Urban fighting is pure nightmare fuel for all parties.
It'd probably be safer for the civilians, to open up refugee camps outside of the contested area, allow inspected movement, unmolested, from the combat zone to the refugee camps, screening people, making sure they don't bring anything. Then announcing 100 m zones, that will be destroyed, leveling it, repeating everyday. Just pushing everyone out to the refugee camps. It would be an awful genocidal abuse, but it would save lives, it gives civilians the opportunity to get out of combat. It's only possible because Gaza is already a lockdown prison.
The upcoming death toll is going to be terrible no matter what. My soul is truly saddened
Yes, except that the collateral damage is not a bug it's a feature.
It would also save the lives of Israeli ground forces. If they don't have to clear house to house, they won't die in house to house fighting
I know, I was agreeing with your plan and methodology. I just don't see that happening for a couple of reasons.
It's not clear to me that women & children would be allowed to actively leave. There is a lot of social pressure not to abandon your group regardless of the threat to your personal safety.
Absolutely no fighting age men would be allowed into refugee camps or containment zones no matter what because checking every single one of them for weapons or IEDs is both extremely dangerous and time consuming. Plus they could be scouting or providing intelligence in other ways that would not be immediately clear.
When you allow for a more humanitarian solution you are opening yourself up to scrutiny on multiple fronts based on how you are treating those within your care. It is easier to simply throw out leaflets or warning signals before bombing / clearing an area, and then let the chips fall where they may. It gives plausible deniability against the invariable collateral damage that is to follow.
Lastly, war is always a dirty business. The truth is those within the military / government are always more willing to risk civilian casualties on the oppositional side rather than answering for casualties within their own forces. They also know the general public has an inbred need for revenge when these kinds of events occur. The silent majority often holds a "better us than them" mentality in the short term before cooler heads prevail, or people are exposed to the atrocities of their own military operations in the long term. Even then the damage has already been done, and most people simply move on.
There is no humanitarian solution coming. It is a nice thought, and a well intentioned one at that. But I can unequivocally guarantee you that there will be no financial or logistical appetite for saving Palestinian lives in this conflict, no matter what everyone repeats in the media. That is all for show. The hard truth is that many innocent people will die, the world will move forward, and Israel will collect it's pound of flesh so it can save face on the world stage.
End of story.
You're absolutely right. And I triple agree with the military urgency to get things done before international condemnation builds up. There's currently a window of forgiveness open to Israel, and the military is incentivized to do as much as they can before that window closes and people start saying hang on you can't do that.
Never waste a tragedy.
Never waste a tragedy.
...Yeah that's about the meat and potatoes of it as far as I can tell.
Even if the Isreali's completely level Gaza they will then have to fight a Stalingrad-esque campaign of fighting militants and remaining commandos in the remains of the city. Not to mention whatever tunnels survived the raids.
No matter how you cut it, thousands will die on their side if they push. They don't really seem to have a choice to back down now, but even if somehow they keep their casualties limited in Gaza, now the entire northern front has opened up with Hezb and other milita entering the frey. Its really a trap you can't win.
Total military control of an area gives you lots of options. Especially if you have time to set things up.
You completely level all of the buildings, then you use your thermal imaging, drones, to remove anything that's still moving.
To do a full cleanup, you could just wait, there's no food or water coming in. Limited use of neutron devices, thermobaric bombardment, nitrogen gas displacement, all the things you can't really use on civilian populations, become usable because the areas been evacuated. There's a lot of options.
There is no way an evacuation is happening. They will use all these weapons on an area in which civilians cannot escape.
There is no total military control after the 7th. Rockets are still being fired. This is the definition of out of control.
Urban fighting is pure nightmare fuel for all parties.
It'd probably be safer for the civilians, to open up refugee camps outside of the contested area, allow inspected movement,
That was never really on the table in Palestine. And especially less so now that there's 1200 dead Isreali's. They are not crossing into any lands held by the IDF without becoming prisoners.
The Egyptians have also refused to keep the border crossing open so fleeing to Egypt isn't an option either.
The pogroms have already started in response. There's nothing or noone that can stop this fight now. Sometimes the gears of history turn and crush those beneath it. And this time we're helping crush people beneath those gears. Its all fucked.
