They're straight up razing the region into the ground. How the fuck are governments okay with this wanton destruction of people's lives and homes.
Because speaking out against Israel is very frequently (and maliciously) intentionally misconstrued as antisemitism to allow them to get away with crimes against humanity. It's been this way for decades, it's just a lot more open and obvious currently.
It's actually worse than that. For decades the media, politicians, and the Israeli government have deliberately conflated Israel, the country, with the Israeli government/leadership, the Israeli population, Judaism, the religion, and the Jewish community more broadly (including the diaspora).
So now any criticism of the Israeli government is a criticism of the country, the people, and the religion simultaneously, depending on what's most convenient.
And there's a few rather alarming types of political movements that deliberately blur the lines between the people, the state, and the leadership (and in this case the dominant religion) in order to minimize criticism and maximize loyalty...
Yes! Thank you for putting this out there. I always forget about that aspect of it, and I was actually just listening to an episode of Hood Politics (You wasn't outside part 2) that went over this and had a really good set of clips from a rabbi that expounded on this very topic.
So Cartman was right they control the world.
Very nice, succinct example of exactly what I was talking about: by blurring the line between Judaism, the Jewish people, and the Israeli state, folks like you can paint any kind of criticism of Israeli government action, their supporters in media, or allied governments, as antisemitic, thereby shutting down reasonable discussion. Truly a thought terminating comment. Well done.
Such a clear attempt to stop or totally derail conversation. I've taken to just blocking these accounts, but that's only good for me, not the wider community.
The Nazi regime was both the worst and the best thing that could happen to the Jews. It was absolutely horrific, but it's given them a seemingly infinite get out of jail card.
It's not okay, but their reasoning is:
We have to rescue out citizens who have been taken hostage.
To do that we will send in troops.
To make it safe for the troops we will level all existing structures.
Dead civilians aren't our responsibility because they are not our people.
It's ghoulish, if someone kidnapped a family and hid in the basement of my apartment, no one reasonable would support demolishing the building with people inside their homes to get at them.
Really weird to carpet bomb a country BEFORE doing anything about hostages that were taken there especially when the country is smaller than the state of Rhode Island by almost a factor of 10. Other countries have already gotten people freed, Israel was busy putting the hostages in danger.
Add on to that the REFUSAL TO ACCEPT HOSTAGES because "we don't want your dirty bargaining chips (our citizens)". Yeah, really fucking weird.
Wait, what? I haven't been following these last few days. Can you share a link?
Israel (8550 square miles) is about the size of New Jersey. Gaza (141 square miles) is half the size of New York City and the West Bank (2182 square miles) is a little smaller than Delaware or two Rhode Islands.
For the west coast Americans, Israel is bit bigger than the SF Bay Area. Gaza is three times the size of San Francisco. The West Bank is roughly the size of Sonoma and Marin counties together.
The gaza strip is 140 square miles. No ones dropping years worth of munitions on the west bank right now. All those bombs that added up to more than a year of the US bombing Afghanistan are falling in 140 square miles. You know where the bombs are dropping. Lets keep on the Afghanistan comparison. They have a quarter million square miles and got in one year what Gaza got in two weeks. Afghanistan has over 1700 times the area of the Gaza strip.
What they're doing is criminal, but I was actually a little surprised that the destruction isn't as complete as I expected. It's harder to tell though because many of the before pictures are directly top down, so you can't easily tell how tall buildings were in the before photos.
At first glance it doesn't seem that bad but the more you look the worse it gets. Almost every area of the photo is affected.
Almost every area, but at the same time it's patchy. There are buildings that seem intact right next to buildings that have been completely levelled.
If a building is next to a building that has been completely leveled it's almost certainly no longer structurally sound or safe to be in.
Yeah who the fuck thinks a bomb going off next door is gonna keep your house liveable no matter if a single wall is standing pretty good.
You can see in those photos that it's really just a few walls remaining. All that grey is the dust of everything that was burned and concrete that has been practically disintegrated. None of that is habitable unless you considered the world trade center still standing cause some of the rebar was still pointing up.
Yeah who the fuck thinks a bomb going off next door is gonna keep your house liveable no matter if a single wall is standing pretty good.
Where did I say anything like that? I merely pointed out something notable.
You can see in those photos that it’s really just a few walls remaining.
Now you're speaking in hyperbole. There is a range of degrees of destruction clearly visible from these photos. Far too many people are making blanket statements without really looking at things and making an accurate assessment.
The dust alone is a crazily significant yet drastically under-represented health hazard. Western countries are only just starting to recognise the harmful effects of silicosis from the workplace, particularly in construction and demolition, when the reality is it is likely that much of what was historically attributed to asbestosis is in fact more strongly linked to silicosis - both conditions involve inhaling small but sharp particles that rattle around and destroy the lungs, but it's far more likely that some silica-based substance will get airborne and then inhaled than asbestos.
Understanding that doesn't make it any less notable that some buildings remain while others are demolished. If anything, it points to the inhumanity of Israel's actions - they claim they're only targeting military targets and minimising civilian casualties, but the fallout is far, far more significant than anyone is discussing.
