The State of Israel will no longer be able to accept the existence of an independent entity in Gaza".
Yeah and it shouldn't. Gaza is a lawless place. There is no legitimate government there. Somebody has to rebuild it. Who's going to do it?
Palestinians?
The hubris and condescension from you people. Maniacal.
By what? By who? Hamas is the de facto leadership in Gaza. It was popularly elected, and then popularly canceled all future elections. More than half the world recognizes it as a terrorist organization. It will not have its own state. Not now, not ever.
Hamas has also proven that it does not care one iota about Palestinian people or it wouldn't have built their tunnels under people's houses, and it would surrender and end this bloodshed.
Maybe one day the US cancels elections, then I guess it would be okay to blow you, your parents, your children, and your dog into oblivion. You probably voted for this, so you deserve to die with no dignity under piles of rubble and pain.
You can't imagine how ashamed of yourself you will be when you realize what kind of genocide you were cheering for all day and night.
Since 2007, Hamas has been the de facto administration in Gaza and has ruled with an iron fist. However, Israel has never relinquished its overall control of the territory, and the UN considers Gaza still occupied. Israeli forces, in coordination with Egypt, which signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1979, have kept Gaza enclosed by land, air and sea.
People, food, fuel, internet, power and water cannot leave or enter Gaza without permission from Israel. Egypt has a land crossing in the south, Rafah, but in practice, the military regime in Cairo – an enemy of Hamas and ally with Israel’s most powerful backer, the US – acts as an enforcer of the blockade.
Israel says the blockade is for its own security, citing repeated Hamas rocket attacks and incursions. But UN experts say the blockade, and intense bombing during five wars on Gaza, amounts to collective punishment on civilians, a war crime under international law.
I disagree with the conclusions of this pro Hamas nonsense. You have all the evidence right there.
Since 2007 Hamas rules Gaza with "an iron fist."
Ya know stoning "infidels," assassinating Palestinians who want peace, cancelling all future elections. Nobody is going to miss Hamas when it is killed to the man. It's a far right Islamist terrorist group and part of the much large pan Islamist movement whose motto is "death to America and death to Israel." The singular difference between Hamas and ISIS is that they disagree as to who should be in charge of the world, Iran, the Syrian caliphate, or a new caliphate in the Levant after they literally genocide all the Jews.
And don't bring Egypt into this.
Egypt doesn't want terrorists using its border to smuggle weapons and fighters, either.
Food goes through. The mass starvation everyone has been warning of for five months hasn't happened. The daily death toll is dropping like a stone.
"UN experts"
may sound authoritative and conclusive to you but I went to school with some of these people and know how shitty they are with facts and reasoning when they get emotional, which is what Hamas counts on. They should surrender. Period.
There won't be a lasting ceasefire until it stops fighting and by fighting I of course mean targeting Jewish civilians and using Gaza and everyone in it as its personal suit of armor.
All this shit you have to say about the evil Jewish empire is only to say that Israel must stop defending itself. That's why for all your links you cannot give a rational explanation for Hamas's plan on October 7 that didn't end in a massive civilian death toll. 30,000 is awful but Hamas decided with the consent of Gaza to put every one of them in harms way and then rolled the dice with their lives.
I love reading this BS. Hamas sucks but they don't stone people. Why do you feel the need to make shit up?
If you stopped constantly dehumanizing palestinians for a second, maybe you'd recognize Hamas began due to the terrible material conditions of Occupation, and has the goal of ending the occupation. Maybe you'd even recognize collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Hamas is very different from ISIS, but they both were born out of Terrorism from Israel and the US respectively. Hamas wants an end to the Apartheid, not genocide. That claim is both untrue, and holds no weight when Israel is currently engaging in genocide. This is about the state of Israel being founded on ethnic cleansing and it's most recent ethnic cleansing campaign. Not Jewish people, stop being antisemitic by thinking they're the same.
