Are you talking about the current war, or do you mean that they were there before Russia took Crimea in 2014?
If you mean they were there after 2014, what does that matter, it was still stolen land at that time.
If they were there before 2014, I would agree that some form of a path towards citizenship should be made, but again that is Ukraine's prerogative.
Edit: Reading your second article, that is exactly what Ukraine is proposing, expelling Russians who moved to annexed land after 2014. What about that seems unreasonable? They took a gamble and moved to a conflicted territory, maybe they were led to believe it was their right, but it doesn't change the reality that it wasn't.
About those who where there pre 2014.
They took up Russian citizenship.
Now they count as collaborators and traitors.
If you for example are policemen, doctor or have anything to do with the goverment, under Russian occupation you go to prison, as a traitor.
That does seem like a troubling situation. I do imagine that there are likely quite a few people who took those positions with good intentions, but when the new ruler comes to town and asks who wants power, it does seem obvious that there are strings attached. In this case, the deal was indeed to become a traitor in exchange for power/position, but I'm sure many were signing up just to survive.
You're right, there are probably good people that are going to be harmed alongside the bad, and I don't think there is a perfect solution. I would say it needs to get talked about as we get closer to a peace deal, it's truly regrettable that Russia decided to create this problem, maybe they could also work towards a solution for these citizens they forced into this role.
Edit: purely hypothetical, but one thought comes to mind. A compromise might be acceptable if they were given the choice to either retain their Ukrainian citizenship, but lose their position, or to defect to Russia. Though, once again this realm of decision making lies entirely in the hands of the victor of the war.
If people supporting the Russian occupation don't want to get detained by Ukraine, they can leave for Russia before Ukraine frees that territory.
Also, what would you describe people as that help an occupier annex your territory and build up the occupiers control over it, if not collaborateurs?
If they truly wanted to only help their people, they can argue that in court. Because as a country striving to become a fully fledged democracy, they will get a chance to defend themselves in Ukraine, as opposed to getting thrown out of windows, like in Russia.
I kind of have the same sentiment, but I have reservations about what is likely a very small fraction of them.
Mostly the thought of the doctors who are entwined with government, because I'm sure some doctors just want to help. Other than that, I'm sure there's at least one individual who did it as a way to get or maintain a job so they can make rent and survive, but that just might be me projecting my American fear of poverty onto a situation that doesn't apply.
Are doctors ever considered collaborateurs? If they rat out soldiers, sure, but I haven't heard Ukraine trying doctors for doing their job. If anything, they are lauded for continuing their job, like the operators at Chernobyl were, when they worked under Russian occupation.
I would hope not, though I know we're working off of incomplete information since we're not on the ground/in their shoes. It's certainly an appropriate fear to have, but it also cannot and should not stop the reversal of the annexation.
I'm of the mind of asking the Ukrainian government for leniency or due process once the dust settles and the rightful government takes back Crimea.
The other guy... It seems like he is making whatever excuse to suck off Putin that he can 🤣
You must be a troll checking if anyone is reading the articles you linked, right? This has to be an elaborate joke, right?
Per the very article you linked:
The timeline continues ahead to July 2024, when, according to new Russian laws, residents without Russian citizenship would be considered “foreigners” or “stateless” and can be detained in detention facilities and/or deported to Russia.
But thats, exactly what I ment?
It says that there is a Russian law that forces Ukrainans to take on a Russian passport by threatening to deport or incarcerate them for not having a Russian passport! The paragraph describes exactly what you claimed, but for Russia, not Ukraine.
Danilov suggested prosecuting Ukrainians who worked for the Moscow-appointed administration in Crimea, adding that some would face criminal charges and others would lose government pensions and be banned from public jobs.
All Russian citizens who moved to Crimea after 2014 should be expelled, and all real estate deals made under Russian rule nullified, Danilov wrote on Facebook.
His three-point plan:
Remove all collaborateurs from office
Prosecute some of them
Kick out Russians that came in after the annexation
Also, this was published on Facebook. Everyone knows how central Facebook is in relaying official Ukrainian positions. /s
Where does it say that all Ukrainians with Russian passports are going to get kicked out of Ukraine? That's right, nowhere. Your assumption is pure conjecture and wishfulness.
As per the other articles, you know collaborators are picked just because.
And you think from the hundreds of thousand of collaborators they will punish them mildly and selectivity?
As per the other articles, you know collaborators are picked just because.
Then they will have an excelent defense in court. There they can argue for their innocence. Russias treatment of suspected traitors has been quite different. You can try to make your case, but you can't really argue with gravity while falling out of a window, now can you?
And you think from the hundreds of thousand of collaborators they will punish them mildly and selectivity?
Yes. Because Ukraine is striving to be a democracy and already is moreso than Russia ever was, because the eyes of the Western world in combination with the pressure that comes with being dependent on Western aid will keep Ukraine in line and because Ukrainians understand that their fellow countrymen were subjected to intense pressures by the Russian occupation.
Yea but also per Ukrainian law you are not allowed to hold two citizensships. Hence you either dont have one or are a Russian for the Ukrainian goverment.