I wish people would realize that, while Egypt and Jordan are not as culpable as Israel when it comes to the Palestinian apartheid (and now genocide), they're culpable at a certain level themselves by not aiding Palestinians trying to flee Israeli violence or keeping them in their own refugee camps.
From what I can tell from my reading up, Palestinians were treated like shit by other Arab groups before Israel. They've never been especially high in the order of things. Israel is just treating them even worse than they've been treated before.
So while I'm glad there is condemnation of Israel, there needs to also be condemnation of Egypt and Jordan. They know they can allow Palestinians to resettle in their countries if those Palestinians so wish (not the best solution by any means) and they won't do it.
I don't always agree with your comments, but this is an incredibly important point that needs to be phrased in exactly this way as part of the discussion.
Egypt and Jordan sticking Palestinians on a lower rung of the social cast and treating them like a backwater minority group is only adding what seems like intentional fuel to this fire, especially at this point. Sometimes externalized pressure from your neighbors doing the right thing is what it takes to force a rational resolution to a long standing crisis.
It seems to me that the international community would have A LOT less of an appetite for the bullshit Israel does if there were Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan & Egypt that became the humanitarian face of the issue. It would put a shit load of pressure on Israel to make concessions towards a long standing solution.
Egypt and Jordan did take in Palestinian refugees at one point in the past. What followed was civil strife in Egypt, and a civil war in Jordan where their king actually died. Similar thing happened in Lebanon and Kuwait.
By no means does this mean it's right for them to ignore Palestinian refugees, nor that the past dictates the future, nor that Palestinians are inherently violent. I just understand their reticence.
open up refugee camps outside of the contested area, allow inspected movement, unmolested, from the combat zone to the refugee camps, screening people, making sure they don't bring anything
So... create a mini-Gaza inside of Gaza?
It wouldn't work anyway. Terrorists keep using civilian infrastructure to hide among it, they would also find a way to infiltrate any refugee camps, which would only end up bringing the combats to them.
Unless the next step were to make a mini-mini-Gaza inside the mini-Gaza refugee camps... then what, continue until nobody's left? 😒
Urban fighting is pure nightmare fuel for all parties.
It'd probably be safer for the civilians, to open up refugee camps outside of the contested area, allow inspected movement, unmolested, from the combat zone to the refugee camps, screening people, making sure they don't bring anything. Then announcing 100 m zones, that will be destroyed, leveling it, repeating everyday. Just pushing everyone out to the refugee camps. It would be an awful genocidal abuse, but it would save lives, it gives civilians the opportunity to get out of combat. It's only possible because Gaza is already a lockdown prison.
The upcoming death toll is going to be terrible no matter what. My soul is truly saddened
Yes, except that the collateral damage is not a bug it's a feature.
It would also save the lives of Israeli ground forces. If they don't have to clear house to house, they won't die in house to house fighting
I know, I was agreeing with your plan and methodology. I just don't see that happening for a couple of reasons.
It's not clear to me that women & children would be allowed to actively leave. There is a lot of social pressure not to abandon your group regardless of the threat to your personal safety.
Absolutely no fighting age men would be allowed into refugee camps or containment zones no matter what because checking every single one of them for weapons or IEDs is both extremely dangerous and time consuming. Plus they could be scouting or providing intelligence in other ways that would not be immediately clear.
When you allow for a more humanitarian solution you are opening yourself up to scrutiny on multiple fronts based on how you are treating those within your care. It is easier to simply throw out leaflets or warning signals before bombing / clearing an area, and then let the chips fall where they may. It gives plausible deniability against the invariable collateral damage that is to follow.
Lastly, war is always a dirty business. The truth is those within the military / government are always more willing to risk civilian casualties on the oppositional side rather than answering for casualties within their own forces. They also know the general public has an inbred need for revenge when these kinds of events occur. The silent majority often holds a "better us than them" mentality in the short term before cooler heads prevail, or people are exposed to the atrocities of their own military operations in the long term. Even then the damage has already been done, and most people simply move on.
