They're straight up razing the region into the ground. How the fuck are governments okay with this wanton destruction of people's lives and homes.
Because speaking out against Israel is very frequently (and maliciously) intentionally misconstrued as antisemitism to allow them to get away with crimes against humanity. It's been this way for decades, it's just a lot more open and obvious currently.
It's actually worse than that. For decades the media, politicians, and the Israeli government have deliberately conflated Israel, the country, with the Israeli government/leadership, the Israeli population, Judaism, the religion, and the Jewish community more broadly (including the diaspora).
So now any criticism of the Israeli government is a criticism of the country, the people, and the religion simultaneously, depending on what's most convenient.
And there's a few rather alarming types of political movements that deliberately blur the lines between the people, the state, and the leadership (and in this case the dominant religion) in order to minimize criticism and maximize loyalty...
Yes! Thank you for putting this out there. I always forget about that aspect of it, and I was actually just listening to an episode of Hood Politics (You wasn't outside part 2) that went over this and had a really good set of clips from a rabbi that expounded on this very topic.
So Cartman was right they control the world.
Very nice, succinct example of exactly what I was talking about: by blurring the line between Judaism, the Jewish people, and the Israeli state, folks like you can paint any kind of criticism of Israeli government action, their supporters in media, or allied governments, as antisemitic, thereby shutting down reasonable discussion. Truly a thought terminating comment. Well done.
Such a clear attempt to stop or totally derail conversation. I've taken to just blocking these accounts, but that's only good for me, not the wider community.
The Nazi regime was both the worst and the best thing that could happen to the Jews. It was absolutely horrific, but it's given them a seemingly infinite get out of jail card.
It's not okay, but their reasoning is:
We have to rescue out citizens who have been taken hostage.
To do that we will send in troops.
To make it safe for the troops we will level all existing structures.
Dead civilians aren't our responsibility because they are not our people.
It's ghoulish, if someone kidnapped a family and hid in the basement of my apartment, no one reasonable would support demolishing the building with people inside their homes to get at them.
Really weird to carpet bomb a country BEFORE doing anything about hostages that were taken there especially when the country is smaller than the state of Rhode Island by almost a factor of 10. Other countries have already gotten people freed, Israel was busy putting the hostages in danger.
Add on to that the REFUSAL TO ACCEPT HOSTAGES because "we don't want your dirty bargaining chips (our citizens)". Yeah, really fucking weird.
Wait, what? I haven't been following these last few days. Can you share a link?
Israel (8550 square miles) is about the size of New Jersey. Gaza (141 square miles) is half the size of New York City and the West Bank (2182 square miles) is a little smaller than Delaware or two Rhode Islands.
For the west coast Americans, Israel is bit bigger than the SF Bay Area. Gaza is three times the size of San Francisco. The West Bank is roughly the size of Sonoma and Marin counties together.
The gaza strip is 140 square miles. No ones dropping years worth of munitions on the west bank right now. All those bombs that added up to more than a year of the US bombing Afghanistan are falling in 140 square miles. You know where the bombs are dropping. Lets keep on the Afghanistan comparison. They have a quarter million square miles and got in one year what Gaza got in two weeks. Afghanistan has over 1700 times the area of the Gaza strip.
What they're doing is criminal, but I was actually a little surprised that the destruction isn't as complete as I expected. It's harder to tell though because many of the before pictures are directly top down, so you can't easily tell how tall buildings were in the before photos.
At first glance it doesn't seem that bad but the more you look the worse it gets. Almost every area of the photo is affected.
Almost every area, but at the same time it's patchy. There are buildings that seem intact right next to buildings that have been completely levelled.
If a building is next to a building that has been completely leveled it's almost certainly no longer structurally sound or safe to be in.
Yeah who the fuck thinks a bomb going off next door is gonna keep your house liveable no matter if a single wall is standing pretty good.
You can see in those photos that it's really just a few walls remaining. All that grey is the dust of everything that was burned and concrete that has been practically disintegrated. None of that is habitable unless you considered the world trade center still standing cause some of the rebar was still pointing up.
Yeah who the fuck thinks a bomb going off next door is gonna keep your house liveable no matter if a single wall is standing pretty good.