Hamas in its early days, according to former Israeli officials, was seen by the government of Israel as a counterweight to the PLO. Israel supported Hamas as a way to break the PLO's hold on the region. Retired official Avner Cohen, who worked in Gaza in the 1990s and oversaw religious affairs in the region, told the WSJ in 2009, “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation."
In the 2006 election, Ismail Haniyeh led Hamas as the head of Hamas' parliamentary bloc, while the president of the Palestinian Authority (PA), Mahmoud Abbas, led Fatah, as well as the PLO and Palestinian National Authority (PNA). (Haniyeh is now chairman of Hamas' political bureau, and Abbas remains in his positions, as of this writing.) With Haniyeh at the helm, Hamas won around 44% of the votes across the region, according to a 2006 ABC News report, a total that secured a majority of seats in the legislature under election rules.
And in the backdrop of the 2006 election were geographic and political divides between Gaza and the West Bank. Contrary to what Bennett claimed, Israel restricted Palestinians from moving in and out of Gaza, as well as between the strip and the West Bank, since at least the 1990s, after the first Palestinian Intifada, or uprising, according to Al Jazeera. In addition to Gaza's borders, the Israeli government controlled its coastline and airspace, allowing for military incursions into the territory, and, in 2007, established the blockade on goods and people that still exists as of this writing.
Hamas was born out of pan Islamism. Israel didn't invent it. It's hundreds of years old.
Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism were both movements born out of anti-colonialism and opposed western political involvement, but they are not the same and have different history. There is no monolith in the middle east. Neither a Muslim nor an Arab Monolith. If you think all Muslims or all Arab people think the same you're just being racist.
Hamas, while associated with the Muslim Brotherhood in the past, is not the same as the Muslim Brotherhood.
When Israel occupied the Palestinian territories in 1967, the Muslim Brotherhood members there did not take active part in the resistance, preferring to focus on social-religious reform and on restoring Islamic values. This outlook changed in the early 1980s, and Islamic organizations became more involved in Palestinian politics. The driving force behind this transformation was Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, a Palestinian refugee from Al-Jura. Of humble origins and quadriplegic, he became one of the Muslim Brotherhood's leaders in Gaza. His charisma and conviction brought him a loyal group of followers, upon whom he depended for everything from feeding him and transporting him to and from events to communicating his strategy to the public. In 1973, Yassin founded the social-religious charity Mujama al-Islamiya ("Islamic center") in Gaza as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.
The idea of Hamas began to take form on December 10, 1987, when several members of the Brotherhood convened the day after an incident in which an Israeli army truck crashed into a car at a Gaza checkpoint, killing four Palestinian day-workers, the impetus of the First Intifada. The group met at Yassin's house to strategize on how to maximize the incident's impact in spreading nationalist sentiments and sparking public demonstrations. A leaflet issued on December 14 calling for resistance is considered its first public intervention, though the name Hamas itself was not used until January 1988
To many Palestinians, Hamas represented a more authentic engagement with their national aspirations. This perception arose because Hamas offered an Islamic interpretation of the original goals of the secular PLO, focusing on armed struggle to liberate all of Palestine. This approach contrasted with the PLO's eventual acceptance of territorial compromise, which involved settling for a smaller portion of Mandatory Palestine. Hamas's formal establishment came a month after the PLO and other intifada leaders issued a 14-point declaration in January 1988 advocating for the coexistence of a Palestinian state alongside Israel.
Again with the link spam of things I already know.
I don't think that all violent Islamist extremists are the same. I think they are substantially the same, not distinguishable in meaningful ways. As I said, the only difference is who gets to be the caliphate. For example, while ISIS and Hamas leadership are formally at war, Hamas just can't stop getting its fighters to join ISIS, too.
That's the thing, the links I provide are to show exactly what you're getting wrong.
Th really don't though. You're drawing your conclusions from the facts and I think your conclusions are shallow and poorly reasoned, and I think that you often cite to other people who draw the same conclusions as you because it makes you feel good.