Look I get it, you said something off the cuff that was more shock than than substance. "Oh wow, would that the craters would have been larger by now" which everyone pretty quickly took poorly cause it's a bit insensitive while still just being stream of consciousness.
And now you are trying to show that you do get it and care. I am sure you do care about people but like that level of destruction is pretty high and people are also rightfully to call it razed to the ground cause no one is living in those places anymore. It's still a massive amount of destruction. Just let it go man.
Yeah wow whatever nevermind on trying to cover for his inflammatory asshole.
I've not been inflammatory here, you've come in and argued against claims I didn't make. Check your own house first before you criticise others.
Your comment has more scarecrows than a shitty early naughties B-movie.
My point has been consistent, you're trying to elicit someone to jerk yourself off over nonsense.
it's a lot more complicated than that. You and I, and some governments care for civilian structures, but terrorists do not. That's why they make their bases in the middle of populous areas.
It's not complicated at all. Bombing a residential building is a terrorist act.
It doesn't matter what you claim is hiding underneath.
How would you, enlightened Westerner, as Israel, have responded to the massacres?
It doesn't take a military strategist to know that this wasn't the right response. Terrorism is an ideological threat, it cannot be defeated or "rooted out" by conventional weapons until you kill every last person who finds it worthwhile to fight for the ideology. Out of all of the diverse peoples of the world, you might expect that the Jews would understand the gruesome impracticality of that goal.
So terrorists slaughter hundreds of your innocents, crossing over two border walls, and your response is what?
Not radicalize more people? Respond without wiping out 50% of the residential buildings?
So you'd have the Israel military go into Hamas territory, proceed to get ambushed, and still end up with dead civilians because terrorists don't care about civilian casualities?
They should have gone into gaza and tried to only kill people who shot back at them yeah. I do not care if they get ambushed and die, that is far better than a newborn in Gaza getting vaporized by a JDAM along with their entire family because Israel lied about Hamas being in their house.
I do not care if they get ambushed and die
You don't, but I'm pretty sure you'll understand that they do
Are you saying Hamas didn't attack Israel in the massacres?
...no? they did, that's universally undisputed. even hamas would say that.
Oh, I understand. You're saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent's homes?
Regardless, fighting terrorists in tight urban environments with civilians will always fail. The US couldn't handle it despite almost 20 years of trying, and Israel will definitely be unable to. This leaves a difficult problem, Hamas needs to be destroyed, but Hamas doesn't care about rules of engagement and likes to nestle themselves in high-civilian populations.
What is your solution here? Israel told all civilians to flee south and notified places that they are about to bomb (Though 5-20 minutes isn't much of a warning to get all of your possessions and get 10km's away.)
That's a nice saying. It's also a deflection from answering the question.
I don't agree with what Israel is doing, but I also don't see what an appropriate response would have been. Certainly not responding was not an option. And innocent civilians are going to be victims in any form of response.
I would have held onto the moral high ground instead of instantly bombing civilians.
I would do everything I could to rescue the hostages, instead of ignoring them and bombing them.
I would negotiate with Palestinian leadership, offering them a path towards autonomy and freedom from their open air prison in return for handing over every single Hamas terrorist that attacked on Oct 7th.
Of course there is no magic solution. Even if we find the best possible course there will still be bloodshed and deep resentment. But with the current Israeli strategy, for every Hamas terrorist that they kill, they are creating 2 more to take their place.
I would negotiate with Palestinian leadership, offering them a path towards autonomy and freedom
Israel and the UN tried that already. Hamas said no.
Negotiating with terrorists typically does not end well. Once they realize that their methods are effective to get what they want, they will keep doing the same over and over until they ask for something that you can't give them, and then you'll look like the bad guy.
Except that is not what the poster you're replying to said. The poster said, 'negotiate with Palestinians to hand over Hamas responsible for 10/7'. That's not 'negotiating with Hamas'.
There was an ongoing peace process between Israel and the secular PLO with the Oslo Accords and then Israel stopped the process. Israel accelerated land grabs and illegal settlements, and actually PROMOTED Hamas. The PLO organizations had either pledged to not harm civilians or given up armed struggle altogether. But Israel said NO to land for peace and so why should Palestinians choose peaceful negotiations?
Who's gonna hand them over? The government? Hamas are the government.
Sadly your comment could equally apply to both sides.
The rebel incursions are a direct challenge to the authority and stability of the Empire. It's crucial to respond decisively to such threats.
I think it's a star wars quote from tarkin.
Can you elaborate on this please?
This is not the explanation you're looking for
It amazes me how accurate the IDF's intelligence seems to be, they seem to know every weapon stash and tunnel entrance in the whole of gaza /s
Oh no, uh, yea, they were all stashes. That house? Jihadi radio, yea. That garden? A fiendish cache of turnips um, bullets~~?~~
Hamas is a sack of shit org for using human shields and storing their shit in civilian residences, but the IDF is absolutely meting out collective punishment to civilians using that excuse. It has happened, sure, but fuck me, this wholesale destruction is horrific. And when Guterres alludes to that fact, the screams of objection are hideous.