Where did I say anything like that? I merely pointed out something notable.
You can see in those photos that it’s really just a few walls remaining.
Now you're speaking in hyperbole. There is a range of degrees of destruction clearly visible from these photos. Far too many people are making blanket statements without really looking at things and making an accurate assessment.
The dust alone is a crazily significant yet drastically under-represented health hazard. Western countries are only just starting to recognise the harmful effects of silicosis from the workplace, particularly in construction and demolition, when the reality is it is likely that much of what was historically attributed to asbestosis is in fact more strongly linked to silicosis - both conditions involve inhaling small but sharp particles that rattle around and destroy the lungs, but it's far more likely that some silica-based substance will get airborne and then inhaled than asbestos.
Understanding that doesn't make it any less notable that some buildings remain while others are demolished. If anything, it points to the inhumanity of Israel's actions - they claim they're only targeting military targets and minimising civilian casualties, but the fallout is far, far more significant than anyone is discussing.
Look I get it, you said something off the cuff that was more shock than than substance. "Oh wow, would that the craters would have been larger by now" which everyone pretty quickly took poorly cause it's a bit insensitive while still just being stream of consciousness.
And now you are trying to show that you do get it and care. I am sure you do care about people but like that level of destruction is pretty high and people are also rightfully to call it razed to the ground cause no one is living in those places anymore. It's still a massive amount of destruction. Just let it go man.
Yeah wow whatever nevermind on trying to cover for his inflammatory asshole.
I've not been inflammatory here, you've come in and argued against claims I didn't make. Check your own house first before you criticise others.
Your comment has more scarecrows than a shitty early naughties B-movie.
My point has been consistent, you're trying to elicit someone to jerk yourself off over nonsense.
it's a lot more complicated than that. You and I, and some governments care for civilian structures, but terrorists do not. That's why they make their bases in the middle of populous areas.
It's not complicated at all. Bombing a residential building is a terrorist act.
It doesn't matter what you claim is hiding underneath.
How would you, enlightened Westerner, as Israel, have responded to the massacres?
It doesn't take a military strategist to know that this wasn't the right response. Terrorism is an ideological threat, it cannot be defeated or "rooted out" by conventional weapons until you kill every last person who finds it worthwhile to fight for the ideology. Out of all of the diverse peoples of the world, you might expect that the Jews would understand the gruesome impracticality of that goal.
So terrorists slaughter hundreds of your innocents, crossing over two border walls, and your response is what?
Not radicalize more people? Respond without wiping out 50% of the residential buildings?
So you'd have the Israel military go into Hamas territory, proceed to get ambushed, and still end up with dead civilians because terrorists don't care about civilian casualities?
They should have gone into gaza and tried to only kill people who shot back at them yeah. I do not care if they get ambushed and die, that is far better than a newborn in Gaza getting vaporized by a JDAM along with their entire family because Israel lied about Hamas being in their house.
I do not care if they get ambushed and die
You don't, but I'm pretty sure you'll understand that they do
Are you saying Hamas didn't attack Israel in the massacres?
...no? they did, that's universally undisputed. even hamas would say that.
Oh, I understand. You're saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent's homes?
Regardless, fighting terrorists in tight urban environments with civilians will always fail. The US couldn't handle it despite almost 20 years of trying, and Israel will definitely be unable to. This leaves a difficult problem, Hamas needs to be destroyed, but Hamas doesn't care about rules of engagement and likes to nestle themselves in high-civilian populations.
What is your solution here? Israel told all civilians to flee south and notified places that they are about to bomb (Though 5-20 minutes isn't much of a warning to get all of your possessions and get 10km's away.)
You’re saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent’s homes?
Yes, and until they provide evidence for every single building that they bombed in Gaza and Lebanon and the west bank, I will continue to think so.
Hamas needs to be destroyed
Sure, and the way to do that is to undermine their support by a) not bombing innocents in gaza and b) withdrawing settlements in the west bank to show Palestinians that the PA is the path to freedom, not hamas. Not radicalizing people is how you get rid of radical terrorist groups.