We don't have to agree it's fine. I can still respect you. You're disgusted by 30,000 deaths, mostly innocent civilians; you're probably a very decent and justice-minded person, instincts that must serve you well. They are my instincts too, and serve me well.
I'm not interested in the chicken or the egg debate. though because it's not relevant to the next hundred years. I'm interested in not having a hot war with Iran and not having the worlds dictatorships laughing while they wipe democracies off the map, which is what happens if Hamas gets its way. Start there.
Obviously Hamas is not going to get its way. Its outmatched in every sense except it's martyrous zeal, and your instinct is what they count on as their only path to continued existence.
Again I ask, what did they think would be the result of October 7?
Advocating for a One-State or Two-State Solution is not "wiping a Democracy off the map," it's advocating for Palestinian people to have basic human and civil rights. If you think that Israel committing Apartheid or ethnic cleansing are 'shallow and poorly reasoned conclusions' then you haven't taken a look at the facts. This has nothing to do with instincts, it has to do with media literacy. That's why as a serious source to learn more about the conflict, I point to Ilan Pappe or Avi Shlaim or Nur Masalha. They are magnitudes more knowledgeable about the history of Israel-Palestine.
Hamas officials said shortly following the attack that it was a response to the Israeli occupation, blockade of the Gaza Strip, Israeli settler violence against Palestinians, restrictions on the movement of Palestinians, and imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians.
Mohammad Deif, the head of Hamas's military wing, the Qassam Brigades, said in a recorded message on 7 October that it was in response to what he called the "desecration" of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Israel killing and wounding hundreds of Palestinians in 2023. He called on Palestinians and Arab Israelis to "expel the occupiers and demolish the walls". Deif also called on "Muslims everywhere to launch an attack" against Israel and to urged supporters to "kill them [the enemy] wherever you may find them". He continued, "in light of the continuing crimes against our people, in light of the orgy of occupation and its denial of international laws and resolutions, and in light of American and western [sic] support, we've decided to put an end to all this, so that the enemy understands that he can no longer revel without being held to account."
The answers to this conflict are not in the history. I don't care who came first, the chicken or the egg. Besides, if you dig deep enough, the oldest artifacts and recorded history in the entire region are Judiac.
Hamas is in charge of Gaza. The thing preventing Gaza from having what it needs is Hamas. They can't follow zero international laws and norms whatsoever and expect to be treated like a legitimate state actor. They are not. Hamas is a terrorist organization and the present hostilities will not end until Hamas is gone. Hopefully they stop taking innocent people with them.
The answers? No, the context is. That context being setter colonialism, occupation, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid. This isn't a chicken and egg scenario. No ancestral claim to any land justifies ethnic cleansing of the native population living on that land.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1947-49 was deliberate, the concept of Transfer is fundamental to zionism. It didn't matter that the Palestinian leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State.
Gaza has been under occupation, Hamas has been internally governing Gaza since 2007, under the Blockade occupation of Israel. Hamas is a resistance movement that has done acts of terrorism, yes. That doesn't change the fact that Hamas and other Armed resistance groups are the only ones fighting back against the Israeli occupation, a right which they have under international law. That doesn't exempt them from war crimes, which is why you see Human Rights Orgs report on them when committed.
Resistance movements only get bigger as the oppression worsens, like it is now in both the West Bank and much more so in Gaza.
What do you know about what it's like to live under Israeli occupation? If you don't understand that, you'll never understand why people choose to violently resist the occupation.
They expect everyone else to fix what they broke and protect them, while they mouth the hands that feed.
How long would they last without big daddy USA?
Okay then who?
Who what?
Edit: Nvm, I thought this was another conversation.
Israel should pay obviously.
They broke, they pay.
Okay we agree on that. You break it you buy it, as solid rationale as any. I think they not only pay but also have to administer the reconstruction, and that in addition to the work of rebuilding Gaza's physical structures and infrastructure, Israel must rebuild the institutions of Gaza, free of Hamas corruption and Iranian influence.
And Israeli influence
That's fantasy land talk. Laughable really.
