Oh yes, Thor is oiled up and shirtless while Natalie Portman ogles him for the entire first movie because... It looks powerful? It represents his stoicism? Definitely not a sexual objectification thing, oh no sir
Tbf you can be ogled and not objectified. The difference is that Thor absolutely is portrayed as a complex character with his own agency, or subjectivity. The whole movie is about him learning to step out of the role of warmonger and into a more mature, nurturing role of a king. That gives him a lot of subjectivity - the opposite of objectivity
Edit: So to clarify, yes Thor is part of a series of unrealistic body standards for men. But he's not objectified
In social philosophy, objectification is the act of treating a person as an object or a thing. It is part of dehumanization, the act of disavowing the humanity of others. Sexual objectification, the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire, is a subset of objectification,
Emphasis mine. Where in "Thor" is Thor dehumanized? Do the creators of the movie dehumanize him? No, if anything he exhibits more humanity as the movie goes on. Does Jane Foster dehumanize him? No, she's clearly sexually attracted to him and some scenes do focus on his body, but that's not enough to dehumanize someone. He is not a "mere object of sexual desire" because those scenes exist amid an entire movie that treats Thor with respect as a character, including Jane who gets to know him and love him. The only character who dehumanizes him could be Loki but he's clearly portrayed as being wrong
Tbf you can be ogled and not objectified
I gotta get me some of that copium, looks like the good stuff.
Or, like, learn what objectification actually means (and "cope" for that matter, what am I coping about? I'm just having an internet discussion)
The difference is that Thor absolutely is portrayed as a complex character with his own agency, or subjectivity.
So is Black Widow, but she is 100% leathered up sex symbol too and no one questions that.
Sex symbol =/= objectified. There's nothing wrong with being a sexy character. Sexual objectification is the reduction of a person or character to nothing but sex. Or, if you want a more accurate definition, you can look at Wikipedia's definition which I gave somewhere else
Tbf you can be ogled and not objectified. The difference is that Thor absolutely is portrayed as a complex character with his own agency, or subjectivity.
By that definition, no female main character of a film ever has been objectified.
I think what the commenter is trying to say is that male characters tend to have more to their overall presence in movies than just their body since they are generally the protagonists, but female characters are often only there to show their bodies and have very little character depth in comparison.
Though, granted, that commenter probably has horrible taste in movies if this observation is so starkly visible to them.
No there are plenty of female characters who are portrayed as two-dimensional sex objects, just like there are male characters who are portrayed the same. But Thor is not one of them. And the existence of sex appeal around a character =/= objectification
No there are plenty of female characters who are portrayed as two-dimensional sex objects
But none of them were their film's main characters, right? I mean, by definition if the character has agency and complexity to them, they're not being objectified, and basically every main character has some degree of agency and complexity. Can you give me an example of a female film lead who is objectified by the definition you've provided here?
It's not really to do with whether they're the protagonist, it's how they're treated as a character (and by extension the actor). Off the top of my head the best example is Carly from Transformers 3. She's incredibly 2-dimensional. What do we know about her, her motivations, what drives her? Well, not a lot. At best you could argue she has a good job and is responsible for getting Megatron to help OP. But when we look at the movie overall it's not great. She's consistently needing saved by Sam, the film goes to lengths to focus on her borderline inappropriate relationship with her male boss, and she just doesn't do a lot for the plot that doesn't serve some male. In fact, her introduction, arguably the most important scene for establishing her character, is a camera shot of her ass. That's objectification because the character exists amid a web of weak characterization and conformity to gender roles that treat her more like a trophy than a proper character
Carly was not the main character of that film, Sam was. I really think you're missing my point. You've defined objectification in such a way that no lead character could ever be said to be objectified. So, if you're going to use that definition to claim that Thor isn't objectified, you must agree that no female protagonist can claim to be objectified to be consistent with your own definition.
Can you find me an example of a man who serves a similar role to Carly? Find me an example of a male character who is not the protagonist who is there solely to be attractive.
Because if you're honest you'll have to agree that it is orders of magnitude more common for women to be shown that way than for men.
If you're looking for supporting male characters who are objectified in the same way supporting female characters are, then yes, that would be hard to find. But that's because men aren't sexually objectified in the same way women are, because the criteria for sexual objectification for women are different than those for men. How many romantic comedies have you seen wherein the male love interest does fulfill the role of the "strong man" by being protective of the female lead, but also is cast as submissive to her in other contexts, whether by losing arguments to her, being the butt of her jokes, or changing in the stereotypical way women like to think they can change men (e.g. taming the "bad boy"). That's how men tend to be objectified in films marketed to women, because women's sexual appetites are different than those of men.