There is no humanitarian solution coming. It is a nice thought, and a well intentioned one at that. But I can unequivocally guarantee you that there will be no financial or logistical appetite for saving Palestinian lives in this conflict, no matter what everyone repeats in the media. That is all for show. The hard truth is that many innocent people will die, the world will move forward, and Israel will collect it's pound of flesh so it can save face on the world stage.
End of story.
You're absolutely right. And I triple agree with the military urgency to get things done before international condemnation builds up. There's currently a window of forgiveness open to Israel, and the military is incentivized to do as much as they can before that window closes and people start saying hang on you can't do that.
Never waste a tragedy.
...Yeah that's about the meat and potatoes of it as far as I can tell.
Even if the Isreali's completely level Gaza they will then have to fight a Stalingrad-esque campaign of fighting militants and remaining commandos in the remains of the city. Not to mention whatever tunnels survived the raids.
No matter how you cut it, thousands will die on their side if they push. They don't really seem to have a choice to back down now, but even if somehow they keep their casualties limited in Gaza, now the entire northern front has opened up with Hezb and other milita entering the frey. Its really a trap you can't win.
Total military control of an area gives you lots of options. Especially if you have time to set things up.
You completely level all of the buildings, then you use your thermal imaging, drones, to remove anything that's still moving.
To do a full cleanup, you could just wait, there's no food or water coming in. Limited use of neutron devices, thermobaric bombardment, nitrogen gas displacement, all the things you can't really use on civilian populations, become usable because the areas been evacuated. There's a lot of options.
There is no way an evacuation is happening. They will use all these weapons on an area in which civilians cannot escape.
There is no total military control after the 7th. Rockets are still being fired. This is the definition of out of control.
It'd probably be safer for the civilians, to open up refugee camps outside of the contested area, allow inspected movement,
That was never really on the table in Palestine. And especially less so now that there's 1200 dead Isreali's. They are not crossing into any lands held by the IDF without becoming prisoners.
The Egyptians have also refused to keep the border crossing open so fleeing to Egypt isn't an option either.
The pogroms have already started in response. There's nothing or noone that can stop this fight now. Sometimes the gears of history turn and crush those beneath it. And this time we're helping crush people beneath those gears. Its all fucked.
I wish people would realize that, while Egypt and Jordan are not as culpable as Israel when it comes to the Palestinian apartheid (and now genocide), they're culpable at a certain level themselves by not aiding Palestinians trying to flee Israeli violence or keeping them in their own refugee camps.
From what I can tell from my reading up, Palestinians were treated like shit by other Arab groups before Israel. They've never been especially high in the order of things. Israel is just treating them even worse than they've been treated before.
So while I'm glad there is condemnation of Israel, there needs to also be condemnation of Egypt and Jordan. They know they can allow Palestinians to resettle in their countries if those Palestinians so wish (not the best solution by any means) and they won't do it.
I don't always agree with your comments, but this is an incredibly important point that needs to be phrased in exactly this way as part of the discussion.
Egypt and Jordan sticking Palestinians on a lower rung of the social cast and treating them like a backwater minority group is only adding what seems like intentional fuel to this fire, especially at this point. Sometimes externalized pressure from your neighbors doing the right thing is what it takes to force a rational resolution to a long standing crisis.
It seems to me that the international community would have A LOT less of an appetite for the bullshit Israel does if there were Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan & Egypt that became the humanitarian face of the issue. It would put a shit load of pressure on Israel to make concessions towards a long standing solution.
Egypt and Jordan did take in Palestinian refugees at one point in the past. What followed was civil strife in Egypt, and a civil war in Jordan where their king actually died. Similar thing happened in Lebanon and Kuwait.
By no means does this mean it's right for them to ignore Palestinian refugees, nor that the past dictates the future, nor that Palestinians are inherently violent. I just understand their reticence.
So... create a mini-Gaza inside of Gaza?
It wouldn't work anyway. Terrorists keep using civilian infrastructure to hide among it, they would also find a way to infiltrate any refugee camps, which would only end up bringing the combats to them.
Unless the next step were to make a mini-mini-Gaza inside the mini-Gaza refugee camps... then what, continue until nobody's left? 😒