it's a lot more complicated than that. You and I, and some governments care for civilian structures, but terrorists do not. That's why they make their bases in the middle of populous areas.
It's not complicated at all. Bombing a residential building is a terrorist act.
It doesn't matter what you claim is hiding underneath.
How would you, enlightened Westerner, as Israel, have responded to the massacres?
It doesn't take a military strategist to know that this wasn't the right response. Terrorism is an ideological threat, it cannot be defeated or "rooted out" by conventional weapons until you kill every last person who finds it worthwhile to fight for the ideology. Out of all of the diverse peoples of the world, you might expect that the Jews would understand the gruesome impracticality of that goal.
So terrorists slaughter hundreds of your innocents, crossing over two border walls, and your response is what?
Not radicalize more people? Respond without wiping out 50% of the residential buildings?
So you'd have the Israel military go into Hamas territory, proceed to get ambushed, and still end up with dead civilians because terrorists don't care about civilian casualities?
They should have gone into gaza and tried to only kill people who shot back at them yeah. I do not care if they get ambushed and die, that is far better than a newborn in Gaza getting vaporized by a JDAM along with their entire family because Israel lied about Hamas being in their house.
I do not care if they get ambushed and die
You don't, but I'm pretty sure you'll understand that they do
Are you saying Hamas didn't attack Israel in the massacres?
...no? they did, that's universally undisputed. even hamas would say that.
Oh, I understand. You're saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent's homes?
Regardless, fighting terrorists in tight urban environments with civilians will always fail. The US couldn't handle it despite almost 20 years of trying, and Israel will definitely be unable to. This leaves a difficult problem, Hamas needs to be destroyed, but Hamas doesn't care about rules of engagement and likes to nestle themselves in high-civilian populations.
What is your solution here? Israel told all civilians to flee south and notified places that they are about to bomb (Though 5-20 minutes isn't much of a warning to get all of your possessions and get 10km's away.)
You’re saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent’s homes?
Yes, and until they provide evidence for every single building that they bombed in Gaza and Lebanon and the west bank, I will continue to think so.
Hamas needs to be destroyed
Sure, and the way to do that is to undermine their support by a) not bombing innocents in gaza and b) withdrawing settlements in the west bank to show Palestinians that the PA is the path to freedom, not hamas. Not radicalizing people is how you get rid of radical terrorist groups.
If Israel really wants the military solution, they can throw soldiers at urban combat, but it's probably the 2nd worst solution. Or maybe the 1st, considering how Israeli troops have a track record of deliberately targeting civilians, including children medics and journalists.
Israel told all civilians to flee south and notify places that they are about to bomb
There are so many things wrong with this. Warning about committing war crimes doesn't make them ok. They also stopped doing roof knocks, so no more warning. Regardless, Israel continues to bomb the south, they're bombing everywhere. They're even bombing ambulances.
Yes, and until they provide evidence for every single building that they bombed in Gaza and Lebanon and the west bank, I will continue to think so.
Well, I like to think neutrally since you only have their word to take for granted. Or you can take Hamas' word. But considering Israel is under scrutiny by the world stage, I think their word is more reputable.
Sure, and the way to do that is to undermine their support by a) not bombing innocents in gaza and b) withdrawing settlements in the west bank to show Palestinians that the PA is the path to freedom, not hamas. Not radicalizing people is how you get rid of radical terrorist groups.
And what is Israel to do while Hamas gathers forces and continues to attack?
If Israel really wants the military solution, they can throw soldiers at urban combat, but it’s probably the 2nd worst solution. Or maybe the 1st, considering how Israeli troops have a track record of deliberately targeting civilians, including children medics and journalists.
As does Hamas.
Warning about committing war crimes doesn’t make them ok.
Oooh, now you care about war crimes? Where were you when Hamas were performing war crimes?
That's a nice saying. It's also a deflection from answering the question.
I don't agree with what Israel is doing, but I also don't see what an appropriate response would have been. Certainly not responding was not an option. And innocent civilians are going to be victims in any form of response.
I would have held onto the moral high ground instead of instantly bombing civilians.
I would do everything I could to rescue the hostages, instead of ignoring them and bombing them.
I would negotiate with Palestinian leadership, offering them a path towards autonomy and freedom from their open air prison in return for handing over every single Hamas terrorist that attacked on Oct 7th.
Of course there is no magic solution. Even if we find the best possible course there will still be bloodshed and deep resentment. But with the current Israeli strategy, for every Hamas terrorist that they kill, they are creating 2 more to take their place.
I would negotiate with Palestinian leadership, offering them a path towards autonomy and freedom
Israel and the UN tried that already. Hamas said no.
Negotiating with terrorists typically does not end well. Once they realize that their methods are effective to get what they want, they will keep doing the same over and over until they ask for something that you can't give them, and then you'll look like the bad guy.
Sadly your comment could equally apply to both sides.
Except that is not what the poster you're replying to said. The poster said, 'negotiate with Palestinians to hand over Hamas responsible for 10/7'. That's not 'negotiating with Hamas'.