Things have gotten so out of hand. It is sad to see.
There was a map somewhere that showed all of Gaza and indicated damage and destroyed - they seem to be focussing on destroying various small(ish) areas pretty much to the ground.
I assume they have intel on tunnel complexes there, or just want to be able to flatten enough to have 'safe' areas inside Gaza?
It's definitely a Russia style invasion style they are going for, not caring about collateral damage at all...
Edit: I can't find the image so I don't know if it was actually reliable
I think you're referring to this Economist article which tracks the difference between October 6th and October 12th.
Not the exact map, but definitely showing the same thing (and a reputable source).
It is a huge amount of damage, but it is relatively contained (for now). I can't imagine you would feel safe in one of the undamaged areas though.
I fucking hate Israel. They're an abhorant infestation.
I would have said, "settler colonial state". What that state is doing to the Palestinians will, in the lense of history, be seen as equivalent to what the United States did to the indigenous peoples.
"Infestation" is too close to fascist antisemitic tropes and while criticism of Israel is NOT automatically antisemitic, it can be.
Yeah, fair enough. I just didn't want to call them a country. They're invaders committing a slow genocide of the Palestinian people.
Is it just me or does Gaza look like an extremely ancient abandoned since forever civilization now?
I blame both Hamas AND the Israeli Defence Force for this. The former for turning civilian infrastructure into bases, and the latter for bombing all of it. Seriously you guys?
Let the Israeli children destroy their sand castles. I'm sure they'll learn that it costs money to build more, eventually
Tough pill to swallow: Don't make tunnels under your house.
Tough pill to swallow: don't use proximity shielding as an excuse to kill civilians in one of the most dense areas in the world.
After Hamas broke through and started murdering people, I swear people just expected Israel to take it? Not react? Not retaliate? Leave? I don't understand what anyone expected here. Hamas wanted this and knew it would happen.
I mean asymmetrical warfare is a messy affair. Hamas gets new recruits who are angered about their family and homes being destroyed. Big nations typically don't win these kind of engagements in the modern era because at least to modern sensibilities we don't really want to see pointless slaughter and genocide, this isn't to advocate for it, quite far from it but historically typically you would have to be ruthless to subjugate people but thankfully modern sensibilities say that is pretty fucked. So really this will either end up another "forever" war or one of the sides will be wiped out entirely.
Yes, there are people who 100% think Israel not only should forgive and forget about Oct 7. Then there are the people who think Israelis deserve that and worse.
You realize Israel has been the aggressor for over 20 years, right? Palestine has finally gathered enough military resources to counter attack in retaliation. It's self defense at this point
So you agree with the IDF in that targeting civilians is self defense?
Or are we playing pedantic games again where we try to rationalize bad things by wearing victimized status one moment while murdering children the next?
Maybe the IDF and Hamas are both responsible. Hamas aren't freedom fighters like my fellow lefties are making them out to be. They want a theonomic system. And they have one.
Wow, you know nothing about the conflict
True, Israel has actually been the aggressor for waaaaaay longer than 20 years.
Since the Gazans are using their own children as human shields, what do you suggest the Israelis do instead?
Not committing war crimes is an option. Do you not understand that?
So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all. Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation. One which you would never accept had your children been murdered. The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be left alone?
So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all.
Straight to petty little barbs? I guess I upset you.
Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation.
Now do Israel, they have blood on their hands too. Do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they did for funsies? That you're blind to this speaks more to your bias than your understanding of the history of this conflict.
One which you would never accept had your children been murdered.
You're so close to figuring it out, keep going. I believe in you.
The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be left alone?
Did I say that? No I didn't. You started with an ad hominem and ended with a straw man, all in the same paragraph. Nice work, champ.
You've had two opportunities how to suggest a better path, but the silence is deafening. It's clear you don't want the terrorists brought to justice.
You want me to single-handedly solve the Israeli-Palestine problem? Do you really think that’s some kind of “gotcha” moment? It’s not.
We could start with the Israelis ditching Netanyahu and electing a non-war criminal who is committed to a two state solution. That would be a good start.
You want me to single-handedly solve the Israeli-Palestine problem? Do you really think that’s some kind of “gotcha” moment? It’s not.
No, I'm specifically and repeatedly asking what to do with the terrorists. The people who murdered the babies. Not the whole conflict. The terrorists. I wrote that very clearly, and your inability to read that is entirely on you.
I would've thought that was pretty simple. If Israel can kill them without the loss of civilian life, have at it. If they can't, then they shouldn't do that.
Clear?
Since they're using children as human shields, you're arguing for them not to be brought to justice. I don't think that's a reasonable solution. They did terrible things and they should be brought to justice.
Your position is that it's fine to massacre children? If so you're a fucking ghoul. Give your head a shake.
So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all. Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation. One which you would never accept had your children been murdered. The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be given amnesty? It’s always the same with you terrorists sympathisers.
So, nothing?
