They should have gone into gaza and tried to only kill people who shot back at them yeah. I do not care if they get ambushed and die, that is far better than a newborn in Gaza getting vaporized by a JDAM along with their entire family because Israel lied about Hamas being in their house.
I do not care if they get ambushed and die
You don't, but I'm pretty sure you'll understand that they do
Are you saying Hamas didn't attack Israel in the massacres?
...no? they did, that's universally undisputed. even hamas would say that.
Oh, I understand. You're saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent's homes?
Regardless, fighting terrorists in tight urban environments with civilians will always fail. The US couldn't handle it despite almost 20 years of trying, and Israel will definitely be unable to. This leaves a difficult problem, Hamas needs to be destroyed, but Hamas doesn't care about rules of engagement and likes to nestle themselves in high-civilian populations.
What is your solution here? Israel told all civilians to flee south and notified places that they are about to bomb (Though 5-20 minutes isn't much of a warning to get all of your possessions and get 10km's away.)
You’re saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent’s homes?
Yes, and until they provide evidence for every single building that they bombed in Gaza and Lebanon and the west bank, I will continue to think so.
Hamas needs to be destroyed
Sure, and the way to do that is to undermine their support by a) not bombing innocents in gaza and b) withdrawing settlements in the west bank to show Palestinians that the PA is the path to freedom, not hamas. Not radicalizing people is how you get rid of radical terrorist groups.
If Israel really wants the military solution, they can throw soldiers at urban combat, but it's probably the 2nd worst solution. Or maybe the 1st, considering how Israeli troops have a track record of deliberately targeting civilians, including children medics and journalists.
Israel told all civilians to flee south and notify places that they are about to bomb
There are so many things wrong with this. Warning about committing war crimes doesn't make them ok. They also stopped doing roof knocks, so no more warning. Regardless, Israel continues to bomb the south, they're bombing everywhere. They're even bombing ambulances.
Yes, and until they provide evidence for every single building that they bombed in Gaza and Lebanon and the west bank, I will continue to think so.
Well, I like to think neutrally since you only have their word to take for granted. Or you can take Hamas' word. But considering Israel is under scrutiny by the world stage, I think their word is more reputable.
Sure, and the way to do that is to undermine their support by a) not bombing innocents in gaza and b) withdrawing settlements in the west bank to show Palestinians that the PA is the path to freedom, not hamas. Not radicalizing people is how you get rid of radical terrorist groups.
And what is Israel to do while Hamas gathers forces and continues to attack?
If Israel really wants the military solution, they can throw soldiers at urban combat, but it’s probably the 2nd worst solution. Or maybe the 1st, considering how Israeli troops have a track record of deliberately targeting civilians, including children medics and journalists.
As does Hamas.
Warning about committing war crimes doesn’t make them ok.
Oooh, now you care about war crimes? Where were you when Hamas were performing war crimes?
They’re even bombing ambulances.
Source please.
Well I like to think neutrally since you only have their word to take for granted.
No I'm gonna think they lied, cause I don't think there is any way that Israel would have survived if half of the people in Gaza (1 million) were hamas militants or suppliers.
And what is Israel to do while Hamas gathers forces and continues to attack?
Tighten the border like they fucking should have done when they got intel that hamas was planning something. Don't let em through and they won't kill civilians.
Oooh, now you care about war crimes? Where were you when Hamas were performing war crimes?
I dislike war crimes yeah. I also think that it is a waste of time to condemn Nat Turner's crimes, or the ANC's crimes, or Algeria's crimes. Revolutions are violent, innocent people die, horrific crimes are committed. But you don't condemn the revolutionaries, you condemn the oppressor for forcing them to turn to these awful means.
Well alright. I prefer to go by information, personally.
Tighten the border like they fucking should have done when they got intel that hamas was planning something. Don’t let em through and they won’t kill civilians.
Heeey, wait a moment, earlier you were against Israeli Settlements in the West Bank (Which may I remind you, Israeli claims that the settlements are for security), and then you want to strengthen the border around Gaza? How do you expect them to strengthen it? Put turrets on all the walls? Armed squads? That's an entire border, an insane amount of resources compared to the checkpoint system that they use in the West Bank.
