Yeah it bothers me so much that ppl don't realize how the legal process works. If merchan makes any mistakes, his decision will get overturned. I want trump convicted and I want him to be unable to change that.
To be fair, he was supposed to put up over $400 million to prevent asset forfeiture with a hard deadline. He ended up posting bond for about a quarter of that, nearly a month after the deadline with no consequences.
A lot of people are rightfully skeptical that he'll never face consequences for his illegal acts.
Yeah it bothers me so much that ppl don’t realize how the legal process works.
I want the legal system to work the same for Trump as it would for me. Is that so much to ask? How many times do you suppose I could defy the court before ending up with either 1) a fine that was sizable enough to actually matter to me or 2) jail time?
The law in NY defines how much the fines are and how long someone could be held in jail. It would be illegal for the judge to issue a fine larger than what he's been issuing, which would give Trump a reason to go to a higher court to seek Merchan's removal, or at the very least delay the case
The law in NY defines how much the fines are
So like all fines, they are only a punishment for the poor and middle class.
and how long someone could be held in jail.
Sweet, how long is that, and how many times does he have to fuck up before he ends up there for contempt the way I would?
Edit - pretty sure it's X + 1 times, where X is always however many times he's fucked up to date.
I understand you feel angry, but Merchan has been clear with Trump that jail is on the table moving forward, and I completely respect him not jumping the gun and throwing Trump in jail on a whim. By giving Trump ample opportunities to correct his behavior with warnings of jail time for future violations, he's setting it up so Trump's legal team will have no basis to argue Trump didn't deserve this when they try to remove Merchan from the case or try to appeal
I understand that but - is jail time not always on the table when you repeatedly ignore orders from a judge in their own courtroom? Does it need to be TEN TIMES to qualify for not jumping the gun? And do you really believe that "next time" he will get jail? (I do not.)
Meh.
2 legal systems. That's what's on display here. Whether there is justification or not. I don't fault you for accepting the justification, but this is proof there is one system for the rest of us (which will chew us up and derail our lives over relatively minor infractions), and one system for folks like Trump. (who will die of old age living a 1% lifestyle without ever going to jail, IMO.)
My frustration is not directed at you, you are just the unfortunate recipient.
is jail time not always on the table when you repeatedly ignore orders from a judge in their own courtroom?
Yes. That's how NY law on this works.
The thing that needs to be fixed here is that the initial fine isn't scaled to the offender's networth.
is jail time not always on the table when you repeatedly ignore orders from a judge in their own courtroom?
Yes. That’s how NY law on this works.
OK, so if jail is always on the table, and this is the TENTH time he's been found in contempt, how would it have been "jumping the gun" to jail him after say the 8th time? Or how about the third time? Would I get away with three contempt findings and no jail time under the same judge?
It's not the tenth time after the first hearing.
There was one hearing covering several instances. All those get bundled together as a set of $1000 fines each. There was then a second hearing (which is what is being cited in OP), which covered more instances, but they all happened before the first hearing. So it's a second set of $1000 fines. If there's contempt hearing for something that happened after the first hearing, then it's jail time.
Which is how the system should work for anyone, excepting the size of the fine compared to networth.
Which is how the system should work for anyone
I feel really doubtful that it would work that way for me, (or for any rando off the street) but you seem very certain, so that's probably as far as we can expect this conversation to go. Thanks for the discussion though. :)
Well, it would work for you, because NY law is very specific about how this works. There isn't much wiggle room here.
Well, it would work for you, because NY law is very specific about how this works.
I've been avoiding requesting a citation up to now, but can you quote me the bit that says any random person can be fined for this many infractions (specifically willfully failing to follow directives from the judge in a way that would be considered contempt) without expecting jail for it? I've got no problem admitting I'm wrong, but as of yet I don't feel convinced that I am.
Edit - specifically the part which stipulates that this should result in one hearing, not "several" -
There was one hearing covering several instances. All those get bundled together as a set of $1000 fines each.
Judge Manchen's April 30 order cites this case from 1983:
The judge from that case considers if there should be criminal or civil penalties, and concludes that you can't just hastily jump to criminal penalties:
Criminal contempt, on the other hand, involves vindication of an offense against public justice and is utilized to protect the dignity of the judicial system and to compel respect for its mandates ( King v Barnes, 113 N.Y. 476). Inasmuch as the objective is deterrence of disobedience of judicial mandates, the penalty imposed is punitive in nature ( State of New York v Unique Ideas, supra). Although the line between the two types of contempt may be difficult to draw in a given case, and the same act may be punishable as both a civil and a criminal contempt, the element which serves to elevate a contempt from civil to criminal is the level of willfulness with which the conduct is carried out (compare Judiciary Law, § 753, subd A, par 3 [civil contempt], with id., § 750, subd A, par 3 [criminal contempt]; see, e.g., Sentry Armored Courier Corp. v New York City Off-Track Betting Corp., 75 A.D.2d 344). It is clear, in the present case, that the record does not support a finding of the willfulness necessary to hold respondents, particularly the Commissioner of Health, in criminal contempt. Accordingly, our further discussion is limited to the elements of civil contempt.