That's not objectification. That's not reducing men to a literal object for women's desires. It's a false equivalence. Men are shown to be people in all of the contexts you just listed. In fact you'd be hard pressed to find a romantic comedy where the man isn't a character in their own right. Same goes for dramas. They definitely exist but they're a vast minority.
That’s not reducing men to a literal object for women’s desires.
Yes it is, just not the same exact type of object that women are rendered as when objectified for men.
Men are shown to be people in all of the contexts you just listed.
So are a lot of female protagonists that have clearly been objectified for male sexual appetites. Lara Croft, Wonder Woman, a host of female leads in Anime. These are not mutually exclusive things.
But look, if disagree with that and think objectification only counts when it's done in the extreme fashion you describe, I think we should just agree to disagree, because I don't think further discussion is going to get us anywhere. I've seen this term used throughout my life and those instances do not fit with what you're saying; you'd have to provide an enormously compelling argument to get me to reevaluate my entire life's experience with this concept.
I haven't defined anything, I'm going by the definition of objectification. The example I gave was Wikipedia's definition. Main characters can absolutely be objectified if written poorly. Because an objectified character is, by definition, written poorly. It has nothing to do with being the main character. It's the literal definition of objectification. Idk why you're on about main characters because that's irrelevant
I don't disagree with the definition you quoted, I disagree with how you've applied it. As I said in my first comment:
Tbf you can be ogled and not objectified. The difference is that Thor absolutely is portrayed as a complex character with his own agency, or subjectivity.
By that definition, no female main character of a film ever has been objectified.
Having agency is not mutually exclusive with being dehumanized, sexualized, objectified, etc. The fact that Thor is shown in a great light throughout much of his films doesn't change the fact that he is regularly sexually objectified as well. Wonder Woman was objectified from the start, but that didn't stop her from also kicking ass. Lara Croft, Charlie's Angels, Sailor Moon. If you're going to claim that having agency means a character can't be objectified, you have to deny that all of those female protagonists were objectified. That's not in line with my understanding of both that quote you cited and the way I've seen the term used throughout my life. I think your emphasis on the word "mere" in the definition you quoted is misplaced. I don't think the quote's author meant it as literally as you seem to be taking it.
So you think that a single scene portraying a character in a sexual light is sexual objectification?
Edit: Also, if you don't like the way I've worded the definition of objectification you can look at American philosopher Martha Nusbaum's:
Instrumentality – treating the person as a tool for another's purposes
Denial of autonomy – treating the person as lacking in autonomy or self-determination
Inertness – treating the person as lacking in agency or activity
Fungibility – treating the person as interchangeable with (other) objects
Violability – treating the person as lacking in boundary integrity and violable, "as something that it is permissible to break up, smash, break into."
Ownership – treating the person as though they can be owned, bought, or sold (such as slavery)
Denial of subjectivity – treating the person as though there is no need for concern for their experiences or feelings
So you think that a single scene portraying a character in a sexual light is sexual objectification?
Yes, absolutely. In that scene, the character is being objectified. Who said a character needs to be objectified throughout an entire film without ever getting more nuanced treatment to be called "a character who has been objectified?" All of the definitions you've just taken the time to look up and type out fit with my understanding of what objectification is, I just don't understand why you seem to be requiring these characters to be in a constant state of objectification to receive the label, when it's patently obvious objectification can be done at some times and not others. Again, if you're going to make that a criteria, then plenty of female leads who were clearly objectified, aren't in your opinion, simply because they also agency, power, complexity, etc, in other moments.
you seem to be requiring these characters to be in a constant state of objectification to receive the label
I'm not. It's about context. To treat objectification as some binary completely misses the point of objectification in the first place. As a facet of social philosophy, the idea has merit due to its context within culture and within the context of the media itself. Even if I agreed that a single sexual scene is objectifying (I don't) it would merely be in a semantic sense when (in the example of Thor) throughout the entire movie he is a multifaceted character who is clearly treated with respect by the creators.
Agency and subjectivity, in concerns to objectification, are so important because they're the whole point. When we assume the incredibly reductive definition of objectification as merely being acknowledged or treated as a sexual being we rob others of their ability to choose to embrace their sexuality. Thereby that definition of objectification is in itself objectifying.
Are you objectifying your partner by checking them out when they're unclothed? Are you objectifying your partner by having sex with them? Most likely not. How do I know? Because, presumably, your partner is exercising enthusiastic consent - they are exercising their subjectivity and agency within context of a healthy and respectful relationship.