But you don’t condemn the revolutionaries, you condemn the oppressor for forcing them to turn to these awful means.
But that's how Israel came to be. Palestine and the Arab League had wars about this and lost to Israeli forces.
Well alright. I prefer to go by information, personally.
Ok, that's fine. Israel is still commiting horrific war crimes based on information, but the extent is what is in question.
Israeli Settlements in the West Bank
Settler colonialism is a cancer and should be eradicated from this planet. It is illegal by international law. Israel can claim they are for whatever it wants, it is still settler colonialism. If you can defend Israel's actions in the west bank, I don't think this discussion is going to be productive.
That’s an entire border, an insane amount of resources
Sucks to suck. Israel has billions of dollars of funding annually and mandatory conscription. They can step the fuck up and protect their own civilians without committing war crimes.
But that’s how Israel came to be. Palestine and the Arab League had wars about this and lost to Israeli
Israel came to be through colonialism. Thus any action against them is revolutionary. Just because Israel crushed the revolutionary action doesn't make Israel the revolutionary force.
Do you have a reputable source?
The source is the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, which is part of the International Red Cross. CNN is simply restating it.
Ok, that’s fine. Israel is still commiting horrific war crimes based on information, but the extent is what is in question.
As is Hamas. No one is a saint in this conflict, unfortunately.
Settler colonialism is a cancer and should be eradicated from this planet.
You do realise that means Palestine is also going to be eradicated, right? The Jews had claim to the land before the Ottomans.
Sucks to suck. Israel has billions of dollars of funding annually and mandatory conscription. They can step the fuck up and protect their own civilians without committing war crimes.
It's not a matter of resources; it's a matter of logistics. How will you protect a wall that spans 40km, close to Israeli civilians and Gaza citizens, 24/7 for an indefinite amount of time against a force that will only grow bigger and bigger and more and more violent?
If it's by attrition, that's what they've been trying, and it doesn't work when some terrorists can sneak through and slaughter innocents.
Israel came to be through colonialism. Thus any action against them is revolutionary. Just because Israel crushed the revolutionary action doesn’t make Israel the revolutionary force.
Palestine also came to be through colonialism. Regardless, Israel won both wars, it is their claim--Palestine fought and lost. Funnily enough, if the Arab League never declared war, they'd have their land.
The source is the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, which is part of the International Red Cross. CNN is simply restating it.
Can you find any other reputable sources reporting it? Neutral ones. If it's the international red cross, there should already be a UN report.
I don’t think this discussion is going to be productive.
I think it is. We're two westerners, we have zero stakes in what happens, there's nothing either of can do but discuss what's happening. Plenty of disagreements, of course, that's healthy, but there shouldn't be any aggression going on, right?
As is Hamas. No one is a saint in this conflict, unfortunately.
100% agree. No saints in war.
You do realize that means Palestine is also going to be eradicated, right? The Jews had claim to the land before the Ottomans.
The Canaanites were there first. Both Palestinian Jews and Arabs descended from the Canaanites, which in turn likely descended from neolithic people who lived in the area. If you're going to use the historical claim stuff from hundreds of years ago, a secular Palestinian state would be the only state with a right to exist in that area.
How will you protect a wall that spans 40km, close to Israeli civilians and Gaza citizens
170k active duty, 465k reservists. 635,000 people in all, for 40,000 meters of border. Israel is rich enough to supply them with food and weapons, so really they can create fortified positions behind the wall and then fill it with people. And they've also got drones and jets, so it would be pretty easy to airstrike anyone who breached the border wall. The important thing would be for them to make the fortifications outside of rock throwing range so they have no excuse to kill innocent civilians.
Regardless, Israel won both wars, it is their claim–Palestine fought and lost.
Might does not make right. Russia invaded Crimea and won, does that make it rightfully theirs? If China invaded Taiwan, would that make it rightfully theirs? Just because Nat Turner and John Brown lost doesn't mean they should have just said "oh well" and kept slavery. The Native Americans losing against the US didn't justify forcing them onto reservations.