And then proscribes a fine, with the amount to be split up among the petitioners. This being from 1983, I'm not sure what the fine amount was at the time, but there are several petitioners making up several infractions here.
Accordingly, petitioners' motion to hold respondents Commissioner of Health, Beth Rifka, Inc., and Sally Gearhart in contempt is granted, and respondents are fined in the total amount of $4,000 for which they shall be deemed jointly and severally liable to be paid to petitioners as follows: $2,500 to be paid to petitioner Louise McCormick; $1,000 to be paid to petitioner Maria Bonsignore; $500 to be paid to petitioner Theresa Coppola.
Yeah it bothers me so much that ppl don't realize how the legal process works. If merchan makes any mistakes, his decision will get overturned. I want trump convicted and I want him to be unable to change that.
To be fair, he was supposed to put up over $400 million to prevent asset forfeiture with a hard deadline. He ended up posting bond for about a quarter of that, nearly a month after the deadline with no consequences.
A lot of people are rightfully skeptical that he'll never face consequences for his illegal acts.
I want the legal system to work the same for Trump as it would for me. Is that so much to ask? How many times do you suppose I could defy the court before ending up with either 1) a fine that was sizable enough to actually matter to me or 2) jail time?
The law in NY defines how much the fines are and how long someone could be held in jail. It would be illegal for the judge to issue a fine larger than what he's been issuing, which would give Trump a reason to go to a higher court to seek Merchan's removal, or at the very least delay the case
So like all fines, they are only a punishment for the poor and middle class.
Sweet, how long is that, and how many times does he have to fuck up before he ends up there for contempt the way I would?
Edit - pretty sure it's X + 1 times, where X is always however many times he's fucked up to date.
I understand you feel angry, but Merchan has been clear with Trump that jail is on the table moving forward, and I completely respect him not jumping the gun and throwing Trump in jail on a whim. By giving Trump ample opportunities to correct his behavior with warnings of jail time for future violations, he's setting it up so Trump's legal team will have no basis to argue Trump didn't deserve this when they try to remove Merchan from the case or try to appeal
I understand that but - is jail time not always on the table when you repeatedly ignore orders from a judge in their own courtroom? Does it need to be TEN TIMES to qualify for not jumping the gun? And do you really believe that "next time" he will get jail? (I do not.)
Meh.
2 legal systems. That's what's on display here. Whether there is justification or not. I don't fault you for accepting the justification, but this is proof there is one system for the rest of us (which will chew us up and derail our lives over relatively minor infractions), and one system for folks like Trump. (who will die of old age living a 1% lifestyle without ever going to jail, IMO.)
My frustration is not directed at you, you are just the unfortunate recipient.
Yes. That's how NY law on this works.
The thing that needs to be fixed here is that the initial fine isn't scaled to the offender's networth.
OK, so if jail is always on the table, and this is the TENTH time he's been found in contempt, how would it have been "jumping the gun" to jail him after say the 8th time? Or how about the third time? Would I get away with three contempt findings and no jail time under the same judge?
It's not the tenth time after the first hearing.
There was one hearing covering several instances. All those get bundled together as a set of $1000 fines each. There was then a second hearing (which is what is being cited in OP), which covered more instances, but they all happened before the first hearing. So it's a second set of $1000 fines. If there's contempt hearing for something that happened after the first hearing, then it's jail time.
Which is how the system should work for anyone, excepting the size of the fine compared to networth.
I feel really doubtful that it would work that way for me, (or for any rando off the street) but you seem very certain, so that's probably as far as we can expect this conversation to go. Thanks for the discussion though. :)
Well, it would work for you, because NY law is very specific about how this works. There isn't much wiggle room here.
I've been avoiding requesting a citation up to now, but can you quote me the bit that says any random person can be fined for this many infractions (specifically willfully failing to follow directives from the judge in a way that would be considered contempt) without expecting jail for it? I've got no problem admitting I'm wrong, but as of yet I don't feel convinced that I am.
Edit - specifically the part which stipulates that this should result in one hearing, not "several" -
Judge Manchen's April 30 order cites this case from 1983:
https://casetext.com/case/matter-of-mccormick-v-axelrod-6
The judge from that case considers if there should be criminal or civil penalties, and concludes that you can't just hastily jump to criminal penalties:
And then proscribes a fine, with the amount to be split up among the petitioners. This being from 1983, I'm not sure what the fine amount was at the time, but there are several petitioners making up several infractions here.
Its the second time he's been found in contempt. The first was on 9 counts. In the second the judge is now threatening jail time.
Only because Trump has money for those appeals. Any other person would have been in jail already, because only the rich get a pretense of justice.