If Israel really wants the military solution, they can throw soldiers at urban combat, but it's probably the 2nd worst solution. Or maybe the 1st, considering how Israeli troops have a track record of deliberately targeting civilians, including children medics and journalists.
Israel told all civilians to flee south and notify places that they are about to bomb
There are so many things wrong with this. Warning about committing war crimes doesn't make them ok. They also stopped doing roof knocks, so no more warning. Regardless, Israel continues to bomb the south, they're bombing everywhere. They're even bombing ambulances.
That's a nice saying. It's also a deflection from answering the question.
I don't agree with what Israel is doing, but I also don't see what an appropriate response would have been. Certainly not responding was not an option. And innocent civilians are going to be victims in any form of response.
I would have held onto the moral high ground instead of instantly bombing civilians.
I would do everything I could to rescue the hostages, instead of ignoring them and bombing them.
I would negotiate with Palestinian leadership, offering them a path towards autonomy and freedom from their open air prison in return for handing over every single Hamas terrorist that attacked on Oct 7th.
Of course there is no magic solution. Even if we find the best possible course there will still be bloodshed and deep resentment. But with the current Israeli strategy, for every Hamas terrorist that they kill, they are creating 2 more to take their place.
I would negotiate with Palestinian leadership, offering them a path towards autonomy and freedom
Israel and the UN tried that already. Hamas said no.
Negotiating with terrorists typically does not end well. Once they realize that their methods are effective to get what they want, they will keep doing the same over and over until they ask for something that you can't give them, and then you'll look like the bad guy.
Sadly your comment could equally apply to both sides.
Except that is not what the poster you're replying to said. The poster said, 'negotiate with Palestinians to hand over Hamas responsible for 10/7'. That's not 'negotiating with Hamas'.
There was an ongoing peace process between Israel and the secular PLO with the Oslo Accords and then Israel stopped the process. Israel accelerated land grabs and illegal settlements, and actually PROMOTED Hamas. The PLO organizations had either pledged to not harm civilians or given up armed struggle altogether. But Israel said NO to land for peace and so why should Palestinians choose peaceful negotiations?
Who's gonna hand them over? The government? Hamas are the government.
They're straight up razing the region into the ground. How the fuck are governments okay with this wanton destruction of people's lives and homes.
Because speaking out against Israel is very frequently (and maliciously) intentionally misconstrued as antisemitism to allow them to get away with crimes against humanity. It's been this way for decades, it's just a lot more open and obvious currently.
It's actually worse than that. For decades the media, politicians, and the Israeli government have deliberately conflated Israel, the country, with the Israeli government/leadership, the Israeli population, Judaism, the religion, and the Jewish community more broadly (including the diaspora).
So now any criticism of the Israeli government is a criticism of the country, the people, and the religion simultaneously, depending on what's most convenient.
And there's a few rather alarming types of political movements that deliberately blur the lines between the people, the state, and the leadership (and in this case the dominant religion) in order to minimize criticism and maximize loyalty...
Yes! Thank you for putting this out there. I always forget about that aspect of it, and I was actually just listening to an episode of Hood Politics (You wasn't outside part 2) that went over this and had a really good set of clips from a rabbi that expounded on this very topic.
So Cartman was right they control the world.
Very nice, succinct example of exactly what I was talking about: by blurring the line between Judaism, the Jewish people, and the Israeli state, folks like you can paint any kind of criticism of Israeli government action, their supporters in media, or allied governments, as antisemitic, thereby shutting down reasonable discussion. Truly a thought terminating comment. Well done.
Such a clear attempt to stop or totally derail conversation. I've taken to just blocking these accounts, but that's only good for me, not the wider community.
The Nazi regime was both the worst and the best thing that could happen to the Jews. It was absolutely horrific, but it's given them a seemingly infinite get out of jail card.
It's not okay, but their reasoning is:
We have to rescue out citizens who have been taken hostage.
To do that we will send in troops.
To make it safe for the troops we will level all existing structures.
Dead civilians aren't our responsibility because they are not our people.
It's ghoulish, if someone kidnapped a family and hid in the basement of my apartment, no one reasonable would support demolishing the building with people inside their homes to get at them.
