By that definition Israel is failing to meet its military goal. Killing SO MANY innocent civilians would be considered a military failure by any other western county.
Unless the goal is collective punishment and not proportional warfare.
Yup, a total failure. They're currently at -2. They've rescued no hostages and killed two "by accident". The only time Israel got hostages was when the military was put on a leash during a ceasefire and they traded some of their own Palestinian hostages.
Israel does not keep or have Palestinian hostages.
You are trying to establish a moral equivalence between kidnapping civilians from their homes and arresting suspected or convicted criminals. They are not the same thing and equating them only muddies the waters on the real underlying issues.
Israel has thousands of Palestinians in "administrative detention" that have not been accused of any crimes. Using a fancy word doesn't make them not hostages. You are right that falsely imprisoning thousands of people over a long period of time as part of a standing policy of oppression is not the same as having 50 one time hostages. It's way worse.
Dozens, maybe as many as 100. There were only about 200 taken to begin with. Hamas gave back more than a third, and Israel has murdered at least several, that we know of. So sure, bicker about that number and give no fucks about the THOUSANDS of hostages Israel is keeping with no plans to release.
Lmao, no. Holding people without charges is kidnapping them and that's the best interpretation. The words State Sponsored Terrorism exist for a reason.
This is exactly what I mean by muddying the waters. Israel clearly has an extremely damaged criminal justice system, but those underlying systems are not going to be addressed as long as the world refuses to acknowledge them.
When you have activists who only understand half the story decrying Palestinian "hostages," they draw focus away from where it's needed. Israel needs serious criminal justice reform, but that is now than ever from happening.
I have an idea about how they could start, stop detaining people for no reason and holding them for years without charge.
Okay, so now you are beginning to clarify instead of obfuscate.
You've identified a problem with policing; unjust detainment. That's something that deserves attention. You can donate here to help.
I'm sorry but they've had time to reform that. What needs to happen now is the release of all Israeli held hostages.
would be considered a military failure by any other western county.
I disagree, but at least you are understanding the correct meaning of proportionality and we can have a discussion.
What about my statement do you disagree with?
While it is impossible to have an accurate count, the best estimates are that about 1/3 of those killed have been combatants. The UN estimates 90% civilian casualties across all wars. The Iraq war was similar in that it involved urban, embedded terror groups and modern technology. The civilian casualty ratio was 77%. This war is in line with other conflicts of the past 50 years.
It is still a terrible tragedy. War is always a tragedy.
50 years is a long time, improved technology should reduce civilian casualties not keep them in line.
Iraq was a military failure, Israel's assault on Gaza is a military failure, and the world needs to recognize it.
True. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we have yet seen what a military success looks like in the Middle East.
Leaving the middle east, as politically caustic as the idea may be, its the only viable path to military success in the region.
The Iraq war was fought against a standing military. The follow-on counter insurgency was far less lethal to civilians. Call us when Hamas is running T-80 Tank Divisions.
By that definition Israel is failing to meet its military goal. Killing SO MANY innocent civilians would be considered a military failure by any other western county.
Unless the goal is collective punishment and not proportional warfare.
Yup, a total failure. They're currently at -2. They've rescued no hostages and killed two "by accident". The only time Israel got hostages was when the military was put on a leash during a ceasefire and they traded some of their own Palestinian hostages.
Israel does not keep or have Palestinian hostages.
You are trying to establish a moral equivalence between kidnapping civilians from their homes and arresting suspected or convicted criminals. They are not the same thing and equating them only muddies the waters on the real underlying issues.
Israel has thousands of Palestinians in "administrative detention" that have not been accused of any crimes. Using a fancy word doesn't make them not hostages. You are right that falsely imprisoning thousands of people over a long period of time as part of a standing policy of oppression is not the same as having 50 one time hostages. It's way worse.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap
50?
Dozens, maybe as many as 100. There were only about 200 taken to begin with. Hamas gave back more than a third, and Israel has murdered at least several, that we know of. So sure, bicker about that number and give no fucks about the THOUSANDS of hostages Israel is keeping with no plans to release.
Lmao, no. Holding people without charges is kidnapping them and that's the best interpretation. The words State Sponsored Terrorism exist for a reason.
This is exactly what I mean by muddying the waters. Israel clearly has an extremely damaged criminal justice system, but those underlying systems are not going to be addressed as long as the world refuses to acknowledge them.
When you have activists who only understand half the story decrying Palestinian "hostages," they draw focus away from where it's needed. Israel needs serious criminal justice reform, but that is now than ever from happening.
I have an idea about how they could start, stop detaining people for no reason and holding them for years without charge.
Okay, so now you are beginning to clarify instead of obfuscate.
You've identified a problem with policing; unjust detainment. That's something that deserves attention. You can donate here to help.
I'm sorry but they've had time to reform that. What needs to happen now is the release of all Israeli held hostages.
I doubt it.
Western countries understand that ninety percent of war-time casualties are civilians.
Is your argument that the UN considered 90% civilian casualties as a successful mission?
No, my argument is that Western armies consider that the expected casualty rate for wartime.
The UN prefers zero casualties, and also zero war. But Western armies rarely live up to UN ideals.
Argument made by an antisemitic genocide justifier.
Nazis are in vogue again.
I disagree, but at least you are understanding the correct meaning of proportionality and we can have a discussion.
What about my statement do you disagree with?
While it is impossible to have an accurate count, the best estimates are that about 1/3 of those killed have been combatants. The UN estimates 90% civilian casualties across all wars. The Iraq war was similar in that it involved urban, embedded terror groups and modern technology. The civilian casualty ratio was 77%. This war is in line with other conflicts of the past 50 years.
It is still a terrible tragedy. War is always a tragedy.
50 years is a long time, improved technology should reduce civilian casualties not keep them in line.
Iraq was a military failure, Israel's assault on Gaza is a military failure, and the world needs to recognize it.
True. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we have yet seen what a military success looks like in the Middle East.
Leaving the middle east, as politically caustic as the idea may be, its the only viable path to military success in the region.
The Iraq war was fought against a standing military. The follow-on counter insurgency was far less lethal to civilians. Call us when Hamas is running T-80 Tank Divisions.