To suggest a single scene fits a semantic definition of objectification ‐ as someone who had to study this stuff in university - completely misses the point of why objectification matters
Edit: you also seem to be relying on your past experience with this term for your understanding of it. I would advise against that. Many many many groups of people completely miss the point or misrepresent objectification
La Femme Nikita
Haven't seen that particular film, but is the female lead shown to be powerful? Does she have agency? I would presume she does. Is there some complexity to her character (e.g. she has to resolve some sort of inner turmoil during the film)? My point is the these criteria (which DudePluto put forward, not me) preclude such characters from being objectified. I don't agree with that. As I understand objectification, characters like the lead in La Femme Nikita can be sexually objectified, even though they have agency and complexity to them. My point is that DudePlato's claims about how objectification works preclude many examples of female leads that have been argued to have been objectified in the past.
Oh yes, Thor is oiled up and shirtless while Natalie Portman ogles him for the entire first movie because... It looks powerful? It represents his stoicism? Definitely not a sexual objectification thing, oh no sir
Tbf you can be ogled and not objectified. The difference is that Thor absolutely is portrayed as a complex character with his own agency, or subjectivity. The whole movie is about him learning to step out of the role of warmonger and into a more mature, nurturing role of a king. That gives him a lot of subjectivity - the opposite of objectivity
Edit: So to clarify, yes Thor is part of a series of unrealistic body standards for men. But he's not objectified
Emphasis mine. Where in "Thor" is Thor dehumanized? Do the creators of the movie dehumanize him? No, if anything he exhibits more humanity as the movie goes on. Does Jane Foster dehumanize him? No, she's clearly sexually attracted to him and some scenes do focus on his body, but that's not enough to dehumanize someone. He is not a "mere object of sexual desire" because those scenes exist amid an entire movie that treats Thor with respect as a character, including Jane who gets to know him and love him. The only character who dehumanizes him could be Loki but he's clearly portrayed as being wrong
I gotta get me some of that copium, looks like the good stuff.
Or, like, learn what objectification actually means (and "cope" for that matter, what am I coping about? I'm just having an internet discussion)
So is Black Widow, but she is 100% leathered up sex symbol too and no one questions that.
Sex symbol =/= objectified. There's nothing wrong with being a sexy character. Sexual objectification is the reduction of a person or character to nothing but sex. Or, if you want a more accurate definition, you can look at Wikipedia's definition which I gave somewhere else
By that definition, no female main character of a film ever has been objectified.
I think what the commenter is trying to say is that male characters tend to have more to their overall presence in movies than just their body since they are generally the protagonists, but female characters are often only there to show their bodies and have very little character depth in comparison.
Though, granted, that commenter probably has horrible taste in movies if this observation is so starkly visible to them.
No there are plenty of female characters who are portrayed as two-dimensional sex objects, just like there are male characters who are portrayed the same. But Thor is not one of them. And the existence of sex appeal around a character =/= objectification
But none of them were their film's main characters, right? I mean, by definition if the character has agency and complexity to them, they're not being objectified, and basically every main character has some degree of agency and complexity. Can you give me an example of a female film lead who is objectified by the definition you've provided here?
It's not really to do with whether they're the protagonist, it's how they're treated as a character (and by extension the actor). Off the top of my head the best example is Carly from Transformers 3. She's incredibly 2-dimensional. What do we know about her, her motivations, what drives her? Well, not a lot. At best you could argue she has a good job and is responsible for getting Megatron to help OP. But when we look at the movie overall it's not great. She's consistently needing saved by Sam, the film goes to lengths to focus on her borderline inappropriate relationship with her male boss, and she just doesn't do a lot for the plot that doesn't serve some male. In fact, her introduction, arguably the most important scene for establishing her character, is a camera shot of her ass. That's objectification because the character exists amid a web of weak characterization and conformity to gender roles that treat her more like a trophy than a proper character
Carly was not the main character of that film, Sam was. I really think you're missing my point. You've defined objectification in such a way that no lead character could ever be said to be objectified. So, if you're going to use that definition to claim that Thor isn't objectified, you must agree that no female protagonist can claim to be objectified to be consistent with your own definition.
Can you find me an example of a man who serves a similar role to Carly? Find me an example of a male character who is not the protagonist who is there solely to be attractive.
Because if you're honest you'll have to agree that it is orders of magnitude more common for women to be shown that way than for men.
If you're looking for supporting male characters who are objectified in the same way supporting female characters are, then yes, that would be hard to find. But that's because men aren't sexually objectified in the same way women are, because the criteria for sexual objectification for women are different than those for men. How many romantic comedies have you seen wherein the male love interest does fulfill the role of the "strong man" by being protective of the female lead, but also is cast as submissive to her in other contexts, whether by losing arguments to her, being the butt of her jokes, or changing in the stereotypical way women like to think they can change men (e.g. taming the "bad boy"). That's how men tend to be objectified in films marketed to women, because women's sexual appetites are different than those of men.