Literally Israel can stop committing war crimes but somehow that is not a good enough solution for you. Gaza didn't slaughter anyone, instead they had to say goodbye to thousands of civilians, in mass graves. Israel is starving and dehydrating them, allowing diseases to spread by ignoring every call for a ceasefire. Israel is committing a genocide. Israel is repeating the atrocities of the holocaust. Palestinians are now dying in the West Bank and in Israeli prisons by the blessing of the army and government, just as Jews were disappearing and being killed on the hands of Nazi Germany. They are being demonized and dehumanized just as Jews were. We need to learn from history. Never again includes Palestinians. This is not only me speaking, but countless Jews around the world and in Israel. Israel has done so much to shame pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist Jewish peace organizations. It has done all it can to discredit and punish Palestinians. The list is so long, torture and rape, apartheid, land grabbing, etc. Then Bibi himself helped Hamas prosper as an extremist organization to now get a green light for genocide. This is the madness this world is in now.
What you are suggesting is genocidal. You are calling a population of almost 50% children terrorists and rationalizing their daily murder of Palestinians.
Four opportunities now, and you've made it clear you want to protect the terrorists. You're in the minority. They should be brought to justice.
I gave you enough time and thoughtful comments. I'm done playing the troll game. It's clear that you just want to be right rather than consider another person's viewpoint.
You try to make it look like there is no choice but Israel always had the choice to not kill.
You've had three opportunities to suggest a better path, but crickets. It's clear you don't want the terrorists to be brought to justice.
Yeah totally clear from an internet discussion.
Please stop going around accusing people of supporting terrorists. No one is doing that here on Lemmy, execpt maybe those who support Israel which is a terrorists state after breaking all these int laws.
Well if you want to protect the murderous terrorists from justice, you are a terrorist sympathiser. That's what you are.
At the very least they should be TRYING to limit civilian deaths. They're clearly not doing that much, as is evident by their invasion of the west bank as well where Hamas ISN'T.
Israel keeps saying they're going to do something then kind of scales it back. They kept knocking after they said they were going to stop, for example. No clue if they are now, but I expected a higher death toll considering population density.
Also, Hamas and IJ do have some presence in the West Bank. I have no clue how much Israel is focusing on that since media coverage is focused on Gaza, and, well, I don't fucking trust anyone.
A mere 38% would vote for Hamas, and the "attacks against civilians" thing is phrased in a way that makes it meaningless. For one: What's the motive? Is it genocidal rampage or "I want them to feel the pain they cause us?"
If you do a poll right now in Israel and ask "Are you in favour of the IDF's actions in Gaza right now" you'd get very high support for attacks on civilians. See how that works?
All you're doing there is say "The enemy is not human, they are animals, they do not deserve humanity". That that very attitude, Israeli right-wing disregard for Palestinian humanity, made them the way they are is conveniently left out. You may not realise it but you're using fascist logic.
All you’re doing there is say “The enemy is not human, they are animals, they do not deserve humanity”. That that very attitude, Israeli right-wing disregard for Palestinian humanity, made them the way they are is conveniently left out. You may not realise it but you’re using fascist logic.
I'm pretty sure you can find Kahanite documents saying essentially the same thing in the other direction. And do I have to remind you that there's currently Kahanites in the Israeli government. You don't get to complain about other people's fascists before you deal with yours at home.
Also how are you still equating Palestinians at large and Hamas.
Because Hamas is the central authority of Gaza.
They're the resident dictatorship, yes, there haven't been elections since 2006, and the reason they got into power was less about Hamas being strong but Fatah being weak because corrupt. Last Israeli elections? 2022, resulting in Netanyahu and his Kahanites. And that even though pudding is still expensive... care to justify that?
Polls also clearly show that Gazans want democracy back, that they want Hamas to hand over security to the PA, and various other things. If you want Gazans to get rid of Hamas themselves, go ahead, be my guest, give them the weapons to do so... or how else do you suppose would they be able to do it? With prayers?
Stop fucking deflecting responsibility. Clean up your own house before you complain about that of your neighbour.
Polls also clearly show that Gazans want democracy back, that they want Hamas to hand over security to the PA, and various other things.
Link em
If you want Gazans to get rid of Hamas themselves, go ahead, be my guest, give them the weapons to do so… or how else do you suppose would they be able to do it? With prayers?
Also notable is that Gazans continue to express disapproval of Hamas’ policies towards Israel. About half (53%) agree at least somewhat that “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders,” a percentage that has held steady over the last three years. 59% of Gazans also agree that Hamas should give up its armed units in favor of PA officers in Gaza. Likewise, nearly two-thirds of Gazans would agree at least somewhat with the need for Hamas to preserve the cease-fire in both Gaza and the West Bank.
Specifically, Gazans believe that Palestinians should push more against corruption in the PA and Hamas. Most (87%) of Gazans would also like Hamas and the PA to allow free and fair elections, a notable 20-point difference from West Bankers (65%) and East Jerusalemites (66%).
Already been tried, my dude, Hamas said no.
Hamas doesn't want to be disposed of? Colour me surprised, indeed /s.
Also when has Israel given weapons to Gazans to get rid of Hamas I'd like to have a source on that. Did you even read what I wrote.