Why?
Mainly geography. But also nobody else cares enough about Gaza to spend the time and money. The people that live there have no infrastructure or institutions in place to rebuild, let alone the materials and labor to do the work. Leaving Gaza to fix itself it not an option. Like where would Gaza even get the machinery or lumber if not from Israel?
Hamas's international benefactors only give money if Hamas is fielding fighters and killing Jews. If Hamas is gone, Gaza is just another failed-state, thrid-world hell hole with no natural resources.
I'm not bursting this bubble for you right? Like where do you think this goes from here? Talking about, either a fully militarized border across which nothing travels and the famine everyone is concerned about comes to fruition and the death toll goes from 30,000 to 300,000, which nobody with any say in the matter wants, or Israel takes full control of Gaza for at least some period of time, maybe forever.
Right now Gaza is a warzone. When that is no longer true, it will at least remain under martial law while as the last pockets of Hamas resistance are rooted out and the last tunnels collapsed. It's up to Hamas whether that takes one year or ten years. Hamas is in charge of Gaza and they do not follow any international laws or social norms. They will absolutely not be given a country to do whatever they please.
So because Israel destroyed it they get to pay to fix it, there can be an international coalition that can oversee the funds and the rebuilding.
Israel gets no fucking say at all about it.
Put up a 1km border zone encased on every side with fucking concrete and fill the whole son of a bitch with land mines with remote control machine guns with the only maintenance access on the Israeli side.
Kill anything inside, with solid walls there is no way for innocents to get in accidentally.
Take .5km from each side.
Fucking problem solved.
Let them try hang gliding over that and surviving
Ha. That's amusing dystopian fiction maybe but not a real suggestion for peace, is it?
The whole reason they are fighting so viciously is because they can't agree on the operating hours and zoning regulations of various piles of rocks, way out in the desert, where people go to talk to themselves after they get tired of talking to themselves at home, so they go on a bad vacation and talk to themselves near the actual piles of rocks from their favorite book series, and you want to bury any of the rocks in a kilometer of concrete? That sounds like an obstacle to the rocks and therefore an obstacle to the peace.
🤷
No, the walls are only about 10 foot thick. The rest is land mines
Why wait and see when you can just take their word at face value? They won't.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-calls-voluntary-emigration-gazans-2023-11-14/
Yeah and it shouldn't. Gaza is a lawless place. There is no legitimate government there. Somebody has to rebuild it. Who's going to do it?
Palestinians?
The hubris and condescension from you people. Maniacal.
By what? By who? Hamas is the de facto leadership in Gaza. It was popularly elected, and then popularly canceled all future elections. More than half the world recognizes it as a terrorist organization. It will not have its own state. Not now, not ever.
Hamas has also proven that it does not care one iota about Palestinian people or it wouldn't have built their tunnels under people's houses, and it would surrender and end this bloodshed.
Maybe one day the US cancels elections, then I guess it would be okay to blow you, your parents, your children, and your dog into oblivion. You probably voted for this, so you deserve to die with no dignity under piles of rubble and pain.
You can't imagine how ashamed of yourself you will be when you realize what kind of genocide you were cheering for all day and night.
Gaza is under control by Israel's Blockade
I disagree with the conclusions of this pro Hamas nonsense. You have all the evidence right there.
Ya know stoning "infidels," assassinating Palestinians who want peace, cancelling all future elections. Nobody is going to miss Hamas when it is killed to the man. It's a far right Islamist terrorist group and part of the much large pan Islamist movement whose motto is "death to America and death to Israel." The singular difference between Hamas and ISIS is that they disagree as to who should be in charge of the world, Iran, the Syrian caliphate, or a new caliphate in the Levant after they literally genocide all the Jews.
And don't bring Egypt into this.
Food goes through. The mass starvation everyone has been warning of for five months hasn't happened. The daily death toll is dropping like a stone.
may sound authoritative and conclusive to you but I went to school with some of these people and know how shitty they are with facts and reasoning when they get emotional, which is what Hamas counts on. They should surrender. Period.
