The brain drain is affecting all the worlds but until recently it wasn't a big problem in Europe. Now, They all migrate to USA in hope of getting jobs at big techs.
They all migrate to USA in hope of getting jobs at big techs.
Eh... It's overrated. The pay is better, but otherwise it is definitely a downgrade. Maybe from east EU, it's a decent deal, from west EU, it's very disappointing. You basically end up thinking "but the money is good" over and over and wanting to go back to actual civilization.
That "money is good" fixes a lot of problems, though.
I've heard that developers in US can even afford a house!?! Crazy, huh, I couldn't believe it either...
I can live a luxury lifestyle in Spain on a budget that would be below poverty lines in the US.
'money is good' until it's all gone in the blink of an eye and you have nearly nothing to show for it.
Exactly. It's an odd type of gambling with your life.
"luxury", sure. Spain is one of the worse countries for high tech, with low salaries and still pretty high costs.
âmoney is goodâ until itâs all gone in the blink of an eye and you have nearly nothing to show for it.
WDYM? Unlike Europe, you can actually save a lot for the future.
This all is just one big cope. High tech workers in the US have it better than us. Tough luck, but it is what it is.
âluxuryâ, sure. Spain is one of the worse countries for high tech, with low salaries and still pretty high costs.
High costs? The highest cost place here is Barcelona and that still looks like a bargain compared to your average tech hub in America.
Also yeah, I do mean a luxury lifestyle. As in, almost all the perks you'd expect from a holiday package as part of a daily lifestyle.
WDYM? Unlike Europe, you can actually save a lot for the future.
Oh sweet summer child...
This all is just one big cope. High tech workers in the US have it better than us. Tough luck, but it is what it is.
I'm a high tech worker myself. Maybe we're in different markets (I'm in cybersecurity) but it sounds like you're being swindled.
Also yeah, I do mean a luxury lifestyle. As in, almost all the perks youâd expect from a holiday package as part of a daily lifestyle.
If you mean those tiny, badly built hotel apartments/suites, then I have a different idea of luxury life.
I used to be happy with a humble lifestyle when I was younger as well, but now with small kids, I want to provide them better living conditions.
Oh sweet summer childâŚ
Do you have some actual argument instead of vague condescending remarks?
Iâm a high tech worker myself. Maybe weâre in different markets (Iâm in cybersecurity) but it sounds like youâre being swindled.
In a way, I do feel swindled since my direct US teammates on the same level earn about the double of what I do, with lower taxes and lower cost of living. But then I'm actually quite happy with my 200K EUR total compensation if I don't compare.
The problem is that my compensation is rather a big exception. Most seniors I know earn something between 60-80K, with 100K being pretty rare (outside my company).
Only âŹ200k salary? Eesh! I see what you mean! Absolutely unable to save with that kind of money, especially after yatch maintenance and a ticket on Bezos's rocket!
I was in that position until last year, when I got a bump to âŹ500k. Hang in there. It gets better!
I already said I'm pretty happy with my personal salary and conditions. But my salary is far from typical and most devs here get less than half of that.
If you really earn 500K then your "luxury life" makes more sense, but is even farther from a typical Spanish dev.
Nah bro. Tech workers have it crazy good here in Western Europe and they know it.noboby wants to be working 80 hour weeks so you can spend most of your income on rent, get fucked over on healthcare and employee rights, and that's just the people not relying on the green card.
That's seems logical. But where's the innovation then ?
There's plenty of it, it's just not as widely publicised. The company that designed the chips in your phones started off as a British company (ARM) , the heart of the operating systems of many phones, computers and servers started in Finland (Linux), one of the biggest enterprise software developers is German (SAP), the world wide web, including HTTP and HTML, was invented by a Brit.
I don't see them being able to say who can and can't use such and such tech they made or have patent about or something like that. ARM did but it was from USA pressure.
Imagine if Torvalds said. I hate Dans, i don't want them to use my kernel or the brits saying wewill cut the net from France.
I donât see them being able to say who can and canât use such and such tech they made or have patent about or something like that.
That's because the likes of CERN and Linus Torvalds open sourced their work. And it's a very good thing for the industry as a whole that they did.