Can you find any other reputable sources reporting it? Neutral ones. If it’s the international red cross, there should already be a UN report.
but there shouldn’t be any aggression going on, right?
I mean idk, I do get angry at some of this stuff. And I think that's fine, cause there is a genocide going on and innocent civilians on both sides are suffering so badly because Israel couldn't keep themselves from colonizing. You should get angry at this.
But if you're open to change your mind, I'm happy to continue talking about this.
And they’ve also got drones and jets, so it would be pretty easy to airstrike anyone who breached the border wall.
... You want to spend a minimum of 200 million USD to airstrike breaches? That's grossly unrealistic.
Might does not make right.
But Russia didn't declare war when they invaded Crimea, likewise they didn't when it came to Ukraine. For Taiwan, it wouldn't be rightfully theirs, but they will still control it. But you see, that brings us back to the loop, where the Jews have historic claim to the land before Palestine but lost a war and were taken away from the land. That's why the two-state solution was really the only peaceful method of resolution, which the Arabs didn't accept.
Just because Nat Turner and John Brown lost doesn’t mean they should have just said “oh well” and kept slavery. The Native Americans losing against the US didn’t justify forcing them onto reservations.
Don't know who those people are.
Reuters wrote about it, that’s the least biased news website I can think of.
Thank you! That is very disgusting behaviour, and Israel should do better. But again, as usual, Hamas did it first, killing paramedics during the massacre. Not that it's justified, it is not. Gaza, Israel--no one is innocent here.
But if you’re open to change your mind, I’m happy to continue talking about this.
What do you think I need to change my mind on?
There's a genocide, yes, it ticks enough of the ten stages to be one. Likewise, Gaza wishes to genocide Israel. However, Palestine, specifically Gaza, put itself in a difficult situation with poor choices like trying to overthrow neighbouring governments of friendly/neutral nations.
See I think we speak from Western privilege, where we can voice our opinions on these matters, but ultimately, we have no power and no input; we don't live there, and we don't experience the terror both groups feel and the hatred they have for one another. We can feel sadness, who wouldn't? But I think Westerners should shut up and just let what happens, happen, the land has been fought over for millennia, and it has nothing but death to show for it, will it stop?
If the West needs to get involved, at least accept refugees who are in favour of secularism, specifically the oppressed women and the children.
where the Jews have historic claim to the land before Palestine
No they didn't. I wrote this in my other comment. Palestinians have the same historical claim as Israelis, if not better because Palestinians have lived there pretty continuously while a ton of Israelis, especially settlers, are from Europe and the US (born there). So if Israel wins it from Palestinians, it isn't rightfully theirs. If the Gaza militia's goals were to
… You want to spend a minimum of 200 million USD to airstrike breaches? That’s grossly unrealistic.
Yeah? The US gives them billions of dollars per year, and just gave them more aid. Its time for them to stop using that to vaporize children.
Don’t know who those people are.
Nat Turner and John Brown led slave revolts in the southern US before the Civil War. Both of them lost and were executed. Nat Turner's revolution in particular was very brutal and included killing children. When they lost their revolutions, it didn't make slavery all of a sudden OK.
That’s why the two-state solution was really the only peaceful method of resolution,
There are a few problems with the two state solution. One, Palestinians have lived on this land for as far back as they can remember, you can't not allow them to return to their ancestral homes and then expect them to agree to that. Two, Israel has shown it does not care about where it is or isn't allowed to do stuff. As evidenced by the west bank. It would never respect the border. A secular one state solution is the only solution that would work at this point.
killing paramedics during the massacre.
IMO there's a difference between indiscriminately shooting at everyone, and deliberately aiming an airstrike at medics. It isn't a big difference, but its there. Also you said "as usual, Hamas did it first." Are you referring to killing women, children, and other civilians, and committing other horrific acts? Because Israel was pretty much founded on that. They did much worse during the Nakba.
Gaza wishes to genocide Israel
Maybe a few people want that, but Hamas wants a 2 state solution, and PIJ, the PFLP, and the DFLP have stated their goal is the destruction of the Israeli state, not the genocide of it's people. And the PFLP and DFLP are secular.