And you think Ukraine wouldn't allow its citizens to simply throw their forced Russian passport in the trash?
No, there is something stopping them from accepting them as citizens. The laws Ukraine has set in place.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/03/russia-forcing-ukrainian-passports-us-report https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-crimea-9da550b396f42cc267a4808bf99d5e6d
Are you talking about the current war, or do you mean that they were there before Russia took Crimea in 2014?
If you mean they were there after 2014, what does that matter, it was still stolen land at that time.
If they were there before 2014, I would agree that some form of a path towards citizenship should be made, but again that is Ukraine's prerogative.
Edit: Reading your second article, that is exactly what Ukraine is proposing, expelling Russians who moved to annexed land after 2014. What about that seems unreasonable? They took a gamble and moved to a conflicted territory, maybe they were led to believe it was their right, but it doesn't change the reality that it wasn't.
About those who where there pre 2014. They took up Russian citizenship. Now they count as collaborators and traitors. If you for example are policemen, doctor or have anything to do with the goverment, under Russian occupation you go to prison, as a traitor.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/08/europe/ukraine-hunt-for-collaborators-intl/index.html
That does seem like a troubling situation. I do imagine that there are likely quite a few people who took those positions with good intentions, but when the new ruler comes to town and asks who wants power, it does seem obvious that there are strings attached. In this case, the deal was indeed to become a traitor in exchange for power/position, but I'm sure many were signing up just to survive.
You're right, there are probably good people that are going to be harmed alongside the bad, and I don't think there is a perfect solution. I would say it needs to get talked about as we get closer to a peace deal, it's truly regrettable that Russia decided to create this problem, maybe they could also work towards a solution for these citizens they forced into this role.
Edit: purely hypothetical, but one thought comes to mind. A compromise might be acceptable if they were given the choice to either retain their Ukrainian citizenship, but lose their position, or to defect to Russia. Though, once again this realm of decision making lies entirely in the hands of the victor of the war.
If people supporting the Russian occupation don't want to get detained by Ukraine, they can leave for Russia before Ukraine frees that territory.
Like the two brothers this article is about.
Also, what would you describe people as that help an occupier annex your territory and build up the occupiers control over it, if not collaborateurs?
If they truly wanted to only help their people, they can argue that in court. Because as a country striving to become a fully fledged democracy, they will get a chance to defend themselves in Ukraine, as opposed to getting thrown out of windows, like in Russia.
I kind of have the same sentiment, but I have reservations about what is likely a very small fraction of them.
Mostly the thought of the doctors who are entwined with government, because I'm sure some doctors just want to help. Other than that, I'm sure there's at least one individual who did it as a way to get or maintain a job so they can make rent and survive, but that just might be me projecting my American fear of poverty onto a situation that doesn't apply.
Are doctors ever considered collaborateurs? If they rat out soldiers, sure, but I haven't heard Ukraine trying doctors for doing their job. If anything, they are lauded for continuing their job, like the operators at Chernobyl were, when they worked under Russian occupation.
I would hope not, though I know we're working off of incomplete information since we're not on the ground/in their shoes. It's certainly an appropriate fear to have, but it also cannot and should not stop the reversal of the annexation.
I'm of the mind of asking the Ukrainian government for leniency or due process once the dust settles and the rightful government takes back Crimea.
The other guy... It seems like he is making whatever excuse to suck off Putin that he can 🤣
You must be a troll checking if anyone is reading the articles you linked, right? This has to be an elaborate joke, right?
Per the very article you linked:
But thats, exactly what I ment?
It says that there is a Russian law that forces Ukrainans to take on a Russian passport by threatening to deport or incarcerate them for not having a Russian passport! The paragraph describes exactly what you claimed, but for Russia, not Ukraine.
Yes. Now they got the passports.
Now read what happens when they got it. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-crimea-9da550b396f42cc267a4808bf99d5e6d
As per the article you linked:
His three-point plan:
Also, this was published on Facebook. Everyone knows how central Facebook is in relaying official Ukrainian positions. /s
Where does it say that all Ukrainians with Russian passports are going to get kicked out of Ukraine? That's right, nowhere. Your assumption is pure conjecture and wishfulness.
As per the other articles, you know collaborators are picked just because.
And you think from the hundreds of thousand of collaborators they will punish them mildly and selectivity?
Yea but also per Ukrainian law you are not allowed to hold two citizensships. Hence you either dont have one or are a Russian for the Ukrainian goverment.
Then they will have an excelent defense in court. There they can argue for their innocence. Russias treatment of suspected traitors has been quite different. You can try to make your case, but you can't really argue with gravity while falling out of a window, now can you?
Yes. Because Ukraine is striving to be a democracy and already is moreso than Russia ever was, because the eyes of the Western world in combination with the pressure that comes with being dependent on Western aid will keep Ukraine in line and because Ukrainians understand that their fellow countrymen were subjected to intense pressures by the Russian occupation.
And you think Ukraine wouldn't allow its citizens to simply throw their forced Russian passport in the trash?