Except they pretty much share the same house that can’t agree on anything.
And that's why Israel needs to have a fascist minister for national security? A guy who called for the assassination of Rabin? Like, no alternative to that?
The images show war crimes CNN. War crimes.
They're straight up razing the region into the ground. How the fuck are governments okay with this wanton destruction of people's lives and homes.
Because speaking out against Israel is very frequently (and maliciously) intentionally misconstrued as antisemitism to allow them to get away with crimes against humanity. It's been this way for decades, it's just a lot more open and obvious currently.
It's actually worse than that. For decades the media, politicians, and the Israeli government have deliberately conflated Israel, the country, with the Israeli government/leadership, the Israeli population, Judaism, the religion, and the Jewish community more broadly (including the diaspora).
So now any criticism of the Israeli government is a criticism of the country, the people, and the religion simultaneously, depending on what's most convenient.
And there's a few rather alarming types of political movements that deliberately blur the lines between the people, the state, and the leadership (and in this case the dominant religion) in order to minimize criticism and maximize loyalty...
Yes! Thank you for putting this out there. I always forget about that aspect of it, and I was actually just listening to an episode of Hood Politics (You wasn't outside part 2) that went over this and had a really good set of clips from a rabbi that expounded on this very topic.
So Cartman was right they control the world.
Very nice, succinct example of exactly what I was talking about: by blurring the line between Judaism, the Jewish people, and the Israeli state, folks like you can paint any kind of criticism of Israeli government action, their supporters in media, or allied governments, as antisemitic, thereby shutting down reasonable discussion. Truly a thought terminating comment. Well done.
Such a clear attempt to stop or totally derail conversation. I've taken to just blocking these accounts, but that's only good for me, not the wider community.
The Nazi regime was both the worst and the best thing that could happen to the Jews. It was absolutely horrific, but it's given them a seemingly infinite get out of jail card.
It's not okay, but their reasoning is:
We have to rescue out citizens who have been taken hostage.
To do that we will send in troops.
To make it safe for the troops we will level all existing structures.
Dead civilians aren't our responsibility because they are not our people.
It's ghoulish, if someone kidnapped a family and hid in the basement of my apartment, no one reasonable would support demolishing the building with people inside their homes to get at them.
Really weird to carpet bomb a country BEFORE doing anything about hostages that were taken there especially when the country is smaller than the state of Rhode Island by almost a factor of 10. Other countries have already gotten people freed, Israel was busy putting the hostages in danger.
Add on to that the REFUSAL TO ACCEPT HOSTAGES because "we don't want your dirty bargaining chips (our citizens)". Yeah, really fucking weird.
Wait, what? I haven't been following these last few days. Can you share a link?
Israel (8550 square miles) is about the size of New Jersey. Gaza (141 square miles) is half the size of New York City and the West Bank (2182 square miles) is a little smaller than Delaware or two Rhode Islands.
For the west coast Americans, Israel is bit bigger than the SF Bay Area. Gaza is three times the size of San Francisco. The West Bank is roughly the size of Sonoma and Marin counties together.
The gaza strip is 140 square miles. No ones dropping years worth of munitions on the west bank right now. All those bombs that added up to more than a year of the US bombing Afghanistan are falling in 140 square miles. You know where the bombs are dropping. Lets keep on the Afghanistan comparison. They have a quarter million square miles and got in one year what Gaza got in two weeks. Afghanistan has over 1700 times the area of the Gaza strip.
What they're doing is criminal, but I was actually a little surprised that the destruction isn't as complete as I expected. It's harder to tell though because many of the before pictures are directly top down, so you can't easily tell how tall buildings were in the before photos.
At first glance it doesn't seem that bad but the more you look the worse it gets. Almost every area of the photo is affected.
Almost every area, but at the same time it's patchy. There are buildings that seem intact right next to buildings that have been completely levelled.
If a building is next to a building that has been completely leveled it's almost certainly no longer structurally sound or safe to be in.
Yeah who the fuck thinks a bomb going off next door is gonna keep your house liveable no matter if a single wall is standing pretty good.
You can see in those photos that it's really just a few walls remaining. All that grey is the dust of everything that was burned and concrete that has been practically disintegrated. None of that is habitable unless you considered the world trade center still standing cause some of the rebar was still pointing up.
Where did I say anything like that? I merely pointed out something notable.
Now you're speaking in hyperbole. There is a range of degrees of destruction clearly visible from these photos. Far too many people are making blanket statements without really looking at things and making an accurate assessment.
The dust alone is a crazily significant yet drastically under-represented health hazard. Western countries are only just starting to recognise the harmful effects of silicosis from the workplace, particularly in construction and demolition, when the reality is it is likely that much of what was historically attributed to asbestosis is in fact more strongly linked to silicosis - both conditions involve inhaling small but sharp particles that rattle around and destroy the lungs, but it's far more likely that some silica-based substance will get airborne and then inhaled than asbestos.
Understanding that doesn't make it any less notable that some buildings remain while others are demolished. If anything, it points to the inhumanity of Israel's actions - they claim they're only targeting military targets and minimising civilian casualties, but the fallout is far, far more significant than anyone is discussing.