And that's how it should be !
You don't need to work 80 hour weeks or spend most of your income on rent.
Just don't buy into the SF bay area meme.
There are large parts of the country that aren't much better, and a lot of them are where these jobs are based. Doesn't help that companies have become anti-WFH recently.
Texas is much cheaper, doesn't have STATE INCOME TAX, housing is more readily available
Sure, Texas has less taxes. Shame about the lack of employee rights, public healthcare, public childcare, etc.
As long as you don't mind having basic human rights denied
Nah, it's difficult to get into US even for high tech workers. Western Europe also gets a lot of talent through immigration.
It just means that it's the creme de la crème that are taken which is kinda worst.
Having worked from Europe (London, specifically) together with US-based teams during my time in Investment Banking IT, they sure didn't seem to be lå crème de lå crème.
I've also worked in various parts of the Tech Industry, including Startups (never in the US, though at times with US-based colleagues or SV "refugees") and they weren't especially good, particularly at the more senior stages, probably because working long hours in a disorganised environment were most of your work ends up wasted due to mismanagement and lack of direction all for the very very low probability of making it big from stock options isn't exactly appealing for people with sufficient professional experience (professional experience in all senses, not just technical expertise but also the actual experience of being a professional at a senior level).
I think you're confusing the ability of - through throwing tons of money at it and trying countless times and in countless way, as well as due to good management mentoring networks - producing a few massivelly successful business ventures in Tech (and a trully gigantic list of failures nobody ever hears about), of the business, investment and social environment which is the Valley with actual competence in Tech: as far as I can tell they're great at attracting young, naive and trully brilliant (IQ-wise) people and throwing them all sorts of challenges which are great in the early professional growth stages, but are pretty close to incapable of supporting professional growth beyond mid-level.
This is the kind of rĂŠponse i like to read. First hand view of something i had a misconception about.
Just a little mistake : it's " la crème de la crème".
LĂ is used for location and pointing at something
Well, in my language accents have very specific rules based on the sound of the vowel, so I ended up using those (incorrectly, as you pointed out, because the feminine form of "le" is not spelled the same as the counterpart of "ici") and hoping for the best rather than the proper French ones which I don't actually know ;)
I give you that US is getting a better talent on average. But I don't believe this is the most pressing problem for EU - there's plenty of talent, there's just a problem in leveraging it.
I just want more competition.
A single company controlling the market is bound to end bad. A single country controlling such sensitive tech is bound to end bad.
The brain drain is affecting all the worlds but until recently it wasn't a big problem in Europe. Now, They all migrate to USA in hope of getting jobs at big techs.
Eh... It's overrated. The pay is better, but otherwise it is definitely a downgrade. Maybe from east EU, it's a decent deal, from west EU, it's very disappointing. You basically end up thinking "but the money is good" over and over and wanting to go back to actual civilization.
That "money is good" fixes a lot of problems, though.
I've heard that developers in US can even afford a house!?! Crazy, huh, I couldn't believe it either...
I can live a luxury lifestyle in Spain on a budget that would be below poverty lines in the US.
'money is good' until it's all gone in the blink of an eye and you have nearly nothing to show for it.
Exactly. It's an odd type of gambling with your life.
"luxury", sure. Spain is one of the worse countries for high tech, with low salaries and still pretty high costs.
WDYM? Unlike Europe, you can actually save a lot for the future.
This all is just one big cope. High tech workers in the US have it better than us. Tough luck, but it is what it is.
High costs? The highest cost place here is Barcelona and that still looks like a bargain compared to your average tech hub in America.
Also yeah, I do mean a luxury lifestyle. As in, almost all the perks you'd expect from a holiday package as part of a daily lifestyle.
Oh sweet summer child...
I'm a high tech worker myself. Maybe we're in different markets (I'm in cybersecurity) but it sounds like you're being swindled.
If you mean those tiny, badly built hotel apartments/suites, then I have a different idea of luxury life.
I used to be happy with a humble lifestyle when I was younger as well, but now with small kids, I want to provide them better living conditions.
Do you have some actual argument instead of vague condescending remarks?