There won't be a lasting ceasefire until it stops fighting and by fighting I of course mean targeting Jewish civilians and using Gaza and everyone in it as its personal suit of armor.
All this shit you have to say about the evil Jewish empire is only to say that Israel must stop defending itself. That's why for all your links you cannot give a rational explanation for Hamas's plan on October 7 that didn't end in a massive civilian death toll. 30,000 is awful but Hamas decided with the consent of Gaza to put every one of them in harms way and then rolled the dice with their lives.
I love reading this BS. Hamas sucks but they don't stone people. Why do you feel the need to make shit up?
If you stopped constantly dehumanizing palestinians for a second, maybe you'd recognize Hamas began due to the terrible material conditions of Occupation, and has the goal of ending the occupation. Maybe you'd even recognize collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Hamas is very different from ISIS, but they both were born out of Terrorism from Israel and the US respectively. Hamas wants an end to the Apartheid, not genocide. That claim is both untrue, and holds no weight when Israel is currently engaging in genocide. This is about the state of Israel being founded on ethnic cleansing and it's most recent ethnic cleansing campaign. Not Jewish people, stop being antisemitic by thinking they're the same.
People Claim a Majority of Palestinians in Gaza Elected Hamas — Here's Why It Isn't That Simple
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
Hamas was born out of pan Islamism. Israel didn't invent it. It's hundreds of years old.
Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism were both movements born out of anti-colonialism and opposed western political involvement, but they are not the same and have different history. There is no monolith in the middle east. Neither a Muslim nor an Arab Monolith. If you think all Muslims or all Arab people think the same you're just being racist.
Hamas, while associated with the Muslim Brotherhood in the past, is not the same as the Muslim Brotherhood.
Again with the link spam of things I already know.
I don't think that all violent Islamist extremists are the same. I think they are substantially the same, not distinguishable in meaningful ways. As I said, the only difference is who gets to be the caliphate. For example, while ISIS and Hamas leadership are formally at war, Hamas just can't stop getting its fighters to join ISIS, too.
That's the thing, the links I provide are to show exactly what you're getting wrong.
Th really don't though. You're drawing your conclusions from the facts and I think your conclusions are shallow and poorly reasoned, and I think that you often cite to other people who draw the same conclusions as you because it makes you feel good.
We don't have to agree it's fine. I can still respect you. You're disgusted by 30,000 deaths, mostly innocent civilians; you're probably a very decent and justice-minded person, instincts that must serve you well. They are my instincts too, and serve me well.
I'm not interested in the chicken or the egg debate. though because it's not relevant to the next hundred years. I'm interested in not having a hot war with Iran and not having the worlds dictatorships laughing while they wipe democracies off the map, which is what happens if Hamas gets its way. Start there.
Obviously Hamas is not going to get its way. Its outmatched in every sense except it's martyrous zeal, and your instinct is what they count on as their only path to continued existence.
Again I ask, what did they think would be the result of October 7?
Advocating for a One-State or Two-State Solution is not "wiping a Democracy off the map," it's advocating for Palestinian people to have basic human and civil rights. If you think that Israel committing Apartheid or ethnic cleansing are 'shallow and poorly reasoned conclusions' then you haven't taken a look at the facts. This has nothing to do with instincts, it has to do with media literacy. That's why as a serious source to learn more about the conflict, I point to Ilan Pappe or Avi Shlaim or Nur Masalha. They are magnitudes more knowledgeable about the history of Israel-Palestine.
We can find quickly in the wiki:
The answers to this conflict are not in the history. I don't care who came first, the chicken or the egg. Besides, if you dig deep enough, the oldest artifacts and recorded history in the entire region are Judiac.
Hamas is in charge of Gaza. The thing preventing Gaza from having what it needs is Hamas. They can't follow zero international laws and norms whatsoever and expect to be treated like a legitimate state actor. They are not. Hamas is a terrorist organization and the present hostilities will not end until Hamas is gone. Hopefully they stop taking innocent people with them.