Hell PIJ is the most extremist one, and its leader has said he has "no problems living with Jewish people... We have lived together in peace for centuries. And if Netanyahu were to ask if we can live together in one state, I would say to him: "If we have exactly the same rights as Jews to come to all of Palestine. If Khaled Meshaal and Ramadan Shalah can come whenever they want, and visit Haifa, and buy a home in Herzliyah if they want, then we can have a new language, and dialogue is possible."" (according to wikipedia, this was part of an interview)
the land has been fought over for millennia
Nah it was actually peaceful under the Ottomans, who treated Jews Christians and Muslims pretty equally. There was pretty much just a tax for Christians and Jews. The "land has always been fought over" thing makes the situation sound hopeless, but really the British just fucked up the peace. As usual. Fuck the British.
Palestine, specifically Gaza, put itself in a difficult situation with poor choices like trying to overthrow neighbouring governments of friendly/neutral nations.
Sure but black september was in 1970, the average age in Gaza is 18.
If the West needs to get involved, at least accept refugees who are in favour of secularism, specifically the oppressed women and the children.
The west already is involved. I'm from the US. We send Israel billions of dollars every year to bomb children. If the west is gonna help solve this, we need to use that money to twist Israel's arm and force them to cooperate, but we won't because we like our forward operating base in the middle east.
What do you think I need to change my mind on?
I mean the first comment I responded to was you implying that Israel has no other options but commit horrific war crimes, that's the main thing I want to change your mind on.
They should have gone into gaza and tried to only kill people who shot back at them yeah. I do not care if they get ambushed and die, that is far better than a newborn in Gaza getting vaporized by a JDAM along with their entire family because Israel lied about Hamas being in their house.
You don't, but I'm pretty sure you'll understand that they do
Are you saying Hamas didn't attack Israel in the massacres?
...no? they did, that's universally undisputed. even hamas would say that.
Oh, I understand. You're saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent's homes?
Regardless, fighting terrorists in tight urban environments with civilians will always fail. The US couldn't handle it despite almost 20 years of trying, and Israel will definitely be unable to. This leaves a difficult problem, Hamas needs to be destroyed, but Hamas doesn't care about rules of engagement and likes to nestle themselves in high-civilian populations.
What is your solution here? Israel told all civilians to flee south and notified places that they are about to bomb (Though 5-20 minutes isn't much of a warning to get all of your possessions and get 10km's away.)
Yes, and until they provide evidence for every single building that they bombed in Gaza and Lebanon and the west bank, I will continue to think so.
Sure, and the way to do that is to undermine their support by a) not bombing innocents in gaza and b) withdrawing settlements in the west bank to show Palestinians that the PA is the path to freedom, not hamas. Not radicalizing people is how you get rid of radical terrorist groups.
If Israel really wants the military solution, they can throw soldiers at urban combat, but it's probably the 2nd worst solution. Or maybe the 1st, considering how Israeli troops have a track record of deliberately targeting civilians, including children medics and journalists.
There are so many things wrong with this. Warning about committing war crimes doesn't make them ok. They also stopped doing roof knocks, so no more warning. Regardless, Israel continues to bomb the south, they're bombing everywhere. They're even bombing ambulances.
Well, I like to think neutrally since you only have their word to take for granted. Or you can take Hamas' word. But considering Israel is under scrutiny by the world stage, I think their word is more reputable.
And what is Israel to do while Hamas gathers forces and continues to attack?
As does Hamas.
Oooh, now you care about war crimes? Where were you when Hamas were performing war crimes?
Source please.
No I'm gonna think they lied, cause I don't think there is any way that Israel would have survived if half of the people in Gaza (1 million) were hamas militants or suppliers.
Tighten the border like they fucking should have done when they got intel that hamas was planning something. Don't let em through and they won't kill civilians.
I dislike war crimes yeah. I also think that it is a waste of time to condemn Nat Turner's crimes, or the ANC's crimes, or Algeria's crimes. Revolutions are violent, innocent people die, horrific crimes are committed. But you don't condemn the revolutionaries, you condemn the oppressor for forcing them to turn to these awful means.