Look I get it, you said something off the cuff that was more shock than than substance. "Oh wow, would that the craters would have been larger by now" which everyone pretty quickly took poorly cause it's a bit insensitive while still just being stream of consciousness.And now you are trying to show that you do get it and care. I am sure you do care about people but like that level of destruction is pretty high and people are also rightfully to call it razed to the ground cause no one is living in those places anymore. It's still a massive amount of destruction. Just let it go man.Yeah wow whatever nevermind on trying to cover for his inflammatory asshole.
I've not been inflammatory here, you've come in and argued against claims I didn't make. Check your own house first before you criticise others.
Your comment has more scarecrows than a shitty early naughties B-movie.
My point has been consistent, you're trying to elicit someone to jerk yourself off over nonsense.
it's a lot more complicated than that. You and I, and some governments care for civilian structures, but terrorists do not. That's why they make their bases in the middle of populous areas.
It's not complicated at all. Bombing a residential building is a terrorist act.
It doesn't matter what you claim is hiding underneath.
How would you, enlightened Westerner, as Israel, have responded to the massacres?
It doesn't take a military strategist to know that this wasn't the right response. Terrorism is an ideological threat, it cannot be defeated or "rooted out" by conventional weapons until you kill every last person who finds it worthwhile to fight for the ideology. Out of all of the diverse peoples of the world, you might expect that the Jews would understand the gruesome impracticality of that goal.
So terrorists slaughter hundreds of your innocents, crossing over two border walls, and your response is what?
Not radicalize more people? Respond without wiping out 50% of the residential buildings?
So you'd have the Israel military go into Hamas territory, proceed to get ambushed, and still end up with dead civilians because terrorists don't care about civilian casualities?
They should have gone into gaza and tried to only kill people who shot back at them yeah. I do not care if they get ambushed and die, that is far better than a newborn in Gaza getting vaporized by a JDAM along with their entire family because Israel lied about Hamas being in their house.
You don't, but I'm pretty sure you'll understand that they do
Are you saying Hamas didn't attack Israel in the massacres?
...no? they did, that's universally undisputed. even hamas would say that.
Oh, I understand. You're saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent's homes?
Regardless, fighting terrorists in tight urban environments with civilians will always fail. The US couldn't handle it despite almost 20 years of trying, and Israel will definitely be unable to. This leaves a difficult problem, Hamas needs to be destroyed, but Hamas doesn't care about rules of engagement and likes to nestle themselves in high-civilian populations.
What is your solution here? Israel told all civilians to flee south and notified places that they are about to bomb (Though 5-20 minutes isn't much of a warning to get all of your possessions and get 10km's away.)
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
That's a nice saying. It's also a deflection from answering the question.
I don't agree with what Israel is doing, but I also don't see what an appropriate response would have been. Certainly not responding was not an option. And innocent civilians are going to be victims in any form of response.
Great question!
I would have held onto the moral high ground instead of instantly bombing civilians.
I would do everything I could to rescue the hostages, instead of ignoring them and bombing them.
I would negotiate with Palestinian leadership, offering them a path towards autonomy and freedom from their open air prison in return for handing over every single Hamas terrorist that attacked on Oct 7th.
Of course there is no magic solution. Even if we find the best possible course there will still be bloodshed and deep resentment. But with the current Israeli strategy, for every Hamas terrorist that they kill, they are creating 2 more to take their place.
Israel and the UN tried that already. Hamas said no.
Negotiating with terrorists typically does not end well. Once they realize that their methods are effective to get what they want, they will keep doing the same over and over until they ask for something that you can't give them, and then you'll look like the bad guy.
Except that is not what the poster you're replying to said. The poster said, 'negotiate with Palestinians to hand over Hamas responsible for 10/7'. That's not 'negotiating with Hamas'.
There was an ongoing peace process between Israel and the secular PLO with the Oslo Accords and then Israel stopped the process. Israel accelerated land grabs and illegal settlements, and actually PROMOTED Hamas. The PLO organizations had either pledged to not harm civilians or given up armed struggle altogether. But Israel said NO to land for peace and so why should Palestinians choose peaceful negotiations?
Who's gonna hand them over? The government? Hamas are the government.
Sadly your comment could equally apply to both sides.
The IDF has its headquarters next to the largest hospital in Tel Aviv. Are they not also using civilians as hostages?
The headquarters are 400 metres away. And the IDF didn't capture Hamas civilians.
Israel currently has thousands of Palestinians in internment camps and prisons. FOH lmao
Got any source for that at all?
But "Israel has a right to defend itself".
I love that statement has no limits.
The rebel incursions are a direct challenge to the authority and stability of the Empire. It's crucial to respond decisively to such threats.
I think it's a star wars quote from tarkin.
Can you elaborate on this please?