There was an ongoing peace process between Israel and the secular PLO with the Oslo Accords and then Israel stopped the process. Israel accelerated land grabs and illegal settlements, and actually PROMOTED Hamas. The PLO organizations had either pledged to not harm civilians or given up armed struggle altogether. But Israel said NO to land for peace and so why should Palestinians choose peaceful negotiations?
Who's gonna hand them over? The government? Hamas are the government.
it's a lot more complicated than that. You and I, and some governments care for civilian structures, but terrorists do not. That's why they make their bases in the middle of populous areas.
It's not complicated at all. Bombing a residential building is a terrorist act.
It doesn't matter what you claim is hiding underneath.
How would you, enlightened Westerner, as Israel, have responded to the massacres?
It doesn't take a military strategist to know that this wasn't the right response. Terrorism is an ideological threat, it cannot be defeated or "rooted out" by conventional weapons until you kill every last person who finds it worthwhile to fight for the ideology. Out of all of the diverse peoples of the world, you might expect that the Jews would understand the gruesome impracticality of that goal.
So terrorists slaughter hundreds of your innocents, crossing over two border walls, and your response is what?
Not radicalize more people? Respond without wiping out 50% of the residential buildings?
So you'd have the Israel military go into Hamas territory, proceed to get ambushed, and still end up with dead civilians because terrorists don't care about civilian casualities?
They should have gone into gaza and tried to only kill people who shot back at them yeah. I do not care if they get ambushed and die, that is far better than a newborn in Gaza getting vaporized by a JDAM along with their entire family because Israel lied about Hamas being in their house.
You don't, but I'm pretty sure you'll understand that they do
Are you saying Hamas didn't attack Israel in the massacres?
...no? they did, that's universally undisputed. even hamas would say that.
Oh, I understand. You're saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent's homes?
Regardless, fighting terrorists in tight urban environments with civilians will always fail. The US couldn't handle it despite almost 20 years of trying, and Israel will definitely be unable to. This leaves a difficult problem, Hamas needs to be destroyed, but Hamas doesn't care about rules of engagement and likes to nestle themselves in high-civilian populations.
What is your solution here? Israel told all civilians to flee south and notified places that they are about to bomb (Though 5-20 minutes isn't much of a warning to get all of your possessions and get 10km's away.)
Yes, and until they provide evidence for every single building that they bombed in Gaza and Lebanon and the west bank, I will continue to think so.
Sure, and the way to do that is to undermine their support by a) not bombing innocents in gaza and b) withdrawing settlements in the west bank to show Palestinians that the PA is the path to freedom, not hamas. Not radicalizing people is how you get rid of radical terrorist groups.
If Israel really wants the military solution, they can throw soldiers at urban combat, but it's probably the 2nd worst solution. Or maybe the 1st, considering how Israeli troops have a track record of deliberately targeting civilians, including children medics and journalists.
There are so many things wrong with this. Warning about committing war crimes doesn't make them ok. They also stopped doing roof knocks, so no more warning. Regardless, Israel continues to bomb the south, they're bombing everywhere. They're even bombing ambulances.
Well, I like to think neutrally since you only have their word to take for granted. Or you can take Hamas' word. But considering Israel is under scrutiny by the world stage, I think their word is more reputable.
And what is Israel to do while Hamas gathers forces and continues to attack?
As does Hamas.
Oooh, now you care about war crimes? Where were you when Hamas were performing war crimes?
Source please.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
That's a nice saying. It's also a deflection from answering the question.
I don't agree with what Israel is doing, but I also don't see what an appropriate response would have been. Certainly not responding was not an option. And innocent civilians are going to be victims in any form of response.
Great question!
I would have held onto the moral high ground instead of instantly bombing civilians.
I would do everything I could to rescue the hostages, instead of ignoring them and bombing them.
I would negotiate with Palestinian leadership, offering them a path towards autonomy and freedom from their open air prison in return for handing over every single Hamas terrorist that attacked on Oct 7th.
Of course there is no magic solution. Even if we find the best possible course there will still be bloodshed and deep resentment. But with the current Israeli strategy, for every Hamas terrorist that they kill, they are creating 2 more to take their place.
Israel and the UN tried that already. Hamas said no.
Negotiating with terrorists typically does not end well. Once they realize that their methods are effective to get what they want, they will keep doing the same over and over until they ask for something that you can't give them, and then you'll look like the bad guy.
Sadly your comment could equally apply to both sides.
Except that is not what the poster you're replying to said. The poster said, 'negotiate with Palestinians to hand over Hamas responsible for 10/7'. That's not 'negotiating with Hamas'.
There was an ongoing peace process between Israel and the secular PLO with the Oslo Accords and then Israel stopped the process. Israel accelerated land grabs and illegal settlements, and actually PROMOTED Hamas. The PLO organizations had either pledged to not harm civilians or given up armed struggle altogether. But Israel said NO to land for peace and so why should Palestinians choose peaceful negotiations?
Who's gonna hand them over? The government? Hamas are the government.
The IDF has its headquarters next to the largest hospital in Tel Aviv. Are they not also using civilians as hostages?
The headquarters are 400 metres away. And the IDF didn't capture Hamas civilians.
Israel currently has thousands of Palestinians in internment camps and prisons. FOH lmao
Got any source for that at all?