In a way, I do feel swindled since my direct US teammates on the same level earn about the double of what I do, with lower taxes and lower cost of living. But then I'm actually quite happy with my 200K EUR total compensation if I don't compare.
The problem is that my compensation is rather a big exception. Most seniors I know earn something between 60-80K, with 100K being pretty rare (outside my company).
Only âŹ200k salary? Eesh! I see what you mean! Absolutely unable to save with that kind of money, especially after yatch maintenance and a ticket on Bezos's rocket!
I was in that position until last year, when I got a bump to âŹ500k. Hang in there. It gets better!
I already said I'm pretty happy with my personal salary and conditions. But my salary is far from typical and most devs here get less than half of that.
If you really earn 500K then your "luxury life" makes more sense, but is even farther from a typical Spanish dev.
Nah bro. Tech workers have it crazy good here in Western Europe and they know it.noboby wants to be working 80 hour weeks so you can spend most of your income on rent, get fucked over on healthcare and employee rights, and that's just the people not relying on the green card.
That's seems logical. But where's the innovation then ?
There's plenty of it, it's just not as widely publicised. The company that designed the chips in your phones started off as a British company (ARM) , the heart of the operating systems of many phones, computers and servers started in Finland (Linux), one of the biggest enterprise software developers is German (SAP), the world wide web, including HTTP and HTML, was invented by a Brit.
I don't see them being able to say who can and can't use such and such tech they made or have patent about or something like that. ARM did but it was from USA pressure. Imagine if Torvalds said. I hate Dans, i don't want them to use my kernel or the brits saying wewill cut the net from France.
That's because the likes of CERN and Linus Torvalds open sourced their work. And it's a very good thing for the industry as a whole that they did.
And that's how it should be !
You don't need to work 80 hour weeks or spend most of your income on rent.
Just don't buy into the SF bay area meme.
There are large parts of the country that aren't much better, and a lot of them are where these jobs are based. Doesn't help that companies have become anti-WFH recently.
Texas is much cheaper, doesn't have STATE INCOME TAX, housing is more readily available
Sure, Texas has less taxes. Shame about the lack of employee rights, public healthcare, public childcare, etc.
As long as you don't mind having basic human rights denied
Nah, it's difficult to get into US even for high tech workers. Western Europe also gets a lot of talent through immigration.
It just means that it's the creme de la crème that are taken which is kinda worst.
Having worked from Europe (London, specifically) together with US-based teams during my time in Investment Banking IT, they sure didn't seem to be lå crème de lå crème.
I've also worked in various parts of the Tech Industry, including Startups (never in the US, though at times with US-based colleagues or SV "refugees") and they weren't especially good, particularly at the more senior stages, probably because working long hours in a disorganised environment were most of your work ends up wasted due to mismanagement and lack of direction all for the very very low probability of making it big from stock options isn't exactly appealing for people with sufficient professional experience (professional experience in all senses, not just technical expertise but also the actual experience of being a professional at a senior level).
I think you're confusing the ability of - through throwing tons of money at it and trying countless times and in countless way, as well as due to good management mentoring networks - producing a few massivelly successful business ventures in Tech (and a trully gigantic list of failures nobody ever hears about), of the business, investment and social environment which is the Valley with actual competence in Tech: as far as I can tell they're great at attracting young, naive and trully brilliant (IQ-wise) people and throwing them all sorts of challenges which are great in the early professional growth stages, but are pretty close to incapable of supporting professional growth beyond mid-level.
This is the kind of rĂŠponse i like to read. First hand view of something i had a misconception about.
Just a little mistake : it's " la crème de la crème". Là is used for location and pointing at something
Well, in my language accents have very specific rules based on the sound of the vowel, so I ended up using those (incorrectly, as you pointed out, because the feminine form of "le" is not spelled the same as the counterpart of "ici") and hoping for the best rather than the proper French ones which I don't actually know ;)
I give you that US is getting a better talent on average. But I don't believe this is the most pressing problem for EU - there's plenty of talent, there's just a problem in leveraging it.
I just want more competition. A single company controlling the market is bound to end bad. A single country controlling such sensitive tech is bound to end bad.