This is not the explanation you're looking for
It amazes me how accurate the IDF's intelligence seems to be, they seem to know every weapon stash and tunnel entrance in the whole of gaza /s
Oh no, uh, yea, they were all stashes. That house? Jihadi radio, yea. That garden? A fiendish cache of
turnipsum, bullets~~?~~Hamas is a sack of shit org for using human shields and storing their shit in civilian residences, but the IDF is absolutely meting out collective punishment to civilians using that excuse. It has happened, sure, but fuck me, this wholesale destruction is horrific. And when Guterres alludes to that fact, the screams of objection are hideous.
Things have gotten so out of hand. It is sad to see.
There was a map somewhere that showed all of Gaza and indicated damage and destroyed - they seem to be focussing on destroying various small(ish) areas pretty much to the ground.
I assume they have intel on tunnel complexes there, or just want to be able to flatten enough to have 'safe' areas inside Gaza?
It's definitely a Russia style invasion style they are going for, not caring about collateral damage at all...
Edit: I can't find the image so I don't know if it was actually reliable
I think you're referring to this Economist article which tracks the difference between October 6th and October 12th.
Not the exact map, but definitely showing the same thing (and a reputable source).
It is a huge amount of damage, but it is relatively contained (for now). I can't imagine you would feel safe in one of the undamaged areas though.
I fucking hate Israel. They're an abhorant infestation.
I would have said, "settler colonial state". What that state is doing to the Palestinians will, in the lense of history, be seen as equivalent to what the United States did to the indigenous peoples.
"Infestation" is too close to fascist antisemitic tropes and while criticism of Israel is NOT automatically antisemitic, it can be.
Yeah, fair enough. I just didn't want to call them a country. They're invaders committing a slow genocide of the Palestinian people.
Is it just me or does Gaza look like an extremely ancient abandoned since forever civilization now?
I blame both Hamas AND the Israeli Defence Force for this. The former for turning civilian infrastructure into bases, and the latter for bombing all of it. Seriously you guys?
Let the Israeli children destroy their sand castles. I'm sure they'll learn that it costs money to build more, eventually
Tough pill to swallow: Don't make tunnels under your house.
Tough pill to swallow: don't use proximity shielding as an excuse to kill civilians in one of the most dense areas in the world.
After Hamas broke through and started murdering people, I swear people just expected Israel to take it? Not react? Not retaliate? Leave? I don't understand what anyone expected here. Hamas wanted this and knew it would happen.
I mean asymmetrical warfare is a messy affair. Hamas gets new recruits who are angered about their family and homes being destroyed. Big nations typically don't win these kind of engagements in the modern era because at least to modern sensibilities we don't really want to see pointless slaughter and genocide, this isn't to advocate for it, quite far from it but historically typically you would have to be ruthless to subjugate people but thankfully modern sensibilities say that is pretty fucked. So really this will either end up another "forever" war or one of the sides will be wiped out entirely.
Yes, there are people who 100% think Israel not only should forgive and forget about Oct 7. Then there are the people who think Israelis deserve that and worse.
You realize Israel has been the aggressor for over 20 years, right? Palestine has finally gathered enough military resources to counter attack in retaliation. It's self defense at this point
So you agree with the IDF in that targeting civilians is self defense?
Or are we playing pedantic games again where we try to rationalize bad things by wearing victimized status one moment while murdering children the next? Maybe the IDF and Hamas are both responsible. Hamas aren't freedom fighters like my fellow lefties are making them out to be. They want a theonomic system. And they have one.
Wow, you know nothing about the conflict
True, Israel has actually been the aggressor for waaaaaay longer than 20 years.
Since the Gazans are using their own children as human shields, what do you suggest the Israelis do instead?
Not committing war crimes is an option. Do you not understand that?
So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all. Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation. One which you would never accept had your children been murdered. The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be left alone?
Straight to petty little barbs? I guess I upset you.
Now do Israel, they have blood on their hands too. Do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they did for funsies? That you're blind to this speaks more to your bias than your understanding of the history of this conflict.
You're so close to figuring it out, keep going. I believe in you.
Did I say that? No I didn't. You started with an ad hominem and ended with a straw man, all in the same paragraph. Nice work, champ.
You've had two opportunities how to suggest a better path, but the silence is deafening. It's clear you don't want the terrorists brought to justice.
You want me to single-handedly solve the Israeli-Palestine problem? Do you really think that’s some kind of “gotcha” moment? It’s not.
We could start with the Israelis ditching Netanyahu and electing a non-war criminal who is committed to a two state solution. That would be a good start.
No, I'm specifically and repeatedly asking what to do with the terrorists. The people who murdered the babies. Not the whole conflict. The terrorists. I wrote that very clearly, and your inability to read that is entirely on you.
I would've thought that was pretty simple. If Israel can kill them without the loss of civilian life, have at it. If they can't, then they shouldn't do that.
Clear?
Since they're using children as human shields, you're arguing for them not to be brought to justice. I don't think that's a reasonable solution. They did terrible things and they should be brought to justice.
Your position is that it's fine to massacre children? If so you're a fucking ghoul. Give your head a shake.
Copying your own comments is lazy and comes off as if you don't take them seriously.
I'd actually like to see someone answer the question, so it's kind of sad.
Not bomb the children. I think it's pretty easy.