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-10-11-23/h_b44251fc62ee96a79fcdb942c6aaad97
Well alright. I prefer to go by information, personally.
Heeey, wait a moment, earlier you were against Israeli Settlements in the West Bank (Which may I remind you, Israeli claims that the settlements are for security), and then you want to strengthen the border around Gaza? How do you expect them to strengthen it? Put turrets on all the walls? Armed squads? That's an entire border, an insane amount of resources compared to the checkpoint system that they use in the West Bank.
But that's how Israel came to be. Palestine and the Arab League had wars about this and lost to Israeli forces.
Sorry, I should've been more clear. Do you have a reputable source? CNN has a bad history of misinformation and bias. After the whole hospital bullshit, I only read neutral or reputable sources.
Ok, that's fine. Israel is still commiting horrific war crimes based on information, but the extent is what is in question.
Settler colonialism is a cancer and should be eradicated from this planet. It is illegal by international law. Israel can claim they are for whatever it wants, it is still settler colonialism. If you can defend Israel's actions in the west bank, I don't think this discussion is going to be productive.
Sucks to suck. Israel has billions of dollars of funding annually and mandatory conscription. They can step the fuck up and protect their own civilians without committing war crimes.
Israel came to be through colonialism. Thus any action against them is revolutionary. Just because Israel crushed the revolutionary action doesn't make Israel the revolutionary force.
The source is the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, which is part of the International Red Cross. CNN is simply restating it.
As is Hamas. No one is a saint in this conflict, unfortunately.
You do realise that means Palestine is also going to be eradicated, right? The Jews had claim to the land before the Ottomans.
It's not a matter of resources; it's a matter of logistics. How will you protect a wall that spans 40km, close to Israeli civilians and Gaza citizens, 24/7 for an indefinite amount of time against a force that will only grow bigger and bigger and more and more violent?
If it's by attrition, that's what they've been trying, and it doesn't work when some terrorists can sneak through and slaughter innocents.
Palestine also came to be through colonialism. Regardless, Israel won both wars, it is their claim--Palestine fought and lost. Funnily enough, if the Arab League never declared war, they'd have their land.
Can you find any other reputable sources reporting it? Neutral ones. If it's the international red cross, there should already be a UN report.
I think it is. We're two westerners, we have zero stakes in what happens, there's nothing either of can do but discuss what's happening. Plenty of disagreements, of course, that's healthy, but there shouldn't be any aggression going on, right?
100% agree. No saints in war.
The Canaanites were there first. Both Palestinian Jews and Arabs descended from the Canaanites, which in turn likely descended from neolithic people who lived in the area. If you're going to use the historical claim stuff from hundreds of years ago, a secular Palestinian state would be the only state with a right to exist in that area.
170k active duty, 465k reservists. 635,000 people in all, for 40,000 meters of border. Israel is rich enough to supply them with food and weapons, so really they can create fortified positions behind the wall and then fill it with people. And they've also got drones and jets, so it would be pretty easy to airstrike anyone who breached the border wall. The important thing would be for them to make the fortifications outside of rock throwing range so they have no excuse to kill innocent civilians.
Might does not make right. Russia invaded Crimea and won, does that make it rightfully theirs? If China invaded Taiwan, would that make it rightfully theirs? Just because Nat Turner and John Brown lost doesn't mean they should have just said "oh well" and kept slavery. The Native Americans losing against the US didn't justify forcing them onto reservations.
Reuters wrote about it, that's the least biased news website I can think of. https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Fworld%2Fmiddle-east%2Fgaza-rescue-workers-scared-exhausted-under-israels-air-strikes-2023-10-13%2F
I mean idk, I do get angry at some of this stuff. And I think that's fine, cause there is a genocide going on and innocent civilians on both sides are suffering so badly because Israel couldn't keep themselves from colonizing. You should get angry at this.
But if you're open to change your mind, I'm happy to continue talking about this.
... You want to spend a minimum of 200 million USD to airstrike breaches? That's grossly unrealistic.