Really weird to carpet bomb a country BEFORE doing anything about hostages that were taken there especially when the country is smaller than the state of Rhode Island by almost a factor of 10. Other countries have already gotten people freed, Israel was busy putting the hostages in danger.
Add on to that the REFUSAL TO ACCEPT HOSTAGES because "we don't want your dirty bargaining chips (our citizens)". Yeah, really fucking weird.
Wait, what? I haven't been following these last few days. Can you share a link?
Israel (8550 square miles) is about the size of New Jersey. Gaza (141 square miles) is half the size of New York City and the West Bank (2182 square miles) is a little smaller than Delaware or two Rhode Islands.
For the west coast Americans, Israel is bit bigger than the SF Bay Area. Gaza is three times the size of San Francisco. The West Bank is roughly the size of Sonoma and Marin counties together.
The gaza strip is 140 square miles. No ones dropping years worth of munitions on the west bank right now. All those bombs that added up to more than a year of the US bombing Afghanistan are falling in 140 square miles. You know where the bombs are dropping. Lets keep on the Afghanistan comparison. They have a quarter million square miles and got in one year what Gaza got in two weeks. Afghanistan has over 1700 times the area of the Gaza strip.
What they're doing is criminal, but I was actually a little surprised that the destruction isn't as complete as I expected. It's harder to tell though because many of the before pictures are directly top down, so you can't easily tell how tall buildings were in the before photos.
At first glance it doesn't seem that bad but the more you look the worse it gets. Almost every area of the photo is affected.
Almost every area, but at the same time it's patchy. There are buildings that seem intact right next to buildings that have been completely levelled.
If a building is next to a building that has been completely leveled it's almost certainly no longer structurally sound or safe to be in.
Yeah who the fuck thinks a bomb going off next door is gonna keep your house liveable no matter if a single wall is standing pretty good.
You can see in those photos that it's really just a few walls remaining. All that grey is the dust of everything that was burned and concrete that has been practically disintegrated. None of that is habitable unless you considered the world trade center still standing cause some of the rebar was still pointing up.
Where did I say anything like that? I merely pointed out something notable.
Now you're speaking in hyperbole. There is a range of degrees of destruction clearly visible from these photos. Far too many people are making blanket statements without really looking at things and making an accurate assessment.
The dust alone is a crazily significant yet drastically under-represented health hazard. Western countries are only just starting to recognise the harmful effects of silicosis from the workplace, particularly in construction and demolition, when the reality is it is likely that much of what was historically attributed to asbestosis is in fact more strongly linked to silicosis - both conditions involve inhaling small but sharp particles that rattle around and destroy the lungs, but it's far more likely that some silica-based substance will get airborne and then inhaled than asbestos.
Understanding that doesn't make it any less notable that some buildings remain while others are demolished. If anything, it points to the inhumanity of Israel's actions - they claim they're only targeting military targets and minimising civilian casualties, but the fallout is far, far more significant than anyone is discussing.
Look I get it, you said something off the cuff that was more shock than than substance. "Oh wow, would that the craters would have been larger by now" which everyone pretty quickly took poorly cause it's a bit insensitive while still just being stream of consciousness.And now you are trying to show that you do get it and care. I am sure you do care about people but like that level of destruction is pretty high and people are also rightfully to call it razed to the ground cause no one is living in those places anymore. It's still a massive amount of destruction. Just let it go man.Yeah wow whatever nevermind on trying to cover for his inflammatory asshole.
I've not been inflammatory here, you've come in and argued against claims I didn't make. Check your own house first before you criticise others.
Your comment has more scarecrows than a shitty early naughties B-movie.
My point has been consistent, you're trying to elicit someone to jerk yourself off over nonsense.
it's a lot more complicated than that. You and I, and some governments care for civilian structures, but terrorists do not. That's why they make their bases in the middle of populous areas.
It's not complicated at all. Bombing a residential building is a terrorist act.
It doesn't matter what you claim is hiding underneath.
How would you, enlightened Westerner, as Israel, have responded to the massacres?