So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all. Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation. One which you would never accept had your children been murdered. The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be given amnesty? It’s always the same with you terrorists sympathisers.
Literally Israel can stop committing war crimes but somehow that is not a good enough solution for you. Gaza didn't slaughter anyone, instead they had to say goodbye to thousands of civilians, in mass graves. Israel is starving and dehydrating them, allowing diseases to spread by ignoring every call for a ceasefire. Israel is committing a genocide. Israel is repeating the atrocities of the holocaust. Palestinians are now dying in the West Bank and in Israeli prisons by the blessing of the army and government, just as Jews were disappearing and being killed on the hands of Nazi Germany. They are being demonized and dehumanized just as Jews were. We need to learn from history. Never again includes Palestinians. This is not only me speaking, but countless Jews around the world and in Israel. Israel has done so much to shame pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist Jewish peace organizations. It has done all it can to discredit and punish Palestinians. The list is so long, torture and rape, apartheid, land grabbing, etc. Then Bibi himself helped Hamas prosper as an extremist organization to now get a green light for genocide. This is the madness this world is in now.
What you are suggesting is genocidal. You are calling a population of almost 50% children terrorists and rationalizing their daily murder of Palestinians.
Four opportunities now, and you've made it clear you want to protect the terrorists. You're in the minority. They should be brought to justice.
I gave you enough time and thoughtful comments. I'm done playing the troll game. It's clear that you just want to be right rather than consider another person's viewpoint.
That ratio though.
You try to make it look like there is no choice but Israel always had the choice to not kill.
You've had three opportunities to suggest a better path, but crickets. It's clear you don't want the terrorists to be brought to justice.
Yeah totally clear from an internet discussion.
Please stop going around accusing people of supporting terrorists. No one is doing that here on Lemmy, execpt maybe those who support Israel which is a terrorists state after breaking all these int laws.
Well if you want to protect the murderous terrorists from justice, you are a terrorist sympathiser. That's what you are.
At the very least they should be TRYING to limit civilian deaths. They're clearly not doing that much, as is evident by their invasion of the west bank as well where Hamas ISN'T.
Also: https://online.anyflip.com/nuvqm/zrwp/mobile/index.html
Israel keeps saying they're going to do something then kind of scales it back. They kept knocking after they said they were going to stop, for example. No clue if they are now, but I expected a higher death toll considering population density.
Also, Hamas and IJ do have some presence in the West Bank. I have no clue how much Israel is focusing on that since media coverage is focused on Gaza, and, well, I don't fucking trust anyone.
AP report describing Israeli arrests of 480 Hamas members in the West Bank
Israeli reports are claiming most of those killed in the West Bank were engaging in active combat, and are known members of Hamas (or PIJ)
Liars are lying.
Regular Gazans are not using their children as human shields. Hamas is using children as human shields.
Almost 70% of Gazans support armed attacks on Israeli civilians. Most Gazans are terrorists or terrorist supporters. Nothing “regular” about that. The majority of them are clearly either using children or support using children as human shields.
A mere 38% would vote for Hamas, and the "attacks against civilians" thing is phrased in a way that makes it meaningless. For one: What's the motive? Is it genocidal rampage or "I want them to feel the pain they cause us?"
If you do a poll right now in Israel and ask "Are you in favour of the IDF's actions in Gaza right now" you'd get very high support for attacks on civilians. See how that works?
All you're doing there is say "The enemy is not human, they are animals, they do not deserve humanity". That that very attitude, Israeli right-wing disregard for Palestinian humanity, made them the way they are is conveniently left out. You may not realise it but you're using fascist logic.
The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.
I'm pretty sure you can find Kahanite documents saying essentially the same thing in the other direction. And do I have to remind you that there's currently Kahanites in the Israeli government. You don't get to complain about other people's fascists before you deal with yours at home.
Also how are you still equating Palestinians at large and Hamas.
Because Hamas is the central authority of Gaza.
They're the resident dictatorship, yes, there haven't been elections since 2006, and the reason they got into power was less about Hamas being strong but Fatah being weak because corrupt. Last Israeli elections? 2022, resulting in Netanyahu and his Kahanites. And that even though pudding is still expensive... care to justify that?
Polls also clearly show that Gazans want democracy back, that they want Hamas to hand over security to the PA, and various other things. If you want Gazans to get rid of Hamas themselves, go ahead, be my guest, give them the weapons to do so... or how else do you suppose would they be able to do it? With prayers?
Stop fucking deflecting responsibility. Clean up your own house before you complain about that of your neighbour.
Link em
Already been tried, my dude, Hamas said no.
Except they pretty much share the same house that can't agree on anything.
E.g. here. Snippets:
Hamas doesn't want to be disposed of? Colour me surprised, indeed /s.
Also when has Israel given weapons to Gazans to get rid of Hamas I'd like to have a source on that. Did you even read what I wrote.
And that's why Israel needs to have a fascist minister for national security? A guy who called for the assassination of Rabin? Like, no alternative to that?
@JasSmith @snek @dingleberry your commentary is disgusting
Thanks for being so informative lol
@snek not you, Jas