The answers? No, the context is. That context being setter colonialism, occupation, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid. This isn't a chicken and egg scenario. No ancestral claim to any land justifies ethnic cleansing of the native population living on that land.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1947-49 was deliberate, the concept of Transfer is fundamental to zionism. It didn't matter that the Palestinian leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State.
The Israeli occupation of the rest of historical Palestine in 1967 was deliberate. For half a century, Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip has resulted in systematic human rights violations against Palestinians living there. with the goal of further annexation while excluding Palestinians.
Gaza has been under occupation, Hamas has been internally governing Gaza since 2007, under the Blockade occupation of Israel. Hamas is a resistance movement that has done acts of terrorism, yes. That doesn't change the fact that Hamas and other Armed resistance groups are the only ones fighting back against the Israeli occupation, a right which they have under international law. That doesn't exempt them from war crimes, which is why you see Human Rights Orgs report on them when committed.
Resistance movements only get bigger as the oppression worsens, like it is now in both the West Bank and much more so in Gaza.
What do you know about what it's like to live under Israeli occupation? If you don't understand that, you'll never understand why people choose to violently resist the occupation.
Not the fucking Israelis.
They expect everyone else to fix what they broke and protect them, while they mouth the hands that feed.
How long would they last without big daddy USA?
Okay then who?
Who what?
Edit: Nvm, I thought this was another conversation.
Israel should pay obviously.
They broke, they pay.
Okay we agree on that. You break it you buy it, as solid rationale as any. I think they not only pay but also have to administer the reconstruction, and that in addition to the work of rebuilding Gaza's physical structures and infrastructure, Israel must rebuild the institutions of Gaza, free of Hamas corruption and Iranian influence.
And Israeli influence
That's fantasy land talk. Laughable really.
Why?
Mainly geography. But also nobody else cares enough about Gaza to spend the time and money. The people that live there have no infrastructure or institutions in place to rebuild, let alone the materials and labor to do the work. Leaving Gaza to fix itself it not an option. Like where would Gaza even get the machinery or lumber if not from Israel?
Hamas's international benefactors only give money if Hamas is fielding fighters and killing Jews. If Hamas is gone, Gaza is just another failed-state, thrid-world hell hole with no natural resources.
I'm not bursting this bubble for you right? Like where do you think this goes from here? Talking about, either a fully militarized border across which nothing travels and the famine everyone is concerned about comes to fruition and the death toll goes from 30,000 to 300,000, which nobody with any say in the matter wants, or Israel takes full control of Gaza for at least some period of time, maybe forever.
Right now Gaza is a warzone. When that is no longer true, it will at least remain under martial law while as the last pockets of Hamas resistance are rooted out and the last tunnels collapsed. It's up to Hamas whether that takes one year or ten years. Hamas is in charge of Gaza and they do not follow any international laws or social norms. They will absolutely not be given a country to do whatever they please.
So because Israel destroyed it they get to pay to fix it, there can be an international coalition that can oversee the funds and the rebuilding.
Israel gets no fucking say at all about it.
Put up a 1km border zone encased on every side with fucking concrete and fill the whole son of a bitch with land mines with remote control machine guns with the only maintenance access on the Israeli side.
Kill anything inside, with solid walls there is no way for innocents to get in accidentally.
Take .5km from each side.
Fucking problem solved.
Let them try hang gliding over that and surviving
Ha. That's amusing dystopian fiction maybe but not a real suggestion for peace, is it?
The whole reason they are fighting so viciously is because they can't agree on the operating hours and zoning regulations of various piles of rocks, way out in the desert, where people go to talk to themselves after they get tired of talking to themselves at home, so they go on a bad vacation and talk to themselves near the actual piles of rocks from their favorite book series, and you want to bury any of the rocks in a kilometer of concrete? That sounds like an obstacle to the rocks and therefore an obstacle to the peace.
🤷
No, the walls are only about 10 foot thick. The rest is land mines