It doesn't take a military strategist to know that this wasn't the right response. Terrorism is an ideological threat, it cannot be defeated or "rooted out" by conventional weapons until you kill every last person who finds it worthwhile to fight for the ideology. Out of all of the diverse peoples of the world, you might expect that the Jews would understand the gruesome impracticality of that goal.
So terrorists slaughter hundreds of your innocents, crossing over two border walls, and your response is what?
Not radicalize more people? Respond without wiping out 50% of the residential buildings?
So you'd have the Israel military go into Hamas territory, proceed to get ambushed, and still end up with dead civilians because terrorists don't care about civilian casualities?
They should have gone into gaza and tried to only kill people who shot back at them yeah. I do not care if they get ambushed and die, that is far better than a newborn in Gaza getting vaporized by a JDAM along with their entire family because Israel lied about Hamas being in their house.
You don't, but I'm pretty sure you'll understand that they do
Are you saying Hamas didn't attack Israel in the massacres?
...no? they did, that's universally undisputed. even hamas would say that.
Oh, I understand. You're saying that Israel is lying that Hamas is inside the innocent's homes?
Regardless, fighting terrorists in tight urban environments with civilians will always fail. The US couldn't handle it despite almost 20 years of trying, and Israel will definitely be unable to. This leaves a difficult problem, Hamas needs to be destroyed, but Hamas doesn't care about rules of engagement and likes to nestle themselves in high-civilian populations.
What is your solution here? Israel told all civilians to flee south and notified places that they are about to bomb (Though 5-20 minutes isn't much of a warning to get all of your possessions and get 10km's away.)
Yes, and until they provide evidence for every single building that they bombed in Gaza and Lebanon and the west bank, I will continue to think so.
Sure, and the way to do that is to undermine their support by a) not bombing innocents in gaza and b) withdrawing settlements in the west bank to show Palestinians that the PA is the path to freedom, not hamas. Not radicalizing people is how you get rid of radical terrorist groups.
If Israel really wants the military solution, they can throw soldiers at urban combat, but it's probably the 2nd worst solution. Or maybe the 1st, considering how Israeli troops have a track record of deliberately targeting civilians, including children medics and journalists.
There are so many things wrong with this. Warning about committing war crimes doesn't make them ok. They also stopped doing roof knocks, so no more warning. Regardless, Israel continues to bomb the south, they're bombing everywhere. They're even bombing ambulances.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
That's a nice saying. It's also a deflection from answering the question.
I don't agree with what Israel is doing, but I also don't see what an appropriate response would have been. Certainly not responding was not an option. And innocent civilians are going to be victims in any form of response.
Great question!
I would have held onto the moral high ground instead of instantly bombing civilians.
I would do everything I could to rescue the hostages, instead of ignoring them and bombing them.
I would negotiate with Palestinian leadership, offering them a path towards autonomy and freedom from their open air prison in return for handing over every single Hamas terrorist that attacked on Oct 7th.
Of course there is no magic solution. Even if we find the best possible course there will still be bloodshed and deep resentment. But with the current Israeli strategy, for every Hamas terrorist that they kill, they are creating 2 more to take their place.
Israel and the UN tried that already. Hamas said no.
Negotiating with terrorists typically does not end well. Once they realize that their methods are effective to get what they want, they will keep doing the same over and over until they ask for something that you can't give them, and then you'll look like the bad guy.
Sadly your comment could equally apply to both sides.
Except that is not what the poster you're replying to said. The poster said, 'negotiate with Palestinians to hand over Hamas responsible for 10/7'. That's not 'negotiating with Hamas'.
There was an ongoing peace process between Israel and the secular PLO with the Oslo Accords and then Israel stopped the process. Israel accelerated land grabs and illegal settlements, and actually PROMOTED Hamas. The PLO organizations had either pledged to not harm civilians or given up armed struggle altogether. But Israel said NO to land for peace and so why should Palestinians choose peaceful negotiations?
Who's gonna hand them over? The government? Hamas are the government.
The IDF has its headquarters next to the largest hospital in Tel Aviv. Are they not also using civilians as hostages?
The headquarters are 400 metres away. And the IDF didn't capture Hamas civilians.
Israel currently has thousands of Palestinians in internment camps and prisons. FOH lmao
Got any source for that at all?