But Russia didn't declare war when they invaded Crimea, likewise they didn't when it came to Ukraine. For Taiwan, it wouldn't be rightfully theirs, but they will still control it. But you see, that brings us back to the loop, where the Jews have historic claim to the land before Palestine but lost a war and were taken away from the land. That's why the two-state solution was really the only peaceful method of resolution, which the Arabs didn't accept.
Don't know who those people are.
Thank you! That is very disgusting behaviour, and Israel should do better. But again, as usual, Hamas did it first, killing paramedics during the massacre. Not that it's justified, it is not. Gaza, Israel--no one is innocent here.
What do you think I need to change my mind on?
There's a genocide, yes, it ticks enough of the ten stages to be one. Likewise, Gaza wishes to genocide Israel. However, Palestine, specifically Gaza, put itself in a difficult situation with poor choices like trying to overthrow neighbouring governments of friendly/neutral nations.
See I think we speak from Western privilege, where we can voice our opinions on these matters, but ultimately, we have no power and no input; we don't live there, and we don't experience the terror both groups feel and the hatred they have for one another. We can feel sadness, who wouldn't? But I think Westerners should shut up and just let what happens, happen, the land has been fought over for millennia, and it has nothing but death to show for it, will it stop?
If the West needs to get involved, at least accept refugees who are in favour of secularism, specifically the oppressed women and the children.
No they didn't. I wrote this in my other comment. Palestinians have the same historical claim as Israelis, if not better because Palestinians have lived there pretty continuously while a ton of Israelis, especially settlers, are from Europe and the US (born there). So if Israel wins it from Palestinians, it isn't rightfully theirs. If the Gaza militia's goals were to
Yeah? The US gives them billions of dollars per year, and just gave them more aid. Its time for them to stop using that to vaporize children.
Nat Turner and John Brown led slave revolts in the southern US before the Civil War. Both of them lost and were executed. Nat Turner's revolution in particular was very brutal and included killing children. When they lost their revolutions, it didn't make slavery all of a sudden OK.
There are a few problems with the two state solution. One, Palestinians have lived on this land for as far back as they can remember, you can't not allow them to return to their ancestral homes and then expect them to agree to that. Two, Israel has shown it does not care about where it is or isn't allowed to do stuff. As evidenced by the west bank. It would never respect the border. A secular one state solution is the only solution that would work at this point.
IMO there's a difference between indiscriminately shooting at everyone, and deliberately aiming an airstrike at medics. It isn't a big difference, but its there. Also you said "as usual, Hamas did it first." Are you referring to killing women, children, and other civilians, and committing other horrific acts? Because Israel was pretty much founded on that. They did much worse during the Nakba.
Maybe a few people want that, but Hamas wants a 2 state solution, and PIJ, the PFLP, and the DFLP have stated their goal is the destruction of the Israeli state, not the genocide of it's people. And the PFLP and DFLP are secular.
Hell PIJ is the most extremist one, and its leader has said he has "no problems living with Jewish people... We have lived together in peace for centuries. And if Netanyahu were to ask if we can live together in one state, I would say to him: "If we have exactly the same rights as Jews to come to all of Palestine. If Khaled Meshaal and Ramadan Shalah can come whenever they want, and visit Haifa, and buy a home in Herzliyah if they want, then we can have a new language, and dialogue is possible."" (according to wikipedia, this was part of an interview)
Nah it was actually peaceful under the Ottomans, who treated Jews Christians and Muslims pretty equally. There was pretty much just a tax for Christians and Jews. The "land has always been fought over" thing makes the situation sound hopeless, but really the British just fucked up the peace. As usual. Fuck the British.
Sure but black september was in 1970, the average age in Gaza is 18.
The west already is involved. I'm from the US. We send Israel billions of dollars every year to bomb children. If the west is gonna help solve this, we need to use that money to twist Israel's arm and force them to cooperate, but we won't because we like our forward operating base in the middle east.
I mean the first comment I responded to was you implying that Israel has no other options but commit horrific war crimes, that's the main thing I want to change your mind on.