ornament?
If protesters burned an effigy of Trump or Bush, none of us would bat a fucking eye.
But no matter what we think, this is protected speech.
It's protected speech up to a point. Then it becomes an actual threat. The gallows in front of Congress as the insurrectionists violently broke into the Capitol chanting "hang Mike Pence" wasn't protected speech.
Calling for the execution of your political foes crosses a line, especially when you know that there's a large element of your base willing to take your "protected speech" and turn it into action. That and the repeated calls from the right for violence (see Nick Fuentes calling for the execution of all Jews and enemies of Trump) elevate this beyond protected speech IMO.
Bruh it's a christmas tree.
The guy who hung these ornaments was one of the January 6th insurrectionists. He's shown that he's willing to engage in violence and so it's not "just a Christmas tree."
He's since deleted his post and posted that it wasn't a call for violence. Given that he included President Biden and VP Harris in his "noose ornaments," he probably got a visit from the Secret Service. They don't tend to view these things as "just harmless pranks" or "just some odd Christmas ornaments." Especially when there are clearly people (this person included) willing to take the speech and try to make it a reality.
he also posted photos of it on the internet. intentionally. Remove the tree. The tree itself is largely irrelevant. he posted pictures of people being hung in effigy. it's as simple as that.
It's a fucking ornament. You're allowed to want people executed and you're allowed to express it in many indirect ways. You can try to paint it as incitement all you want, but passive bullshit like ornaments are fine.
What is so hard to understand, they advertised their desire for political murder to their constituents. It wasn’t “just an ornament” in private. They made a public statement by displaying it.
Why do republican sycophants insist on removing all context from this stuff? Bending over backwards to present it in a favorable way is so slimy and manipulative.
I'm not a republican I just have principles. I know it's hard to see the difference when you can rationalize calling a christmas ornament a terroristic threat.
Politicians are trash and they all deserve a fucking noose. Every protest should have a gallows and a guillotine. And you'd be fine with that if they were 'your' people. Partisan fucking hack lemmy leftists can fuck off.
then according to my principles, yours are absolute shit. It wasn't a private display in his home. it was posted to social media for the entire world to see. A post that included people being hung in effigy. And is 100% a threat. particularly considering this guy was at jan 6 and is most definitely not a peaceful anything.
you're defending a terrorist.
Why would it matter if it was a private display? People are allowed to have and express their opinions, even if they're shitty opinions.
Legally there are boundaries on speech as well, that ornaments don't cross.
I'm not defending him I'm defending his right to have opinions. He's a worthless, abhorrent piece of shit.
by insisting he doesn't get to be charged for making threats against elected members of government? he committed a crime. the speech itself might be protected, but those protections don't protect against consequences. insisting otherwise is absolutely defending that worthless, abhorrent piece of shit.
I'm insisting his speech is shitty but political speech.
I don't think he could sanely be charged, though, either. It doesn't meet the legal requirements to be a threat. You can look up the legal threshold for speech to be considered a threat in the US.
I suppose you feel the same way when he was chanting "HANG MIKE PENCE" outside the complex where... Mike Pence was trying to do his fucking job, huh?
Until they breached the capitol, yeah. Of course. It's a fucking protest. By your definition lots of CEOs public death threats on lemmy daily. But they're just doing their jobs. Right? You're supposed to have a wide berth on speech and robust response to action. Especially political figures, even when they're doing their job.
You don't have to demonize and mistreat people having genuine dialog with you. We're allowed to have different opinions and still treat each other like human beings. Overall this is a small disagreement over human rights.
because a public and threatening display is a threat.
A threat against POTUS, VPOTUS and several other elected government leaders is a crime. a very serious crime.
I think it's materially different from a threat. When we talk about killing pedos is that a threat? What we say is much worse.
And, yeah, some of the best protected people in the world. The ornaments won't hurt them unless someone puts them in a blunderbuss and sneaks into the whitehouse.
Since you missed it I’ll repeat myself.
“What is so hard to understand, they advertised their desire for political murder to their constituents. It wasn’t “just an ornament” in private. They made a public statement advocating murder by displaying it.”
Words are wind, your actions show you bending over backwards to excuse this. Also the narrative that all politicians deserve a noose is what authoritarians push to keep their citizens from trying to fix things. There’s tons of money in reinforcing political apathy, because any person they convince to abandon the process is one less voice they have to care about come election season.
It’s a very terminally online take hyper focused on federal government. You think your local comptroller should be strung up? The irony of you calling me a political hack when your political philosophy is devoid of any nuance.
Yeah, no, sorry. Unless homie said "hey if I do this thing I mean this other thing" and it's insanely direct, I'm not buying your shit. They happen to be freedoms I choose to use as well.
You obviously knew what I meant you're just so focused on rationalizing your bullshit you can't manage a conversation in good faith.
All you’re saying here is you have no interest in actually critically thinking and analyzing people’s actions, instead just taking them explicitly at their word. Which is just gullibility. Do you think you’d feel threatened if someone was posting pictures of you being hung? What if the poster had a history of making statements that they thought you were evil or a threat to the country?
The sheer irony of that last paragraph is funny. You’re the one talking past me and ignoring things I say that are inconvenient. Until I force you to face it.
You’re in the wrong side of history here, bud.
After the revolution message me and I'll let you command the firing squad yourself.
If we're heading toward less civil liberties and limits on political speech, then I'm fine with that.
yes i would. Fucking hell. speech has meaning. And hanging people in effigy is easily considered a threat; particularly when you look at the history of lynch mobs. Are people allowed to say "I'm going to come for you and your family and hang you?" absolutely. But that protection doesn't mean the government can't lock your ass up for making terroristic threats.
Bahaha. Are you equating a direct, verbal, actionable threat with a fucking Christmas tree ornament?