That's not objectification. That's not reducing men to a literal object for women's desires. It's a false equivalence. Men are shown to be people in all of the contexts you just listed. In fact you'd be hard pressed to find a romantic comedy where the man isn't a character in their own right. Same goes for dramas. They definitely exist but they're a vast minority.
Yes it is, just not the same exact type of object that women are rendered as when objectified for men.
So are a lot of female protagonists that have clearly been objectified for male sexual appetites. Lara Croft, Wonder Woman, a host of female leads in Anime. These are not mutually exclusive things.
But look, if disagree with that and think objectification only counts when it's done in the extreme fashion you describe, I think we should just agree to disagree, because I don't think further discussion is going to get us anywhere. I've seen this term used throughout my life and those instances do not fit with what you're saying; you'd have to provide an enormously compelling argument to get me to reevaluate my entire life's experience with this concept.
I haven't defined anything, I'm going by the definition of objectification. The example I gave was Wikipedia's definition. Main characters can absolutely be objectified if written poorly. Because an objectified character is, by definition, written poorly. It has nothing to do with being the main character. It's the literal definition of objectification. Idk why you're on about main characters because that's irrelevant
I don't disagree with the definition you quoted, I disagree with how you've applied it. As I said in my first comment:
Having agency is not mutually exclusive with being dehumanized, sexualized, objectified, etc. The fact that Thor is shown in a great light throughout much of his films doesn't change the fact that he is regularly sexually objectified as well. Wonder Woman was objectified from the start, but that didn't stop her from also kicking ass. Lara Croft, Charlie's Angels, Sailor Moon. If you're going to claim that having agency means a character can't be objectified, you have to deny that all of those female protagonists were objectified. That's not in line with my understanding of both that quote you cited and the way I've seen the term used throughout my life. I think your emphasis on the word "mere" in the definition you quoted is misplaced. I don't think the quote's author meant it as literally as you seem to be taking it.
So you think that a single scene portraying a character in a sexual light is sexual objectification?
Edit: Also, if you don't like the way I've worded the definition of objectification you can look at American philosopher Martha Nusbaum's:
Instrumentality – treating the person as a tool for another's purposes
Denial of autonomy – treating the person as lacking in autonomy or self-determination
Inertness – treating the person as lacking in agency or activity
Fungibility – treating the person as interchangeable with (other) objects
Violability – treating the person as lacking in boundary integrity and violable, "as something that it is permissible to break up, smash, break into."
Ownership – treating the person as though they can be owned, bought, or sold (such as slavery)
Denial of subjectivity – treating the person as though there is no need for concern for their experiences or feelings
Yes, absolutely. In that scene, the character is being objectified. Who said a character needs to be objectified throughout an entire film without ever getting more nuanced treatment to be called "a character who has been objectified?" All of the definitions you've just taken the time to look up and type out fit with my understanding of what objectification is, I just don't understand why you seem to be requiring these characters to be in a constant state of objectification to receive the label, when it's patently obvious objectification can be done at some times and not others. Again, if you're going to make that a criteria, then plenty of female leads who were clearly objectified, aren't in your opinion, simply because they also agency, power, complexity, etc, in other moments.
I'm not. It's about context. To treat objectification as some binary completely misses the point of objectification in the first place. As a facet of social philosophy, the idea has merit due to its context within culture and within the context of the media itself. Even if I agreed that a single sexual scene is objectifying (I don't) it would merely be in a semantic sense when (in the example of Thor) throughout the entire movie he is a multifaceted character who is clearly treated with respect by the creators.
Agency and subjectivity, in concerns to objectification, are so important because they're the whole point. When we assume the incredibly reductive definition of objectification as merely being acknowledged or treated as a sexual being we rob others of their ability to choose to embrace their sexuality. Thereby that definition of objectification is in itself objectifying.
Are you objectifying your partner by checking them out when they're unclothed? Are you objectifying your partner by having sex with them? Most likely not. How do I know? Because, presumably, your partner is exercising enthusiastic consent - they are exercising their subjectivity and agency within context of a healthy and respectful relationship.
To suggest a single scene fits a semantic definition of objectification ‐ as someone who had to study this stuff in university - completely misses the point of why objectification matters
Edit: you also seem to be relying on your past experience with this term for your understanding of it. I would advise against that. Many many many groups of people completely miss the point or misrepresent objectification
La Femme Nikita
Haven't seen that particular film, but is the female lead shown to be powerful? Does she have agency? I would presume she does. Is there some complexity to her character (e.g. she has to resolve some sort of inner turmoil during the film)? My point is the these criteria (which DudePluto put forward, not me) preclude such characters from being objectified. I don't agree with that. As I understand objectification, characters like the lead in La Femme Nikita can be sexually objectified, even though they have agency and complexity to them. My point is that DudePlato's claims about how objectification works preclude many examples of female leads that have been argued to have been objectified in the past.